Brainwashing/Cult

[broken_halo]

hmm

 

[James Blandings]

I may not be totally clear on what you mean by brainwashing, so please correct me if my comments are off the track, but the bottom line, in my opinion, is that anything that might be described as brainwashing would be in opposition to the idea of consent that we hold to so strongly in BDSM. If a person is not capable of making their own decisions they are not able to consent, and therefore, a situation where a person is brainwashed would not properly be considered BDSM.

 

[Tyjord]

Brainwashing

While it is true that consentual play is the only way to go, could it not be considered a form of brainwashing. Are the players not being "conditioned" (read as trained, if you will) much the way a pet is trained. True, we enjoy the activities we partake in, but with every experience that goes a bit farther, introduces us to something new, are we not being conditioned to accept it. Have you ever been rewarded for doing something you were unsure of?

It's a complicated topic. Brainwashing, conditioning, training, even interrogation, all seem to be part of the same genre. One could argue that the only difference is the cultural connotations that come with each word. Brainwashing is not something that we commonly associate with sexuality, nor is conditioning. However, call it training, and you've got yourself an erotic fantasy.

Personally, I find that brainwashing scenarios in movies and such, often lead to a wealth of bondage potential. Stories involving cults usually provide lots of opportunity as the subject is bound while being brainwashed and conditioned to accept their new life, then later, the individual is kept restrained by friends and loved ones while being deprogrammed (nothing better than being bound and gagged "for your own good")

Y'know, I had a specific point I wanted to make, but I don't think it came out too clearly.
Sorry if I just ended up babbling.
Actually, this thread has given me new things to think about, as a story I'm working on now involves something that could be interpreted as brainwashing. Hmmmm...

 

[cymbidia]

I have had some trouble composing my thought while musing over the fine line between a long slow consensual acceptance of that which is not inherently erotically appealing because i want to please my Dominant and the harshness and anger of the word brainwashing.

When does the good one become the bad one?

How does one know?

For instance: before MS, my last important Dominant, i never did any real piercing play. Nothing major, nothing of any lasting importance, and -certainly!- nothing at all with larger diameter needles.

However, within six months of my full submission to him, i was not only participating gladly, i was finding the whole thing intensely erotic. (Read all about it! http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=12281)

Was i brainwashed?
Was it a consensual growth experience?

How did it happen that i went from pretty overtly disliking anything to do with sharp stuff to eagerly playing, over and over and over, with large needles and rings and bars and the like, some of which remained in my skin for extended periods of time - like months or more than a year?

Where's the line between the ache and need to pleas our Dominant and be found pleasing by them - and being pushed into something because we want so much to please them?

It's all well and good to sit here, safely in our computer chairs, safely clothed, safely not facing our Dominant, and speak the words we all know are coming: SSC!

It's our mantra.
SSC!
If it's not SSC then it's not "good" BDSM.

But when you're Out There speaking to your Dominant face to face and they want and ache and need something from you...

Over time.

Over and over.

And they really do care for you.

Then where's the line?
What's the difference between SSC assent and being pushed, oh so lovingly, oh so slowly, into something new different strange... scary? What's the difference between wanting and needing and aching to have one's limits pushed by one's Dominant... and really being pushed there?

Where's that line?

I'm in an odd mood tonight.
Unsure.
Hesitant.
Good thing no there's no Dominant in my life to ask me about my limits tonight. I'd play hiding games, i think.

 

[RisiaSkye]

These questions are exactly the reason I am often grateful that I am just not wired to be fully sub. I'll never reach the level of headspace that cym, for example, achieves.

But on the other hand, I also don't suffer from occupying the position of wondering--was it him, or me? Was this past my limits? Would I have done this with anyone else? Does it matter?

And the big one: Am I still myself?

 

[monster666]

Hmm... Am I still myself? If I am not, is that necessarily bad?

I mean, we do evolve. We change daily, like it or not. Many things influence that change; for example the news or simply listening to other people's persepctives or even a new dessert. So if we choose to test something that's outside our norm, and allow it to change our attitude about a thing - even shake a belief system - even rock the very core of who we are, does that have to be a BAD thing?

Once in a while, I look back and I am very happy I am not my old self anymore regarding certain things.

I don't think consentual means giving up free will and blindly following someone else. I think it means consenting with eyes open, and having the ability to stop if you decide consent is a bad thing in a given situation. This goes back to that thing most of our moms asked us as children - "If Tommy jumps off a cliff, would you follow him?" Certainly, the things we consent to in our lives WILL sometimes change us, but they don't have to kill us - literally or figuratively. Often, we end up better people for our experiences.

I think all this should apply to life in general. Why should BDSM experiences be any different?

These questions are exactly the reason I am often grateful that I am just not wired to be fully sub. I'll never reach the level of headspace that cym, for example, achieves.

But on the other hand, I also don't suffer from occupying the position of wondering--was it him, or me? Was this past my limits? Would I have done this with anyone else? Does it matter?

And the big one: Am I still myself?

 

[cellis]

I read this thread late last night and was uncertain of what to say or even what I thought.

Where I am today and where I was nine or ten months ago, when I was at first just a lurker on the boards, are polar opposites. And I have done things since the move to R/L that I never even imagined a year ago.

It never even occured to me that it might be in any way cultish or brainwashing. Especially since I had worked with juveniles who had been brainwashed or into cults at one time. What I do as a consensual adult is nothing like that.

BDSM is about growth for me, and in a very real sense it is about power and spirituality. I am bound to the man who is my Dom and we share this journey together. Does he at times push me and my limits... yes he does. But it is never more than where I want to go and if I don't like something about the road we are on, I simply tell him and we both reevaluate what we are doing. You cannot do that in a cult.

 

[broken_halo]

Ok, i am not very good at wording myself correctly. So i see many of you have taken this question wrong. Have any of you known anyone that was manipulated into doing things they normally would not do. Not as far as testing and pushing their limits.

What i am talking about is actually where the Dom has actually over time modified the subs behavior into thinking she/he will not survive without him. Making the sub think that she/ he is not a valuble person to other people and everyone elses way is wrong. That the sub should worship no one else but thier Dom. This is not consentual. To me, this is abusing the subs mind.

i myself don't call it brainwashing when my limits are being pushed further and further, although there are many that would think so that do not understand the lifestyle.


broken_halo

 

[monster666]

Not in a BDSM context, but otherwise, yes. People with self worth and confidence issues are easily bullied by others.

I don't think BDSM is about controlling the weak-minded in a manner like you describe. It's about someone with an ordinarily strong mind giving some level of control to someone else. The type of people I think of as submissives are not weak, dependent types.

Ok, i am not very good at wording myself correctly. So i see many of you have taken this question wrong. Have any of you known anyone that was manipulated into doing things they normally would not do. Not as far as testing and pushing their limits.

What i am talking about is actually where the Dom has actually over time modified the subs behavior into thinking she/he will not survive without him. Making the sub think that she/ he is not a valuble person to other people and everyone elses way is wrong. That the sub should worship no one else but thier Dom. This is not consentual. To me, this is abusing the subs mind.

i myself don't call it brainwashing when my limits are being pushed further and further, although there are many that would think so that do not understand the lifestyle.


broken_halo

 

[cymbidia]

If the Dominant behaves toward the submissive in a way that is not honorable, or in a manner that could result in harm to her (physically, emotionally, etc), or in a way that callously violates the submissive's limits, then the Dominant is doing wrong.

It's pretty clear that you're talking non-consent kinds of behgavior so there's no real discussion necessary.

Non-consensual kink activities are, by definition, not SSC-type BDSM play.

BDSM type play which is not fully consensual is beyond abhorrant to most of us.

Does that answer your question?

 

[broken_halo]

Actually, NO, it does not answer my question. There are many submissives who are thought of as weak, so the Dominates prey on these types of people. Apperently, most here are on a one track mind thinking that it is just non- consentual when in fact brainwashing can happen just as much in the lifestyle as it can out of it. Sadly there are those that prey on the weak, because they are not strong enough to prey on others that may not be so vulnerable.

 

[broken_halo]

Actually, NO, it does not answer my question. There are many submissives who are thought of as weak, so the Dominates prey on these types of people. Apperently, most here are on a one track mind thinking that it is just non- consentual when in fact brainwashing can happen just as much in the lifestyle as it can out of it. Sadly there are those that prey on the weak, because they are not strong enough to prey on others that may not be so vulnerable.

If you read this link, then you will understand that a cult and brainwashing is not just a organization, but can be a one on one relationship as well.


http://www.fetishclub.com/exchange/prof03.shtml

 

[lilfrk]

I've read your link and I think I have a friend in a relationship like what you are talking about. It isn't a cult but her Dom has her believing that is her job as his slave to do WHATEVER he wants her to do. Whether it is SSC or not. She has absolutly no knowledge of BDSM other than what he tells her it is about and a couple of Anne Rice books.

She is not masochistic at all but he still beats her with a leather belt until she sobs. He leaves her sobbing on the floor while he goes and does other things. They don't play with a safe word. She doesn't have an out if it gets to be too much for her. After all she's the slave it's her job to take the beating right?

She has tried repeatedly to get me to play with them. Not because she wants to play with me but because he wants me to. Once she even resorted to making a dinner date with me and then after I ordered my meal she told me "Just so you aren't shocked and mad R is coming to desert." When he did show up I felt like the whole rest of the night was just a big push to get me to go to a motel with them. I wasn't comfortable and I made it known.

He has her do other things that aren't safe also. Like stroking him in public. We live in a VERY small town. This is her home town, everyone here knows her and her husband. If the wrong people saw them together and it got back to her husband it would not be a good thing. Once a few weeks ago her daughter saw her out with him.

I feel like he has no reguard for her at all and that he just takes her weakness and uses it for his benefit. It's all just about him and his wants and needs and nothing about her at all. But of course she thinks differently. It scares me a great deal, I'm afraid for her. I've tried to get her to stop seeing him and she won't. She tells me that R is her out and that she NEEDS that. All I can do is hope and pray that nothing truly terrible happens to her and that eventually he will go away. It's very wishful thinking I know.

 

[KillerMuffin]

If I understand the concept that's being discussed by broken halo, then The Story of O is a story of such a brainwashing. Sir Stephen left her and she could not stand to live without him so he gave her his permission.

Human beings are social animals and we tend to conform ourselves to those we admire to make them like us. That is why Peer Pressure is such a tremendous problem though it sounds utterly silly on the outside of the group. A group, incidentally, can be defined as two people.

A submissive wants nothing more than to please his or her Dom. This in an instant set up for a "peer pressure" scenario. Like brainwashing. In order to please his/her Dom s/he would do things that s/he ordinarily would never do. Perhaps to the point where s/he can't get along without the behavior or the Dom. "Training" and "play" are brainwashing. The sub is being taught to please the dom despite all of the other trappings that go with it. At its basest level, BDSM is about a sub submitting to a dom and doing as that dom wishes. Even if that dom wishes to do something that would sound utterly silly to the sub outside of that relationship.

It took me nearly two years to break my brainwashing. I was not only consenting to the whole brain makeover, I had to go through a lengthy processes just to be allowed to get it. I knew I would be brainwashed prior to entry. It took me nearly two years to get along without the Navy, including doing things like defending it when it was wrong by defending its wrong. Sparky Kronkite on the GB is a sparkling example of brainwashing gone horribly awry.

Brainwashing has horrible connotations to it. I prefer the terms "socialized" or "resocialized." The simple fact is that by entering into a counterculture like BDSM, you are going to be "resocialized" into doing and thinking things that you ordinarily would not have done. Despite the adoration for all things BDSM, it is abnormal to desire whippings, piercings, beatings, errata. I am not using abnormal in the street sense, I'm using it in the sociological sense, it's merely defined as something that is not done in the mainstream culture.

When you enter into abnormal behavior you must either make it normal in your brain or keep it abnormal. If it is still abnormal to you, not a part of your view of culture, then you can't do it. If you do make it normal, a part of your culture, then you can do it. To take something that we are taught as deviant (apart from the main society) and proceed to do it, we must resocialize ourselves into believing that these things are normal. We must brainwash or allow ourselves to be brainwashed into believing that we're doing something "normal."

Please realize, before you start frothing at the mouth, that "normal," "abnormal," and "deviant" are all relative to culture. In this culture in this country and in most countries, BDSM is a counterculture. It's against the normal culture. The things it does are normal within the culture and abnormal outside of it. Whether this is right or wrong is another debate, it's simply the way it is.

When I step into this forum, I am the deviant.

 

[broken_halo]

I've read your link and I think I have a friend in a relationship like what you are talking about. It isn't a cult but her Dom has her believing that is her job as his slave to do WHATEVER he wants her to do. Whether it is SSC or not. She has absolutly no knowledge of BDSM other than what he tells her it is about and a couple of Anne Rice books.

She is not masochistic at all but he still beats her with a leather belt until she sobs. He leaves her sobbing on the floor while he goes and does other things. They don't play with a safe word. She doesn't have an out if it gets to be too much for her. After all she's the slave it's her job to take the beating right?

I feel like he has no reguard for her at all and that he just takes her weakness and uses it for his benefit. It's all just about him and his wants and needs and nothing about her at all. But of course she thinks differently. It scares me a great deal, I'm afraid for her. I've tried to get her to stop seeing him and she won't. She tells me that R is her out and that she NEEDS that. All I can do is hope and pray that nothing truly terrible happens to her and that eventually he will go away. It's very wishful thinking I know.

~~~
That is more less what i am talking about. i know someone that may be in the same situation and it is hard to tell. i mean, i do see it, but when you ask her about it, she says its nothing like that at all. i notice a more sense of calm when she is not around him for a while, and yet she cries when he is not around her. She can't bare the thought of being without him at times. She feels as though her life may be worthless if he was not in it.

 

[lilfrk]

~~~
That is more less what i am talking about. i know someone that may be in the same situation and it is hard to tell. i mean, i do see it, but when you ask her about it, she says its nothing like that at all. i notice a more sense of calm when she is not around him for a while, and yet she cries when he is not around her. She can't bare the thought of being without him at times. She feels as though her life may be worthless if he was not in it.

I believe that my friend and your friend are in abusive relationships. I'm not even sure what we can do about it. I guess just be there for them when it's all over. Just pray that there will be pieces to pick up when it's over.

 

[monster666]

I believe that my friend and your friend are in abusive relationships. I'm not even sure what we can do about it. I guess just be there for them when it's all over. Just pray that there will be pieces to pick up when it's over.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by broken_halo



~~~
That is more less what i am talking about. i know someone that may be in the same situation and it is hard to tell. i mean, i do see it, but when you ask her about it, she says its nothing like that at all. i notice a more sense of calm when she is not around him for a while, and yet she cries when he is not around her. She can't bare the thought of being without him at times. She feels as though her life may be worthless if he was not in it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See, I don't consider these situations BDSM relationships. They certainly don't resemble the relationships we discuss here.

I think all too often, an asshole who simply likes to abuse women calls himself Dom because he realizes that if he can get the woman he wants to abuse to buy into his tripe, then he can get away with his lousy behaviour. If SSC doesn't apply then it's abuse, pure and simple, regardless of what HE calls it. That kind of bullying someone weaker into complete submission is just wrong. Or am I off base here?

 

[broken_halo]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by broken_halo



~~~
That is more less what i am talking about. i know someone that may be in the same situation and it is hard to tell. i mean, i do see it, but when you ask her about it, she says its nothing like that at all. i notice a more sense of calm when she is not around him for a while, and yet she cries when he is not around her. She can't bare the thought of being without him at times. She feels as though her life may be worthless if he was not in it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See, I don't consider these situations BDSM relationships. They certainly don't resemble the relationships we discuss here.



~~~
You may not see it as a BDSM relationship, but the people involved do. It is not natural to abuse anyone in any kind of relationship, whether it is a D's relationship or any other kind. There are bad people in every kind of lifestyle, things are not always as pure at people portray it to be. What is discussed on this board is maybe the way it should be, how we would all like it to be, but i am afraid it is not all like that. Didn't we have a incident not to long ago involving a man who portrayed himself as the slavemaster, who lured submissives to him then killed him.


Just as the people who go to church every sunday believe in their priest, rabbi, pastor or who ever it may be, then we find out that the same priest and rabbi and pastor are abusing children. He portrayed everything to his congregation that things can be so beautiful, leads these parents and children to TRUST him, and what happens...He is a abuser of another kind. (may be a bad example but the only one that came to mind at the moment.)

Things are not always as they appear to be, or we like them to be unfortunatly, but how do we get these people to relize that is not how it should be. That they are risking their health, physically and emotionally? How do we undue what damage that we see done. Life or the lifestyle should not be seen through only rose colored glasses. It is just not like that.

 

[monster666]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by broken_halo


You may not see it as a BDSM relationship, but the people involved do. It is not natural to abuse anyone in any kind of relationship, whether it is a D's relationship or any other kind. There are bad people in every kind of lifestyle, things are not always as pure at people portray it to be. What is discussed on this board is maybe the way it should be, how we would all like it to be, but i am afraid it is not all like that. Didn't we have a incident not to long ago involving a man who portrayed himself as the slavemaster, who lured submissives to him then killed him.


Just as the people who go to church every sunday believe in their priest, rabbi, pastor or who ever it may be, then we find out that the same priest and rabbi and pastor are abusing children. He portrayed everything to his congregation that things can be so beautiful, leads these parents and children to TRUST him, and what happens...He is a abuser of another kind. (may be a bad example but the only one that came to mind at the moment.)

Things are not always as they appear to be, or we like them to be unfortunatly, but how do we get these people to relize that is not how it should be. That they are risking their health, physically and emotionally? How do we undue what damage that we see done. Life or the lifestyle should not be seen through only rose colored glasses. It is just not like that.

See, BDSM relationships as described here are NOT supposed to be abusive. Therein lies the difference.

 

[broken_halo]

See, BDSM relationships as described here are NOT supposed to be abusive. Therein lies the difference.

BDSM in here or elsewhere is not suppose to beabusive. So is it taboo here to talk about abusive relationships in this forum? Is it taboo for someone like me wanting to learn about it and get others views on it from people that understand the way it should be? To be able to help others undrerstand that the issues exist? Or is this just a fantasy forum? That i do think is true, because i have read some great posts helping others out with other situations. Is it that no one wants to get involved and make others aware that the problems exist?

 

[SpectreT]

These questions are exactly the reason I am often grateful that I am just not wired to be fully sub. I'll never reach the level of headspace that cym, for example, achieves.

But on the other hand, I also don't suffer from occupying the position of wondering--was it him, or me? Was this past my limits? Would I have done this with anyone else? Does it matter?

And the big one: Am I still myself?

As usual, someone said it better than I could, and before I did.

 

[SpectreT]

May I Cite.....

"Any influence tool is ethical is long as one thing is borne carefully and consistently in mind. If you can create a genuine win/win situation by ensuring that the outcome you seek meets the needs or desires of the other person in a way which will give them something important which they want, then you need not question the means..."

And:

But the main thing is the fundamental message: YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH. In an EPE relationship, the submissive is treasured and wanted and desired. The Dom wants them to grow and be all they can be, but they are ALREADY GOOD ENOUGH!!! The major focal point in abusive relationships is that you are NOT GOOD ENOUGH, never good enough, so wretched and crap that you deserve what you get from the abusers, and should be thankful for it and you should NEVER NEVER TELL ANYONE!!!...a powerful program that, "Don't tell"... (See how frighteningly close some of our humiliation role play can get to seriously dodgy real life situations, but we have to remember it is role play in a GOOD ENOUGH safe space. Lambert again...)

Having read that, I really don't get the question, just a wee headache. Seems like the answers are right in there.

Or weren't you asking a question? If you were trying to call our attention to a potential difficulty and situation, you've succeeded, but I still don't see where there's a question.

Of course, I'm a very direct, honest man. I'm also pretty naive; I believe that most people are inherently good, just, honest and fair. I should know better, but I keep trying to spread what's good and right in human interactions around. (part of that's being non judgemental of other viewpoints)

Self-esteem? didn't have any, til a year or so ago. I finally started living my life by the rules and values I hold dear, and that puts a truckload of spine into anyone. I can see how it can be used as a weapon, and that's why I never will. My own sense of honor prevents it.

 

[broken_halo]

Re: May I Cite.....

And:


Having read that, I really don't get the question, just a wee headache. Seems like the answers are right in there.

Or weren't you asking a question? If you were trying to call our attention to a potential difficulty and situation, you've succeeded, but I still don't see where there's a question.

Of course, I'm a very direct, honest man. I'm also pretty naive; I believe that most people are inherently good, just, honest and fair. I should know better, but I keep trying to spread what's good and right in human interactions around. (part of that's being non judgemental of other viewpoints)

Self-esteem? didn't have any, til a year or so ago. I finally started living my life by the rules and values I hold dear, and that puts a truckload of spine into anyone. I can see how it can be used as a weapon, and that's why I never will. My own sense of honor prevents it.

Ok, as if the question was not simple enough and dumbed down enough let me quote the questions again.
i am wondering if brainwashing or cult (BDSM) has ever been discussed in this forum. Has anyone ever known anyone that was brainwashed by their Master/Dom? Had any personal experiances with it or has done it to one of their slaves/subs themselves?

Do you not understand the wanting and needing of important information to HELP OTHERS out? i figured is someone had some advice or insight on this subject i may be able to help someone out, it is however clear to me there are those of you who just do not get it, and i can not dumb down the question any further.
There are two of us in this thread that are going through time in their life wanting to help a friend out. No one here either cares, or understands and just wants to keep living the fantasy world they live in. BAD things do happen however!!! i just thought this might be a good place to ask a question to get help from someone and some insight, i guess for the most part, i am finding that their are mostly people in here who live the only in fantasy of the lifestyle and not r/t.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Warning: Long and extremely personal post below

Of course BDSM relationships aren't supposed to be abusive--NO relationships are. That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't cease to exist just because we say "nah, not our problem. That's not 'real' BDSM." I think broken_halo makes a very good point here: we don't like to talk about abusive relationships, because so many people automatically assume that what we do is abuse, in all circumstances, and we get tired of defending it. So, we draw clear lines between "us" (consenting kinks) and "them" (abusers and victims) and refuse to even acknowledge that there IS overlap, that some people are both in BDSM relationships and in abusive ones.

However, abuse happens in relationships of all kinds, perhaps even particularly BDSM because it may be more difficult to recognize and understand abuse for us. Because extreme physical sensations and various levels of submission are such a part of what we do *consensually,* the dividing line is hard to see. I think this scares many of us; I don't think I'm alone in this. I think our silence, even our stubborn and active refusal to talk about it, speaks volumes about our superstitious dread of this very issue.

KillerMuffin talked about conditioning. We are conditioned, by choice: to trust Dom/mes, to do what we wouldn't at our own instigation, to learn to draw a substantial part of our own satisfaction from pleasing another, to embrace pain as a part of pleasure. How, then, do we recognize when it stops being a choice, when we aren't being valued, when we're being exploited and used?

Worse yet, we can't even talk about it amongst ourselves, for fear that it's *our* weakness as a partner creating the problem. How many subs do you suppose have second guessed whether they were being weak or less than fully sub if they invoked their safe signal or gave an absolute and unwavering "no" to something a Dom/me they cared for really wanted? What if their Dom/me, perhaps without even meaning to, gave them emotional grief about doing so? How long would it take for the sub to push well past their limits, into not-fun-but-can-bear-it pain, to please the Dom/me that holds the keys to their own self-image?

If we can't talk about this here, of all places, I fear for the safety of every sub that crosses Lit's path. So, let's come clean about this, okay?

Have I ever known someone in an abusive relationship? Oh my lord, yes.

Have I ever known someone in an abusive BDSM relationship? Again, and terribly, yes.

Have I ever been abused? Yes, in a non-BDSM context.

Does that childhood abuse play a role in my BDSM desires? In my opinion, almost certainly. I just don't think that it's an unhealthy choice to make--to embrace pain by choice after having to take it by force for so long. Even if it was unhealthy, I don't think anyone has a right to tell me what I can or can't do with my body anyway, so it's moot. But, I don't deny that I wonder about the connection.

Did the abused 'nilla see that they were being abused? Not really.

Did I see it when I was? Yes, but was powerless to change it for years. Eventually, I got the power to do so.

Did the abused kink see it? Not at the time. Worse, she would have (and did) defend the abusive partner up one side and down the other, excusing his abuses as the ministrations of a particularly demanding and controlling Dominant or as a consequence of emotional strain caused by anything and everything but him.

Did everyone know better? Yes. And it's not always, or even usually, the people you'd expect, either. None of the abused people I've known would have struck others as weak, because they weren't, we weren't. Insecure, maybe, and willing to take love of even the most poisonous varieties, but not weak.

How scary is that? And why aren't we willing to talk about it?
It's not just gonna go away.

 

[lilfrk]

I personally have spoke to my friend J about her Dom. She knows how I feel about him and she tries her damnedest to get me to like him. I can't and I won't. I've also tried my damnedest to get her to see him as the evil player that he is. She can't and she won't. I'd love to wisk her away from him and show her how a loving good BDSM relationship is but I can't. I'm not her mom, I'm not her babysitter. I am however her friend and I'll be there to support her when she needs me. I can't fix the part of her that is broken, that's her job.

There is NO easy answer on how to go about making them see that they are abused. You can't make someone see that until they are ready to. They have to hit rock bottom first. I just pray that she hits rock bottom before she ends up dead.

I understand your frustration broken_halo but really there is no need to be snippy about it. People have tried to answer you to the best of their knowledge. This isn't really about BDSM at all to me. It's about bad people doing horrible things to good people all in the name of BDSM. Abuse is abuse no matter what name someone tries to give it.

Your friend, just like my friend has to WANT the help before either of us can give it. It's as simple as that. I know it's hard to watch someone you love be in a situation that you KNOW is wrong. But again you can't make them better if they don't want to be.

I think all we can really do is point out things that are wrong when they come up and let them decide what to do. Let them know we love them and that we don't think badly of them because of their choices. And to tell them over and over that we love them and that we are there for them.