Blindsided by comments!

[regularguy13]

Have you ever been blindsided by comments?

I was absolute gobsmacked by the early comments on a story I wrote for the April Fools contest. My first thoughts were - did the idiots read the story? were these comments posted incorrectly? Surely they were meant for another story, not mine.

People were objecting to two rape scenes - a man having sex with two drunk women. My story was clever....a high-school drop-out getting one over on his ex-girlfriend and her snooty friends. All rich snobs and terrible people.

Then, it hit me. Yes. My main character took advantage of two women. I could have gone a different way, but I used the encounters to set up the 'twist' that April Fools stories need. I'd completely forgotten that aspect of the story.

Authors have complained about 'bad' comments and enjoyed 'good' comments. I'm just noting that I was surprised by truthful comments!

 

[lovecraft68]

You have two stories, at first I only saw the incest story and posted based on that, then realized it was the LW story you're talking about.

But my answer is the same. you're putting rape elements in a story outside of non con where it belongs. Personally I'm surprised there are people decent enough in what is pretty much the biggest pile of filth in literotica's readership to be upset about women being raped, its what they usually live for...but I guess there's a few holding there noses to wade through the crap for a decent story there.

I don't get your comment that you forgot those aspects of the story...how do you forget what you wrote that quickly?

In general you're getting what you deserve and also being combined with LW being a low voting high trolling category even when you don't give them more of a reason to be that way.

 

[Dark_Logan_]

Perhaps you’ve just been unlucky to fall under the eyes of trolls or objectors

I’ve posted similar content before and feared comments that have never materialised

Naturally, and I’m sure you appreciate that your content is risqué/controversial (as is any non con based content) so you have to expect a few objections and low scoring votes as a consequence.

Like it or not it’s subject matter that many will frown upon.

 

[regularguy13]

I'm not complaining.

I'm not complaining or saying the comments were undeserved, and I have no qualms about writing/reading non-consent stories. I was surprised by how much the story had grown and changed and wondered if others have forgotten key aspects of their stories as an idea becomes a story.

Months ago, I started a file with the words "I'm late!" The phrase intrigued me because of it's multiple meanings. That was the kernel that birthed the story. She said it meaning I'm pregnant. He heard she's missing the flight. So the story involves a trip and people who've had sex. Add complications...

I decided this could be an April Fools story if I could add a twist. He thought they had something. She's using him, knowing she will discard him for a more suitable mate. He gets angry and revenge.

I was so involved in making a last minute change to the story - adding having the guy video the encounters so he could play them at the comeuppance party - that I forgot about the rapes.

If I'd remembered, I'd put the story in 'Non-Consent'. I recall wondering what category to choose, thinking there's no anal, no BDSM, no incest...I narrowed my choice to 'Erotic Coupling' or 'Loving Wives' and flipped a coin.

This thread was more about the writing process and how stories go where they want to go, and how different readers see different things.

 

[NotWise]

I've had comments from both readers and beta readers that took me by surprise. Initially, it's hard for me to acknowledge when they're right. Sometimes it eventually soaks in, and at other times I just agree to disagree.

I can get so nearsighted about a story while I'm working on it that I don't really see what's there. Someone else has to point it out. That's part of the value in beta readers.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm not complaining or saying the comments were undeserved, and I have no qualms about writing/reading non-consent stories. I was surprised by how much the story had grown and changed and wondered if others have forgotten key aspects of their stories as an idea becomes a story.

Months ago, I started a file with the words "I'm late!" The phrase intrigued me because of it's multiple meanings. That was the kernel that birthed the story. She said it meaning I'm pregnant. He heard she's missing the flight. So the story involves a trip and people who've had sex. Add complications...

I decided this could be an April Fools story if I could add a twist. He thought they had something. She's using him, knowing she will discard him for a more suitable mate. He gets angry and revenge.

I was so involved in making a last minute change to the story - adding having the guy video the encounters so he could play them at the comeuppance party - that I forgot about the rapes.

If I'd remembered, I'd put the story in 'Non-Consent'. I recall wondering what category to choose, thinking there's no anal, no BDSM, no incest...I narrowed my choice to 'Erotic Coupling' or 'Loving Wives' and flipped a coin.

This thread was more about the writing process and how stories go where they want to go, and how different readers see different things.

Hindsight is 20/20. But I think the mistake is thinking what you wrote wasn't non con because it was and if you dropped it in NC you may have avoided the issue....then again maybe there they'd say it wasn't enough? Extreme kink categories are filled with factions.

EC might have gotten you less flak, but less attention in general.

Our stories live and die here by our choices rather than actual talent sometimes.

 

[SimonDoom]

The way I look at it, if commenters never surprise me and tell me only what I expect, then I'm not learning anything. Sometimes I am surprised or even taken aback by what they say, but on reflection, like you, I sometimes come around to thinking, "They have a point." I try to glean whatever is useful from that so it informs my future writing.

 

[lovecraft68]

The way I look at it, if commenters never surprise me and tell me only what I expect, then I'm not learning anything. Sometimes I am surprised or even taken aback by what they say, but on reflection, like you, I sometimes come around to thinking, "They have a point." I try to glean whatever is useful from that so it informs my future writing.

Off the top of my head I can only remember one time a reader pointed out something I had no idea I'd done and that was his complimenting me on great foreshadowing early in the story with a comment a character made that ended up being meaningful late in the story

Thing is I never intended that to be anything but the line at the time and forgot it by the end. Subconscious maybe takes over at times

 

[jehoram]

Have you ever been blindsided by comments?

Not exactly, but I remember a comment on my story "A Very Private Beach" where the guy was confused about how there was an ocean beach at Fort Bragg, which was very far inland, even though there was a note RIGHT AT THE BEGIINNING OF THE STORY that said that the story took place in Fort Bragg, California.

Our readers are not always the most observant.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

Then, it hit me. Yes. My main character took advantage of two women. I could have gone a different way, but I used the encounters to set up the 'twist' that April Fools stories need. I'd completely forgotten that aspect of the story.

Authors have complained about 'bad' comments and enjoyed 'good' comments. I'm just noting that I was surprised by truthful comments!

I read through the scene with drunk Gigi. It’s a rape scene. Some of your commenters pointed out the rape scene(s?). It sounds like you agree with their observations in retrospect too.

But I personally wouldn’t describe that feedback as “blindsiding” at all. I’m surprised you were gobsmacked by it. With lines like “She was drunk and didn't know I was the guy with her, so why not fuck her?” imho, it seemed like you knew. When you write character’s internal dialogue like what’s going through Adam’s head, I think that LC hit the nail on the head with his question: how did you not know what you’d written?

I think that LC’s other points are spot on:

Hindsight is 20/20. But I think the mistake is thinking what you wrote wasn't non con because it was and if you dropped it in NC you may have avoided the issue....then again maybe there they'd say it wasn't enough? Extreme kink categories are filled with factions.

EC might have gotten you less flak, but less attention in general.

Our stories live and die here by our choices rather than actual talent sometimes.

There have been some stories we’ve recently discussed in the feedback forum that have varying gray areas of consent, but the scenario in your story is pretty cut and dry non-con, regardless of the plot device you were using it to set up. Your readers might not have felt blindsided if the story had been posted there or had a disclaimer.

 

[lovecraft68]

I read through the scene with drunk Gigi. It’s a rape scene. Some of your commenters pointed out the rape scene(s?). It sounds like you agree with their observations in retrospect too.

But I personally wouldn’t describe that feedback as “blindsiding” at all. I’m surprised you were gobsmacked by it. With lines like “She was drunk and didn't know I was the guy with her, so why not fuck her?” imho, it seemed like you knew. When you write character’s internal dialogue like what’s going through Adam’s head, I think that LC hit the nail on the head with his question: how did you not know what you’d written?

I think that LC’s other points are spot on:



There have been some stories we’ve recently discussed in the feedback forum that have varying gray areas of consent, but the scenario in your story is pretty cut and dry non-con, regardless of the plot device you were using it to set up. Your readers might not have felt blindsided if the story had been posted there or had a disclaimer.

Something that has always ticked me off here is why Mind control is its own category. Its rape. Whether its a magic ring, a drug, a super power, hypnosis, anything that takes away a person's ability to say yes or no is rape. It belongs in Non con reluctance...

Meanwhile Non consent and reluctance are two totally different things, and I know readers who complain about what a minefield the category is because they're lumped together and you don't know what it is until you're into the story.

MC stories should be in non con and reluctance or dubious consent its own category. That would benefit the readers and authors as it would be less confusing with where your story goes or finding the story you want, and not always back clicking off a story that's not your taste.

I'm not judging the stories or the authors who write them, to each their own, this isn't a kink shame thing, its more about how I can't blame people here at times when they don't know what consent or non consent is because the site obviously doesn't have it right or care to even try.

Okay, off the soapbox...

 

[SimonDoom]

Something that has always ticked me off here is why Mind control is its own category. Its rape. Whether its a magic ring, a drug, a super power, hypnosis, anything that takes away a person's ability to say yes or no is rape. It belongs in Non con reluctance...

Meanwhile Non consent and reluctance are two totally different things, and I know readers who complain about what a minefield the category is because they're lumped together and you don't know what it is until you're into the story.

MC stories should be in non con and reluctance or dubious consent its own category. That would benefit the readers and authors as it would be less confusing with where your story goes or finding the story you want, and not always back clicking off a story that's not your taste.

I'm not judging the stories or the authors who write them, to each their own, this isn't a kink shame thing, its more about how I can't blame people here at times when they don't know what consent or non consent is because the site obviously doesn't have it right or care to even try.

Okay, off the soapbox...

On this question, I think you always have to keep in mind that the overwhelmingly important criterion for proper categorization is not "how are things, really?" but "what are readers looking for, and how do they see things?" The latter is what drives categorization. The purpose of categorization is to make it easier for readers to find the stories they want, based on their subjective preferences and perceptions, not based on the real world.

My sense is that a lot of readers see Mind Control as different from Non Con. Mind Control usually has a fantasy/sci fi element that takes it out of the realm of Non Con . . . for the readers. It doesn't matter whether it makes sense or whether it conflicts with the real-world experience of you or anyone else.

The combination of Non Con and Reluctance may simply be a marriage of convenience, intended to avoid balkanizing Literotica categories too much. Astute authors can use tags and story descriptions to alert potential readers to whether their story is more one than the other. My guess -- just a guess, admittedly -- is that, unlike you, many readers enjoy both kinds of stories and don't mind them being lumped together.

 

[lovecraft68]

On this question, I think you always have to keep in mind that the overwhelmingly important criterion for proper categorization is not "how are things, really?" but "what are readers looking for, and how do they see things?" The latter is what drives categorization. The purpose of categorization is to make it easier for readers to find the stories they want, based on their subjective preferences and perceptions, not based on the real world.

My sense is that a lot of readers see Mind Control as different from Non Con. Mind Control usually has a fantasy/sci fi element that takes it out of the realm of Non Con . . . for the readers. It doesn't matter whether it makes sense or whether it conflicts with the real-world experience of you or anyone else.

The combination of Non Con and Reluctance may simply be a marriage of convenience, intended to avoid balkanizing Literotica categories too much. Astute authors can use tags and story descriptions to alert potential readers to whether their story is more one than the other. My guess -- just a guess, admittedly -- is that, unlike you, many readers enjoy both kinds of stories and don't mind them being lumped together.

Well seeing I mentioned in my post that I've seen the complaints I guess there are more like me out there.

The site is what it is and they have made it abundantly clear they don't change anything unless its a necessity to keep up with competitors, but readers/authors...whatever.

If someone doesn't know Non con and reluctance are two different things they're fucking idiots, and that is both on lit and in real life. One has a choice, one does not...is that complicated? Shouldn't be.

I'll agree some readers don't see MC as the same as NC but its about not wanting to, not that they can't.

Mind control is rape light...Oh, well, she was under someone's control, its different than being forced....says every hypocrite in the category both author and reader.

This to me is similar to step brother vs Brother....step is like non alcoholic beer some of the taste none of the bite and you can say "I'm not an incest perv, its a step brother, mother etc..."

The reality is damn straight they're thinking Brother...ever notice how most step stories are written? There's a mention of them being steps...then the rest of the story is "My sister's tits, my Mom's, my brother...." real dialogue, but wink wink they're steps...

That's how PI is published on sites that won't allow "real" incest you say step then give them all the real pronouns.

Mind control is for readers and authors who have rape fantasies-which there is nothing at all wrong with-but yet tell themselves no, this isn't rape, just like step isn't incest

Its about people who can't admit what really turns them on. Anything that hinders consent is non consent....it really is that simple, its about people deluding themselves, and the site gives them the out. Personally I think if years ago lit knew how small the MC category would be they may not have done it, like anal and a couple others it could be replaced with a category people actually would have a use for...Bi-sexual is the one often lobbied for.

 

[Payne_Hall]

Mind control is for readers and authors who have rape fantasies-which there is nothing at all wrong with-but yet tell themselves no, this isn't rape, just like step isn't incest

Its about people who can't admit what really on.

It’s pretty great that you bring this up. I love writing for the noncon tag, actually, because it’s a no win tag. It’s heavily divided and the trick is that you have to write it for that fantasy, but you have to do it without making people feel guilty about it, too. Writing in it feels like this game to try to get it right with tone and dialogue.

That being said, if a story has BDSM, but also has anything at all that might kind of be considered as loose on consent, just put it in noncon. I don’t know how much that goes for other genres, but that’s just a hard no when people aren’t expecting or looking for it.

I would also say that the people looking for that would be cool with a mind control story, too, so I could see it as being happily one tag.

 

[lovecraft68]

It’s pretty great that you bring this up. I love writing for the noncon tag, actually, because it’s a no win tag. It’s heavily divided and the trick is that you have to write it for that fantasy, but you have to do it without making people feel guilty about it, too. Writing in it feels like this game to try to get it right with tone and dialogue.

That being said, if a story has BDSM, but also has anything at all that might kind of be considered as loose on consent, just put it in noncon. I don’t know how much that goes for other genres, but that’s just a hard no when people aren’t expecting or looking for it.

I would also say that the people looking for that would be cool with a mind control story, too, so I could see it as being happily one tag.

I know NC/R has factions, hence the 'mindfield' description. Especially because everyone has personal limits...this is okay, okay., oh no that's too much...so you're right its a hard category to nail a certain audience.

I've written a couple of dub cons for commission and that's a fine line too because I'm trying to give enough reluctance, but not push it too far and its not always easy.

BDSM seems plagued by people writing non consent who don't want the NC stigma so put it there and try to play the BDSM doesn't need consent game that's been popular lately especially in pay markets where a platform doesn't want NC so they slide it into BDSM and the site can't screen every story.

I'm not a fan of NC, but I can sympathize its a tricky AF place to write and read.

Edited to add I took a peek at your page. Going by your scores, you're doing a good job of figuring it out.

 

[RejectReality]

Mind control spun itself out of usenet into its own thing and got extremely popular just a couple of years before Lit came on the scene. Fantasy readers weren't particularly accepting of the non-con, and non-con readers weren't particularly accepting of the fantasy elements, so they built their own playground.

Everyone else has more or less followed the model since.

 

[SimonDoom]

Mind control is for readers and authors who have rape fantasies-which there is nothing at all wrong with-but yet tell themselves no, this isn't rape, just like step isn't incest

Maybe you're right. Maybe you're not. But who cares? What does it matter? We're talking about people's fantasies. Nobody is obligated, when indulging their fantasies, to conform to anyone else's standards of logic or real-world standards or self-awareness, whether yours or anyone else's. I don't understand why this bothers you. If people (like me, for example) see Mind Control as different from Non Con, in the sense of how it turns us on, you're in no position to tell us we're wrong. You take precisely the opposite position on every other kink other than Non Con. Your position with respect to all those other kinks is, "Let people alone and don't be a kink cop."

 

[Payne_Hall]

I know NC/R has factions, hence the 'mindfield' description. Especially because everyone has personal limits...this is okay, okay., oh no that's too much...so you're right its a hard category to nail a certain audience.

I've written a couple of dub cons for commission and that's a fine line too because I'm trying to give enough reluctance, but not push it too far and its not always easy.

BDSM seems plagued by people writing non consent who don't want the NC stigma so put it there and try to play the BDSM doesn't need consent game that's been popular lately especially in pay markets where a platform doesn't want NC so they slide it into BDSM and the site can't screen every story.

I'm not a fan of NC, but I can sympathize its a tricky AF place to write and read.

Edited to add I took a peek at your page. Going by your scores, you're doing a good job of figuring it out.

Dub cons are definitely another one. All it takes is one wrong line with the wrong tone to throw someone off where they say, “That’s the line and it’s been crossed.”

I think both of them have a separate faction set, too, where different readers have different sides of the fantasy. Kind of like the cuckold or not thing in LW, in a way.

And I have had stories that are BDSM heavy and I put them in noncon anyway because it’s just been abused so much and it drives those readers insane. I’ve seen so many comments that just say “another story that should have been in noncon. Put it there.”

Also, thank you! I’m waiting for the day I screw up and fall below the red H. I have a quote chosen and everything for when it happens haha.

Edited afterthought: Speaking of the LW thing, that’s another one that everyone keeps saying is a hot stove that shouldn’t be touched and now... I kind of want to try that one too.

 

[SimonDoom]

Well seeing I mentioned in my post that I've seen the complaints I guess there are more like me out there.

.

One has to be careful about whether the squeaky wheels deserve the grease. Yes, people complain. In every venue, one will find complainers. But there's no good reason to believe that complainers reflect the majority. It's no different from Loving Wives. A few incels and trolls spoil the fun for what -- I think -- is the majority of readers who are perfectly happy to read stories about the the missus having extramarital fun and getting away with it without punishment or financial ruin.

 

[lovecraft68]

Maybe you're right. Maybe you're not. But who cares? What does it matter? We're talking about people's fantasies. Nobody is obligated, when indulging their fantasies, to conform to anyone else's standards of logic or real-world standards or self-awareness, whether yours or anyone else's. I don't understand why this bothers you. If people (like me, for example) see Mind Control as different from Non Con, in the sense of how it turns us on, you're in no position to tell us we're wrong. You take precisely the opposite position on every other kink other than Non Con. Your position with respect to all those other kinks is, "Let people alone and don't be a kink cop."

By your thinking no one here should post an opinion at all about anything.

These are my opinions, and the more someone like you bitches the more I feel like I must be hitting a nerve.

And for the record, how many times have I said, Rape fantasies are not an issue for me just like any other kink, its the lying, spinning and deluding this site does when they say they don't allow them or people like you need to come in and rapesplain something away.

Reluctance-You can fuck me or this will happen...person agrees, meaning no matter how sleazy it gets consent

No consent given by either force or some gimmick to take away control-Non consent. As for Sci-Fi/Fantasy not liking NC or other way around...again that's not the kink, that's the people who for some reason can't admit even on a site that allows NC stories that they enjoy that fantasy.

Your problem with me is I'm not a cool kid in your little clubhouse where Vix just said you have been discussing non consent quite a bit lately...but I guess no one not as good as you guys can discuss it? Or we can if we agree?

Hell, a person who writes non con and does well there just admitted I was spot on...but let's not let that deter you from trying to sound superior and take issue with me.

This isn't the feedback forum where you and a bunch of long winded look how smart I want you to think I am circle jerks who spend all day fluffing and rimming each other hang out all day, its an open forum, not a clique.

unlike you in your consistently waffling posts where you can't choose a side and suck up to to posters you think are good writers here-including me sometimes-I have had this same 'platform' for years here and my entire life.

I don't kowtow, I don't brownnose, I don't waffle and I don't quit or concede on something I have strong conviction about.

My only point mister defensive is not about kink shaming its about owning what the kink is and where it belongs and not using categories on a porn site to try and spread misinformation about what is or is not consent here or in the real world and only doing so because you're not comfortable admitting what you're comfortable with.

You can't handle that there's the ignore function or you can keep talking non consent with lit's self proclaimed expert on consent and projection in the clubhouse where I know I have been a source of conversation of late behind the scenes. Right down to a nice little set up attempt recently. Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to be smart enough to know that.

You can keep going with your pretentious arguments where you spin wheels and try to overcomplicate something that in reality is very simple and try to make me out to the troll. Honesty and not putting on airs or pretending to be a persona rather an a person is usually branded a troll on the net.

Some people here like me, some hate me, its all good, but I don't change for either.

As far as this topic goes, you can keep pissing with the pups, but leave the dog alone.

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

Not exactly, but I remember a comment on my story "A Very Private Beach" where the guy was confused about how there was an ocean beach at Fort Bragg, which was very far inland, even though there was a note RIGHT AT THE BEGIINNING OF THE STORY that said that the story took place in Fort Bragg, California.

Our readers are not always the most observant.

Comments always tell me more about the reader than the story.

First 6 words of a story:

SINT MAARTIN (NETHERLANDS ANTILLES), JUNE 1985

Comments (6/90 or so) included:

"Actually it's Doug and me, not Doug and I." (I had written: 'Doug and I went to see ... ', so no.)

"Library? Why didn't she Google it?" (Uh, it was 1985.)

"You spell it Saint Martin some places and Sint Maartin others, either use the French spelling or don't." (Uh, 'Saint Martin' is the correct spelling of the northern French half of the island. Sint Maartin is the Dutch southern half.)

(about two comments later) "Use a spellchecker. You misspelt the name of the island." (Nope, see above.)

"June is wintertime in the southern hemisphere." (Uh, the Caribbean island is not only tropical, but it lies slightly north of the equator.)

"Nudity on public beaches is illegal." (¿Because all Lit stories take place in Iowa USA, and nothing "illegal" ever happens in them?)

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

Its about people who can't admit what really turns them on ...

Or instead of being mental 12-year-olds they could just grow up ...

Nevermind ... That's not happening ...

 

[Payne_Hall]

Or instead of being mental 12-year-olds they could just grow up ...

Nevermind ... That's not happening ...

I don’t know that that’s it. I think it’s just that people don’t like feeling guilty or messed up and their minds are against them . It’s one of my favorite things to allude to in stories, that meme that talks about getting off and then realizing what you were watching or reading and being ashamed about it haha.

 

[AvroAnsonXIX]

I don’t know that that’s it. I think it’s just that people don’t like feeling guilty or messed up and their minds are against them . It’s one of my favorite things to allude to in stories, that meme that talks about getting off and then realizing what you were watching or reading and being ashamed about it haha.

That's exactly what I mean. They were treated as children without moral agency and unable to make decisions for themselves. Set in opposition against themselves they desire what they were told was "bad" or "wrong."

I understand how lucky I am. My ancestors were shipped south of the equator to satisfy labor requirements under the fiction of being criminals. So, great-grandma and great-grandpa knew that the state was powerful but held no moral authority. My grandparents were ministered by clergy who took vows of poverty while they lived in mansions, unchaste people who had taken vows of chastity and were protected by their superiors. So they understood that the Church was powerful but it held no ethical authority.

My parents were trained in science by a society that finds science somewhat useful when it serves political ends, but quite unhelpful when it points out society's foibles. They saw great value in honesty, and in valuing other human beings. But they saw no value in trying to restrict oneself to be less than they could be. They were not monogamous and they taught me that sex was "powerful," but not "bad," or "evil."

Is a 572 Hemi in a car evil? Is a sledgehammer or a rifle evil? All three are powerful and should be respected. Misused they can kill, but should they be banned? How about a chef's knife or cleaver? Ever try preparing dinner with a spork? But people do the relationship equivalent of tying to make a gourmet pizza with a saltine, ketchup, a piece of tinfoil and a candle.

It's silly, we all have natural desires. Sleuth a little and the "oddest" kink can be understood. As a student in a Catholic girls school we read the Bible to each other. Not the whole thing, just the "naughty-bits": "A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. Your channel is an orchard of pomegranates with all choicest fruits." (SoS 4:12-13) "My beloved thrust his hand into the opening, and my inmost being yearned for him." (SoS 5:4)

Told they shouldn't be grown-up or shouldn't be human and have the sexual desire everyone has, they snicker and giggle and above all are insanely jealous of those who don't share their irrational self-limitations. Or they are intensely ashamed of feeling and / or acting on those feelings. Assuming that puberty occurs on average at thirteen, they are mentally stuck at twelve.

 

[Bramblethorn]

"You spell it Saint Martin some places and Sint Maartin others, either use the French spelling or don't." (Uh, 'Saint Martin' is the correct spelling of the northern French half of the island. Sint Maartin is the Dutch southern half.)

I had the reverse of this. Somebody complimented me on using "leant", which they believed was the only correct past tense of "lean", but when I checked I'd used both "leant" and "leaned" in that chapter.

AFAIK they're both acceptable, but if I'd noticed, I would've picked one or the other and stuck with it.