Bolesław Leśmian Discussion Thread

[Angeline]

Ok, I started a new thread (which I might have to kick you under the table for: now I have to go back and forth to review what you say).

Your points are interesting not only because of discussing Leśmian, but also because of the discussion of translation. As you might know, one of my favorite poets is Forough Farrokhzad, an Iranian woman. I can't read Farsi so I've only read her in translation and in many ways those translations aren't very good as poems. Yet there is something essential in them that transcends the translation shortcomings and still manages to communicate. And that quality made me love her poetry. So I wonder whether you think the Leśmian translations still can communicate some of what you think of as his voice.

I think you've already answered that to some extent in your example of the English neologism in the translation compared to the Polish word choice that Leśmian switches from noun to adjective to make a neologism. The latter, as you describe it, is richer. And of course as you said it's difficult to translate rhyme and rhythm.

Anyway here are a few poems I found on the web. There's no credit given for translation so I can't say who did them. And I believe they are mostly lousy translations (because there are phrasings I read that make me wince!), but there were still qualities there that communicated enough to me to raise my interest in the poet after you mentioned him.

I also should apologize in advance if I am not so available to respond much for the next few days. I have a lot of cooking to do.

The first of these two poems works better in my opinion, but I prefer the second one even though I think it has a lot more flaws.

Tango

A nowhere sailing golden boat,
A lilac shore – and my dismay.
Let’s glide in tandem, like two ships,
Not looking at the gleaming floor.

*

In The Dark

The lip is the lip's friend, the hand the hand's
Lying next each other each one understands
To whom he belongs - each one of the buried dead.
Unwillingly the night goes overhead;
The earth asserts itself, but hesitantly;
And leaflessly the leaves move on a tree.
God stirs the wind and space: but He is high
Above the forest's distant forest sigh.
The wind says this to space:
"I'll not be back
Across this forest while the night shines black."
Still darkness thickens, pierced by small starlight.
The seagulls flying over the sea are white.
One says: "I've heard the fate of stars foretold."
The next: "I've watched the heavens themselves unfold."
The third is silent, but because it knew
Two bodies, glowing in the darkness, who
Wove darkness into their embrace: it found
Them made of the caress in which they wound.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Now I will respond partially only.

Ok, I started a new thread (which I might have to kick you under the table for: now I have to go back and forth to review what you say).

Ouch!

Your points are interesting not only because of discussing Leśmian, but also because of the discussion of translation.

And still the main theme here is poetry. And poetry again.

As you might know, one of my favorite poets is Forough Farrokhzad, an Iranian woman. I can't read Farsi so I've only read her in translation and in many ways those translations aren't very good as poems. Yet there is something essential in them that transcends the translation shortcomings and still manages to communicate. And that quality made me love her poetry. So I wonder whether you think the Leśmian translations still can communicate some of what you think of as his voice.

Two components are present in poems. The stable (invariant) one, and another sensitive to the particular language expressions, esoteric, culture and time depending, ... Both are overall equally important but they appear in each poems (or even for a given poet) in different proportions. For instance, reading translations of Herbert is smooth sailing. In is the invariant component (which does not depends on time, ethnicity, advanced constructions, ...) dominates. In the case of Leśmian the situation is much more difficult. Only at one time I took two poems of late Lesmian, thus they were relatively simple, I took their Chciuk's translations, and Marek Ługowski and Tom Wachtel and I have each added their translations. We got a good result. Otherwise the situation is bleak. (Our translations vanished together with RedForh site, how sad).

I think you've already answered that to some extent in your example of the English neologism in the translation compared to the Polish word choice that Leśmian switches from noun to adjective to make a neologism.

Could you quote that place? I am afraid that there was a partial misunderstanding or a bit of misinterpretation.

Anyway here are a few poems I found on the web. There's no credit given for translation so I can't say who did them. [...]

Tango

A nowhere sailing golden boat,
A lilac shore – and my dismay.
Let’s glide in tandem, like two ships,
Not looking at the gleaming floor.
​

I'll check the other later. But this one is an abuse! There is hardly any relation to the original, hardly any. The whole poem has FIVE stanzas, not ONE. And the stanza above is a pale combination of the first two stanzas combined together... This is dishonest.

This garbage has appeared on at least two different sites: allpoetry and poemhunter

Here is an example. The last line of the above pseudo-translation:

Not looking at the gleaming floor.​

(so what?!) does not do anything poetically, and not much otherwise. The respective line 6 (second of the second line) is:

Nie patrząc w lśniące dno podświatów -​

It means:

Not looking into the shining bottom of the underworlds -​

Oh, well...

 

[HarryHill]

Tango

A nowhere sailing golden boat,
A lilac shore – and my dismay.
Let’s glide in tandem, like two ships,
Not looking at the gleaming floor.

..
This must be a really bad translation, but the phrases are sweet

 

[Senna Jawa]

..
This must be a really bad translation, but the phrases are sweet

Try this, if you like:

Bolesław Leśmian, Dziewczyna (Girl)​

(the translation is far from smooth but does give the general idea; also Sandra Celt has her own translation in her collection).

 

[HarryHill]

Try this, if you like:

Bolesław Leśmian, Dziewczyna (Girl)​

(the translation is far from smooth but does give the general idea).

.. trouble immediately

Twelve brothers, believing in dreams, examined a wall from the side of dreams,
And beyond the wall a voice was crying, a squandered girly voice

That has to be a bad translation.

 

[Senna Jawa]

.. trouble immediately


That has to be a bad translation.

Yes. And Sandra Celt's translation here is not better:

Twelve brothers who believed in dreams surveyed a daydream-sided wall;
A voice was weeping from beyond, a plantive, wasted, girlish call,​

Indeed, just like squandered, also wasted is negative (instead of being dramatic-romantic)... etc. There are more problems as well with these two lines (I can list them but perhaps it's not necessary?).

It's not about exactness of the translation but about conveying the art, the poetry.

 

[HarryHill]

Yes. And Sandra Celt's translation here is not better:

Twelve brothers who believed in dreams surveyed a daydream-sided wall;
A voice was weeping from beyond, a plantive, wasted, girlish call,​

Indeed, just like squandered, also wasted is negative... etc. There are more problems as well with these two lines (I can list them but perhaps it's not necessary?).

It's not about exactness of the translation but about conveying the art, the poetry.

It's just that one word that eludes me; the rest is lovely, drew me in then I hit that one discordant note... would forlorn be a better fit

 

[Senna Jawa]

B.Leśmian, Tango (tr. Sandra Celt)

***

The Tango


Nasturtium fire in feline eyes,
Alert and body-careful haze,
A nowhere-sailing golden boat,
a lilac shore--and my dismay.

Let's glide in tandem, like two ships,
Not looking at the gleaming floor--
We know the flower-truth and are
Uneasy of our own accord.

A sullen dusk in windowpanes,
A multi-storied light cascade--
A foot immersed in notes to come,
A musical and ceaseless wade.

Conspiracy of dance and sound:
They mistify to mistify!
Unconscious tango purple starts,
Reluctantly to bluify...

The final sound has second-guessed,
The foot in search of cozy fog...
Unused and free, it wants to die--
And dies in music-dialogue.​

Bolesław Leśmian
(tr. Sandra Celt)​

 

[Senna Jawa]

3 translations of lines 1-2 of Dziewczyna

It's just that one word that eludes me; the rest is lovely, drew me in then I hit that one discordant note... would forlorn be a better fit

The 2 first lines of Dziewczyna (Girl) by B.Leśmian are:

Dziewczyna

Dwunastu braci, wierząc w sny, zbadało mur od marzeń strony,
A poza murem płakał głos, dziewczęcy głos zaprzepaszczony.​

I'll follow the Celt's first half of line 1, and will follow on my own, just to give you the idea:

Twelve brothers who believed in dreams, checked a wall on the illusion side,
And a voice cried beyond the wall, a girl's voice filled with precipice cries

tr. by S.J. (wh)​

.

Now judge me with full severity (the poor me ). Then I will be ready to provide a truthful (hence fair) comparison of the three translations as a poetic text, and as translations. For the sake of completeness and convenience, here are the 2 translated lines from the Kozly Thorainc's page (is s/he the translator?):

Twelve brothers, believing in dreams, examined a wall from the side of dreams,
And beyond the wall a voice was crying, a squandered girly voice.​

and by Sandra Celt:

Twelve brothers who believed in dreams surveyed a daydream-sided wall;
A voice was weeping from beyond, a plantive, wasted, girlish call,​

 

[HarryHill]

I'll follow the Celt's first half of line 1, and will follow on my own, just to give you the idea:


Twelve brothers who believed in dreams, checked a wall on the illusion side,
And a voice cried beyond the wall, a girl's voice filled with precipice cries




tr. by S.J. (wh)

..
now there's a phrase to fall in love with that makes the other translations look like mud on the bottom of a poets shoe. I will not bother you further but I will wonder what words I miss as I continue.

 

[Senna Jawa]

..
now there's a phrase to fall in love with that makes the other translations look like mud on the bottom of a poets shoe. I will not bother you further but I will wonder what words I miss as I continue.

HaHi, thank you! All credit goes to the author though.

Now, what should we do in this thread? Let me just mention that in the case of a strong poet the translator's careful effort should go in the direction of preserving the original; and in the case of an exceptional poet this should be a super-effort--a translator should be very disciplined.

 

[Angeline]

HaHi, thank you! All credit goes to the author though.

Now, what should we do in this thread? Let me just mention that in the case of a strong poet the translator's careful effort should go in the direction of preserving the original; and in the case of an exceptional poet this should be a super-effort--a translator should be very disciplined.

I'd like to talk more about translations and some ideas I have about the types of writing various cultures seem to produce, but alas I must put it on hold for now as I am back on kitchen duty soon. Yesterday was pies. Today is sides. Soon it will be poems again but not for a while...

 

[Senna Jawa]

Bolesław Leśmian, Sandra Celt, preview, and... Robert Frost

I'd like to talk more about translations ...

Robert Frost:

Poetry is what gets lost in translation​

(Read more at: brainy quotes).

I can't believe it... For years I was posting similar statements on Internet, and today I ran into this exact quote. And by whom? By Robert Frost by all people, so strange. The idea is so right, the poets should follow it all the time (hardly any will ).

Actually, I got the Robert Frost's aphorism from this

preview​

 

[Angeline]

Robert Frost:

Poetry is what gets lost in translation​

(Read more at: brainy quotes).

I can't believe it... For years I was posting similar statements on Internet, and today I ran into this exact quote. And by whom? By Robert Frost by all people, so strange. The idea is so right, the poets should follow it all the time (hardly any will ).

Actually, I got the Robert Frost's aphorism from this

preview​

So Leśmian's poetry is a translator's purgatory, eh? And maybe it's true what Frost says, but something of what you call the invariant quality must remain--even in some poor translations. I thought that second example I posted is beautiful, both the phrasings and the idea of it. But I have no clue how faithful of a translation it is. By the way I found those translations at both sites you mentioned. I couldn't find them in English anywhere else.

I often come off these discussions thinking that English is a poor substitute for poetry because it is so direct and doesn't seem to have those dreamy, fantastical phrasings or much use for the subjunctive tense--or maybe it's me.