Blank, Blank or Blank and Blank what more can be Blank?

[A7inchPhildo]

On a different Thread (Fact or Fiction) here a couple responses by two nice poeple were, (taken out of a larger post)I was checking past posts as I always do and infront of me was Colly, and Mighty posts. I think I am wrong and my friend is right?
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Colly,
Perhaps she was "that dynamite Blonde" but then again maybe she was just blonde and not quite dynamite, heck maybe she was dirty blonde and a little on the skinny side, come to think of it maybe she was neither. Does it really matter?
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Mighty,
I am most often turned on by stories that are as realistic as possible without various "exotic" stuff The reason for that is I can more easily relate to real stuff and its easier to imagine somthig that could happen in my life .
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I just finished a story that a dear friend was editing. Soon to be posted.

The phone 40 minute call just ended.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He said, "I would rather you did not write such a discriptive view of each character as to the placement of bodily features. I think it better suits the reader to have a vague discription."

His example was; "If I am a business person who thinks about my secratary in perverted ways. Lets say she is petit, brown eyes, and short redish brown hair....
You start your story and it is going good then you describe the secratary. As a beautiful tall slender blond, flowing hair that can only be matched by her bright blue eyes....."

He says, "You just trashed the momentum building in my mind. If the story is good people have a tendancy to bypass the facts infront of them hoping to reconnect with their own fantasy going on."

He says, "You have control of everything and can decide on clothes, actions, occurances. You even have control of the physical attributes size, structure. If the mention of certain Items come up such as hair color make them brief and not continuous.

He finished with, "People read erotic stories to place themselves and other notables into the story they embark on. Otherwise they watch Porn and the characters are decided for them."
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I can take criticism and that is what I like about lit. There is plenty of it to go around. My thoughts are I like being Intimately discriptive about each character as I write it makes me lust to the story even more. Granted I know not everyone has my taste.
On the other hand I like to be consumed in a story as well and I admit I place my aquaintences as characters.

Authors what do you do? What do you think? Readers what do you like? Any Bi people too?

Phildo

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Quote:
He said, "I would rather you did not write such a discriptive view of each character as to the placement of bodily features. I think it better suits the reader to have a vague discription."


I have been chaistened on several occasions by print published authors for not giving good physical descriptions early in a work. You are telling the story, it is up to you to paint the picture for the reader. Would Long John Silver be Long John Silver without his hook, parrot and peg leg? If R.L. Stevenson had just said a mangey old man would you have imagined him with a hook, peg leg and parrot? I rest my case.

Quote:
His example was; "If I am a business person who thinks about my secratary in perverted ways. Lets say she is petit, brown eyes, and short redish brown hair....
You start your story and it is going good then you describe the secratary. As a beautiful tall slender blond, flowing hair that can only be matched by her bright blue eyes....."

Who is writing the story? Him or you? Who is it for? If you just said his secretary and left it at that I might see Miss Hawthorn from work. Short, squat, gray hair, pasty complection, and a nasty disposition. How sexy.

Quote:
He says, "You just trashed the momentum building in my mind. If the story is good people have a tendancy to bypass the facts infront of them hoping to reconnect with their own fantasy going on."

If the story is good people are drawn into the flow of it. They don't ignore the details, they hunger for them. It sounds to me very much like your editor took the gist of your idea and with meat in hand started dreaming of banging his secretary. At that point he wasn't reading, he didn't need the story before him, he was letting rosy and her sisters take care of bussiness and the story had become inconsequential. Perhaps some readers do fantasize as they read, but you will never reach them anyway. They only need for you to set the stage and give them a vague idea of characters, from there you can't hope to compete with their imaginations no matter how literate or eloquent you are.

Quote:
He says, "You have control of everything and can decide on clothes, actions, occurances. You even have control of the physical attributes size, structure. If the mention of certain Items come up such as hair color make them brief and not continuous.

You do control everything. In a very real sense you are God, it's your world. But you are a democratic God, and your subjects can vote with their feet so to speak. If you don't tell them what they are seeing, whats going on, paint the world for thier blind eyes, if you are an absentee God so to speak, they won't read it. For me personally hair color, eye color, and other pysical attributes are essential to writing a story. I write F/F stories usually; she, her and proper names wear thin fast. It is much easier and flows much better to write the blonde did this, the brunette did that etc. etc. rather than he did this, she did that, he did this, ad infinitum.

Quote:
He finished with, "People read erotic stories to place themselves and other notables into the story they embark on. Otherwise they watch Porn and the characters are decided for them."

Rubbish. Many people read erotica for precisely the opposite reason. They want to use thier imaginations, they want to know more than what a series of Ooh's and Ahh's can relate. People who watch porno in general don't want to have to think and, by and large, they never have to. The allure of porn is that it's a visual medium, and as visual creatures you can easily appeal to the predominant sense of the audience. Written erotica allows you to appeal to all five senses as well as to appeal to emotion that can't be expressed in a grimace or a lot of squealing.

According to your friend's wisdom Literotica should be 95% writers, putting themselves in stories and few readers. Rather than a handful of writers compared to the readership. Written description does not handicap imagination, it is merely a guide. I can think of five different friends who match the general description "about five six, nice body, firm breasts, pretty face with high cheek bones, blue eyes and long blonde hair." Guess what? None of them look related, much less like twins. If you gave that description to ten artists and asked them to render it, I almost promise none of the ten girls would look like carbon copies. You have given a framework for a person's physical attributes. The reader uses his or her imagination to fill it in.

A story is in the details, you are trying to draw the reader, however briefly, into a world of your creation. You are trying to paint with words the vision you have of the story. Great writers can paint that world so vividly that you would swear you had been there. There is so much you are forced to leave to the reader's imagination. Can you describe how an orgasm feels? Or how a fingernail traced lightly down your spine feels? Can you describe in words the anger, loss, humiliation and hurt that comes when your partner cheats? Can you truly make anyone understand a deep abiding and comfortable love that goes beyond lust? If you can you have far eclipsed me in skill. With so much that you HAVE to leave to the reader's imagination and life experience it is incumbant on you to tell him or her about the things you can describe.

Wow, I'll get off the soap box now.

-Colly

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

IMO....

I am half way between your editor and Colleen on this one.

For me, its about HOW you introduce your character's physical atributes and to what level you detail them out.

For example... don't go on descriptive tirades. You know the ones where the little hitler narrator screams at you for four paragraphs about every minute detail of the character inculding the time they peed the bed at their aunt Sally's house. Rather, I prefer for the author to introduce the person's physical attributes slowly and organically.

I will give you an example with little charts and a plesant powerpoint presentation:

WOK desription NO NO:

Julia had flaming red hair that fell down past the round curve of her ass and was strikingly contrasted by her light blue eyes and pale, freckled skin. Her teeth were straight, but had a small gap between her front two teeth which came off as endearing rather than flaws. Her feet were small and her toes always perfectly manicured.

WOK description YES YES...DEAR GOD YES!:
"I'm not sure if he will make his flight tomorrow," Julia sipped on her wine glass, her angelic pink lips leaving a rounded lipstick impression on the rim. Mark could see the diminutive space between her teeth as she parted her lips in a 'come-hither' smile. "Either way we have tonight," she purred, her blue eyes narrowing into seductive slits.

(OK... upon re-read...even my YES YES one had too much description in too small a space... but you catch the wind, don't ya?)

I don't mind a brief paragraph here and there on appearance when it focuses on only ONE very telling aspect (eg- a paragraph describing just the character's bottom lip, which just happens to be the best feature about them and the feature that the protagonist obsesses on or something to that effect).

Perhaps its not in what you are describing, it is in how you are adding it to the story. Sometimes people don't have too much description, its just too intrusively written.

Of course, I am frequently wrong and wanted in several small countries for impersonating an educated homosapien...so take my advice for what its worth.

~WOK

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Wow!, Colly,
I love you! In a nice respectable way of course. I am printing this as I type. I better wait to call him it is late.

I am not a "Monkey" but I do value this persons opinion highly as he does mine. Then the first 2 posts back (I always review my posts even if I don't post at that time) I know out of context a bit, was hitting me like a brick.
I know what he is speaking of and what his source is from and that is hard for me to dispute. His audience is much bigger than mine and pays.
I do this for "kicks" and writeing skill enhancement.
Still it is a personal flavor I write what I want to read. I think honestly he has a few issues with some of my characters and would rather not have that immage all together.
LOL no I do not write office meeting stories but that was what he was most likely reading. I will have to kick back a bit on that too.
I must say on the last part I do read stories and change details to suit my needs. A blond and a brunette could easily be thought of as a brunette and red head. The size and shape are already etched in my mind of who I want.
A porno does not allow the time to imagine a character so either the star looks like what you wanted or in my case why bother watching they are all stupid. I have never seen a good litterary story as a porn. "No actors with a brain?" I am afraid to post that here. LOL

Thank you Colly you are a sweety

Ps. Would like other opinions also.

Phildo

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Re: IMO....

I am half way between your editor and Colleen on this one.
..........................
Perhaps its not in what you are describing, it is in how you are adding it to the story. Sometimes people don't have too much description, its just too intrusively written.

Of course, I am frequently wrong and wanted in several small countries for impersonating an educated homosapien...so take my advice for what its worth.

~WOK

I could have been a bit more of what/how I write. I tend to give a rather detailed personal opinion discription of each character at the begining and or as they are brought into the story for the first time. After that the mentioning of attributes are left for a particular situation.

This would be an example of my detail into the story: The part he does not like for each character.
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My wife AKA Jenny is a 8+ also in great shape 34 years of age. At five feet two her physique is petit. Shoulder length light brown hair, brown eyes, beautiful smile, cute nose. Being a 32-C cup looks nice on her slender feminine figure.

Her small breasts are accentuated by some extreme nipples. They always look erect but when they are cold or excited they stand massively at three-eighths inch diameter and half inch plus length. On her small figure they stand out and are noticed.

I am not supposed to know her waist size, small. With a "double take" ass that is perfectly contoured and tight. Lifted enough that it makes a nice curve on the waist line.

I want to let you know she has a beautiful pussy. A well shaved only the tiny tuft of hair remains above the clit.

Also unique to her besides being rather tight. Is the "little man in the boat" pokes out extra hard. From any other of my experiences. So when having intercourse the tip of the penis is constantly hitting this and being pushed to either side frequently.

My wife's sexual behavior is nonstop. I know of twenty plus partners that she confessed to before we met. Jenny is the one that she knows how to use what she has.

She knows what men want. But plays she is innocent and would never do anything in appropriate ever. She dresses in a way to show what she has to offer. Yet comes off as she is a business woman and did not notice what she was showing.
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The rest of the story detail type, passive detail
___________________________________________________

I looked up at my wife she was so cute. Dressed in a tank top with minute
straps blue in color. The shirt was tight to her chest mainly white
with little flowers on it. Her chest poked firmly at the material. She was
wearing a matching brief panty. Her hair was tossed about. The nicest
smile, causing her dimples to glow. A slight bounce in her step. She was
on cloud nine very happy.

Jenny moved toward the bed pulled back my covers and crawled up on top
of me. Straddling my waist she snuggled her nose into my neck. Tracing
my cheek with her nose, then to my nose. Looking into my eyes with the
world’s biggest grin kissed my lips.

Jenny whispered, "Thank you! Good morning Hun. In case you can't tell I
am in a wonderful mood this morning."

Jenny ground her vulva into my morning wood. I could feel the warmth of
her crotch as my member sank into the crevice in her panties.
______________________________________________

Could have posted this earlier but it is a lot to chew in one read for a question

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

OK....

I will have to say that based on the exerpt that you gave, I'm gonna have to agree with your friend on this one.

I find that kind of detail at the introduction of a character to break the rhythem of the story and seem more like a laundry list of details rather than something I am terribly interrested in reading because it drives the plot forward.

I am a tad rusty these days on fiction writing...but I know that when I did write a lot of fiction and I was in my inital edit phase... I would ask myself "is this driving the story forward?"...if it didn't... I would take the little red pen and watch it suffer a slow death. It hurts to do this, I know. But just think about those kinds of character describing paragraphs as ones that exist for YOU and not the reader. Once the story is done... yank em out. Chances are all those details exist later in the story where the reader really wants em there.

Of course... if you are just writing for you, and not for an audience...go ahead and keep em. Screw em all.. the story is for you and you alone.

~WOK

PS~ Remember that I only state my own opinion on these matters. That and a dollar could buy you a cup of Dennys coffee.

 

[Sabledrake]

Quote:
Would Long John Silver be Long John Silver without his hook, parrot and peg leg? If R.L. Stevenson had just said a mangey old man would you have imagined him with a hook, peg leg and parrot?

"He had an eighteen-inch peg leg of polished oak that tapered in girth from a stout six inches at the knee to a one-inch iron cap ..."

I don't think he actually did have a hook, though, come to think of it.

There's description, and then there's way too many unnecessary details. I personally back-click anytime I see cited measurements and cup sizes in a story.

Sabledrake

 

[Colleen Thomas]

LOL,

Touche'

I don't think he had a hook either now that you mention it, but I do remember reading the story as a child and the incredible image painted by R.L.S.'s words.

I am not as exacting as most of you in description. I use cup size sometimes, other times analogy, and sometimes just words. I try not to become to rooted in any one particular way of describing things. I think many times the story dictates what you say about a character's appearance and when.

"Breats like ripe melons" dosen't really work too well if the person who is seeing them is a butch lesbian biker. Conversly she was a 36-C dosen't work if the character describing them is an english lady taking ship to the colonies in the 1700's. Slang and colloquialisms have to be tailored to fit a story and in some cases description itself must also be tailored to fit the mood of the piece or perceptions of the person who is giving the description.

Personal style also makes a difference as well as simple preference of the writer.

For me the story is in the details and most of my works are not dialogue driven (for the simple fact I am shy IRL and so my dialogue sufers, since I don't talk much in the first place). I have to depend on the settings, descritions and personalitites of the characters to drive the story forward.

-Colly

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Of course... if you are just writing for you, and not for an audience...go ahead and keep em. Screw em all.. the story is for you and you alone.
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The story is for me but the post is to share. It is not much fun to share if no one wants to read it. Kind of like umm a poem that don't ryme and edgar Allan poe himself is not able to make sense of the stanzas. Now that is scarey!
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For me the story is in the details and most of my works are not dialogue driven (for the simple fact I am shy IRL and so my dialogue sufers, since I don't talk much in the first place). I have to depend on the settings, descritions and personalitites of the characters to drive the story forward.
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How do your characters converse then? Just curious? I know there is many ways what is your choice?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I should be croquettish and suggest you read one of my stories

My characters converse, more so now than in my first stories. I still feel my dialogue is very stilted and forced, so I work to keep conversations to a minimum. I think each of us tries to utilize our strengths to cover our weaknesses. My strength is in desriptive prose, my weakness is dialogue. If two characters walk into a room, I merely describe the room. Someone who writes strong dialogue might have them converse about the room rather than just describing it.

I speak very little and my speech patterns are archaic according to my friends. I have made an effort to listen more when I am out in public and am working to at least try and compensate for my weakness. In each work I try to add a little more dialogue where it is appropriate. I no longer work for hours to write something without dialogue where simple dialogue is the most appropriate recourse. Still, I fear the weakness of my dialogues and try to avoid long conversations between characters when I can see a way out. If I can tell you about it, rather than have my characters tell you about it I do. Part of the reason I choose the POV I use is so the narrator can tell you all about it

-Colly

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Wicked Cool Colly,

First I notice you have 22 stories. I am not a Sci-fi fan not a big fan of lesbian but have read a few that make mister dinkle stir. I am going to read at least one of your stories. Which is the story you like the most and which is the most erotic? From them I will decide if I would like to read another. So often I read a persons story whom has many and I pick one to start with only to find out later it would have been the Authors last choice. Pick one for me babe.

If two characters walk into a room, I merely describe the room. Someone who writes strong dialogue might have them converse about the room rather than just describing it.

I do a little of both because I become slothfull and sluggard in all the quotes , " " blah, " " blah, " " especialy a double quote scene " ' ' " also anoying to keep finding new words instead of says, said I do not like the repeat word factor. I think it stimulates the mind of the reader to constantly use slang or different words through out the whole story even to discribe a single item. Pussy, pussy, pussy gets to be an old crusty pussy fast. Pusy, vulva, womb, .... makes the person think. Of course it depends on the context an may need to be used as a balanceing word too then it remains the same.

Just some of the ones I use off the top of my head are; said,says,speakes,retorted,exclaimed, replied,nonchalantly spoken,poised thought given as,rendering an opinion,yelled,screamed, whispered,responded, communicated to,yeleped,yelping,squeeked a,mumbled,snickerd, called.....

I know there are others.

Let me know what story you think? I am just going to read it not edit it OK. Who knows what happends from there?

Here let me give you my PM address.... Oh you already have it? Must have gotten it from a friend, you came prepared I see.

Phildo

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

I guess comparitively...

my stories are a tad more dialogue driven than others I have read here on the Lit storyboards.

I try to temper it though, since reading large sections of dialogue can become tedious and will also have a tendancy to "explode" a three line section of description into five pages. So, I choose wisely what my characters converse about.

On your remark regarding saying "said" or any of the millions of derrivitaves thereof... I TOTALLY agree about the challenge it can cause.

One of the things I do to attempt to do is to replace "said" or other such wasteful descriptions...is to just focus on the action.

eg-

"I don't know where he went," James took a long drag on his cigarette and waved the smoke from his face as he exhaled. "But, I know he should be back tomorrow."

See how I so cleverly kept from using the evil "said"?

Yep... I'm one clever little monkey. At least that what my trainer says.

Of course don't even think of peeking in on my verb tense...thats a whole other matter altogether.

~WOK

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Uh, asking me to suggest one of my stories is tough. In their own way they are all my babies. Lets see, for a fellow who dosen't neccessarilly like Lesbian.

Better to give suggestions:

Captive Hearts: A love story set in the Carribean during the 1600's with pirates, ship battles and daring rescues.

Resistance: Story set in occupied France in 1943.

A night at the Jefferson part 1: One of my best efforts in the descriptive prose department, set in New Orleans.

A mile in her heels: Short, sweet story about role reversal within the bounds of a loving couple. This one is reccomended by Jigs, another author at the site.

Hope one of them appeals to you

-Colly

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Wok,
This tends to be what I do too as much as possible.
Just something I learned recently from Merriam Websters is what they defined as double quote or quotation marks single category.
"A Handbook of Style Punctuation" Merriam Websters

"I don't know where he went," James took a long drag on his cigarette and waved the smoke from his face as he exhaled. "But, I know he should be back tomorrow."

This is what I was told to do, start with the (") then use a single (') complete the idea, thought, noise,... then (') complete the same quote from the same person and end with (")

So it looks like this;

"I don't know where he went, 'James took a long drag on his cigarette and waved the smoke from his face as he exhaled. ' But, I know he should be back tomorrow."

Another example given; The witness said, "I distincly heard him say, 'Don't be late,' and then heard the door close."

I like this book, for I lack in a lot of proper grammer. I can reduce the amount of editing on my own by strengthening my weakest points which is Spelling and Punctuation. A very good chance with a larger text Dictionary there will be a guide included also.

I found this neat cause I never knew what that key function was for.

Yep... I'm one clever little monkey. At least that what my trainer says.

I found this funny you know that is my only true job. I Play a monkey for a whole week, three times a year. God I love being a monkey. "Eeee,___ Eeee!" Don't ask how you get a job like that?

~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Colly,

Captive Hearts - Carribean during the 1600's with pirates, ship battles and daring rescues.

This is the one for me! I like the theme already. "Excited my mind gets on board the vessel going to the Carribean."

Be back later.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Back it is later

Colleen Thomas,

Captive hearts The story was a 5 alltogether an excellent read. My intrest was captivated, and the flow was more than I expected. Honestly if I was to have taken notes not much would I have commented upon. "e-mail"
I can see why you have many little "H" next to your stories. Most excellent! "e-mail"

Phildo



The story makes me want to become a lesbian. Wait a minute! I already am one, I think. "Am I?" Oh boy! no girl, I got to go figure this one out! check back later

 

[Sabledrake]

also anoying to keep finding new words instead of says, said I do not like the repeat word factor.

For what it's worth, most editors prefer writers to just use "said" instead of all the other more descriptive words. "Said" becomes invisible to the reader and so doesn't matter if it's repeated, and the reader should be able to infer from the line of dialogue itself whether it was declared, stated, exclaimed, etc. Unless it has to do with volume -- whispered and shouted, for instance.

WOK's way works well, too ... alliteration, whee!

Sabledrake

 

[A7inchPhildo]

For what it's worth, most editors prefer writers to just use "said" instead of all the other more descriptive words. "Said" becomes invisible to the reader and so doesn't matter if it's repeated, and the reader should be able to infer from the line of dialogue itself whether it was declared, stated, exclaimed, etc. Unless it has to do with volume -- whispered and shouted, for instance.

WOK's way works well, too ... alliteration, whee!

Sabledrake

I know you are speaking good sense and truth. I do not complain about a story or play that continues to use the "Say"/"Said". I just try to adjust so I am different. Don't mean I am right or wrong or even special it is all just for my own challenge. I do use the... or try to use the other discriptive dialog in proper order.

Many times I will use said/says one after another if that is all that is appropriate. Just saying if I can break it up after ten repeats I do.

Pete and Repeat were out in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?
Pete and Repeat were out in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?
Pete and Repeat were out in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?
Pete and Repeat were out in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?
Pete and Repeat were out in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?
Pete and Repeat were out in a boat. Pete fell out. Who was left?

 

[Colleen Thomas]

A7inchPhildo wrote:

Back it is later

Colleen Thomas,

Captive hearts The story was a 5 alltogether an excellent read. My intrest was captivated, and the flow was more than I expected. Honestly if I was to have taken notes not much would I have commented upon. "e-mail"
I can see why you have many little "H" next to your stories. Most excellent! "e-mail"

Phildo



The story makes me want to become a lesbian. Wait a minute! I already am one, I think. "Am I?" Oh boy! no girl, I got to go figure this one out! check back later


I am really glad you enjoyed the story Trying to decide which of my works a fellow might enjoy was an interesting exercise, I am glad I picked a god one

I think the story also pretty well illustrates the way I drive a story with details and for better or worse skimp on dialogue. Much of the interplay between Abby and Lissa calls for good dialogue, but I tend to let the Narrator explain their feelings rather than than try to bring them out with good dialogue.


On the subject of using said or something more descriptive, I think the best way to write it is to make the dialogue Stand up without anything else. The story Chicklet has in the workshop is a perfect example. She just uses the actual quotes, but the dialogue is so tight you know who is speaking without any other Information. I wish I could write dialogue like that

-Colly

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

Colly...

I have never seen that done with the single dash quotation marks. I publish frequently in magazines and have never had a correction on the type of line I put on here as an example.

Not to say at all that you are not correct. Lord knows there are idiosyncracies to the rules of grammar and what is and is not acceptable in the publishing world.

Rather, I like the single dash quotation mark look. I think it flows much better. I should talk to my agent and see what his copy editor has to say about that style. I think it looks and reads a lot better.

Now on the monkey thing....well... thats a whole different matter..lol.

~WOK

 

[A7inchPhildo]

I have never seen that done with the single dash quotation marks. I publish frequently in magazines and have never had a correction on the type of line I put on here as an example.
____________________________________________________
Wok,
I know you did not mean Colly.

Like I said above this was new to me. And my original find of use is from Merriam Webster. Which in the book on puctuation they give a lot more detail on single quote use. Proper and improper They do not say how ever you can not use (") in the middle of a quote.

Another good source is Owl at Purdue I am going to paste the one of many pages on quotes that they give. BTW they also offer an editing service all is free on this site even online learning. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/

This will most likely kill this thread but here goes. Look for the ***
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Quotation Marks with Direct and Indirect Quotations
Quoting Prose
Direct quotations are another person's exact words--either spoken or in print--incorporated into your own writing.

Use a set of quotation marks to enclose each direct quotation included in your writing.
Use a capital letter with the first word of a direct quotation of a whole sentence. Do not use a capital letter with the first word of a direct quotation of part of a sentence.
If the quotation is interrupted and then continues in your sentence, do not capitalize the second part of the quotation.
Mr. and Mrs. Allen, owners of a 300-acre farm, said, "We refuse to use that pesticide because it might pollute the nearby wells."

Mr. and Mrs. Allen stated that they "refuse to use that pesticide" because of possible water pollution.

"He likes to talk about football," she said, "especially when the Super Bowl is coming up."




Indirect quotations are not exact words but rather rephrasings or summaries of another person's words. Do not use quotation marks for indirect quotations.

According to their statement to the local papers, the Allens refuse to use pesticide because of potential water pollution.


Below are some further explanations and examples of how to integrate quoted prose into your own writing.
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Quotation within a quotation
Use single quotation marks for a quotation enclosed inside another quotation. For example:

The agricultural reporter for the newspaper explained, "When I talked to the Allens last week, they said, 'We refuse to use that pesticide.' "

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Omitted words in a quotation
If you leave words out of a quotation, use an ellipsis mark to indicate the omitted words. If you need to insert something within a quotation, use a pair of brackets to enclose the addition. For example:

full quotation
The welfare agency representative said, "We are unable to help every family that we'd like to help because we don't have the funds to do so."

omitted material with ellipsis
The welfare agency representative said, "We are unable to help every family . . . because we don't have the funds to do so."

added material with brackets
The welfare agency representative explained that they are "unable to help every family that [they would] like to help."


Block quotations
A quotation that extends more than four typed lines on a page should be indented one inch from the left margin (the equivalent of two half-inch paragraph indentations). Maintain double spacing as in the main text, and do not use quotation marks for the block quotation.

Quoting Poetry
Short quotations
When you quote a single line of poetry, write it like any other short quotation. Two lines can be run into your text with a slash mark to indicate the end of the first line. Use quotation marks.

In his poem "Mending Wall," Robert Frost writes: "Something there is that doesn't love a wall, / That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it."


Long quotations
If the quotation is three lines or longer, set it off like a block quotation (see above). Some writers prefer to set off two-line verse quotations also, for emphasis. Quote the poem line by line as it appears on the original page, and do not use quotation marks. Indent one inch from the left margin.

In his poem "Mending Wall," Robert Frost questions the building of barriers and walls:


Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.

Writing Dialogue
Write each person's spoken words, however brief, as a separate paragraph. Use commas to set off dialogue tags such as "she said" or "he explained." Closely related narrative prose can be included in a paragraph with dialogue. If one person's speech goes on for more than one paragraph, use quotation marks to open the speech and at the beginning--but not the end--of each new paragraph in the speech. To close the speech, use quotation marks at the end of the final paragraph.

Quotation Marks for Titles of Minor Works and Parts of Wholes
Use quotation marks for:

titles of short or minor works, such as songs, short stories, essays, short poems, one-act plays, and other literary works that are shorter than a three-act play or a complete book.
titles of parts of larger works, such as chapters in books; articles in newspapers, magazines, journals, or other periodical publications; and episodes of television and radio series.
Use underlining or italics for titles of major works or of works that contain smaller segments such as books; plays of three or more acts; newspapers, magazines, journals, or other periodical publications; films; and television and radio series.

Do not use quotation marks for referring to the Bible or other sacred texts or to legal documents.

Quotation Marks for Words
Use quotation marks to indicate words used ironically, with reservations, or in some unusual way.

The great march of "progress" has left millions impoverished and hungry.


For words used as words themselves or for technical or unfamiliar terms used for the first time (and defined), use italics.

The English word nuance comes from a Middle French word meaning "shades of color."

The use of chiasmus, or the inversion of syntactic elements in parallel phrases, can create rhetorically powerful expressions.


Punctuation with Quotation Marks
Use a comma to introduce a quotation after a standard dialogue tag, a brief introductory phrase, or a dependent clause, for example, "He asked," "She stated," "According to Bronson," or "As Shakespeare wrote." Use a colon to introduce a quotation after an independent clause.

As D. H. Nachas explains, "The gestures used for greeting others differ greatly from one culture to another."

D. H. Nachas explains cultural differences in greeting customs: "Touching is not a universal sign of greeting. While members of European cultures meet and shake hands as a gesture of greeting, members of Asian cultures bow to indicate respect."


Put commas and periods within closing quotation marks, except when a parenthetical reference follows the quotation.

He said, "I may forget your name, but I never remember a face."

History is stained with blood spilled in the name of "civilization."

Mullen, criticizing the apparent inaction, writes, "Donahue's policy was to do nothing" (27).


Put colons and semicolons outside closing quotation marks.

Williams described the experiment as "a definitive step forward"; other scientists disagreed.

Benedetto emphasizes three elements of what she calls her "Olympic journey": family support, personal commitment, and great coaching.


Put a dash, question mark, or exclamation point within closing quotation marks when the punctuation applies to the quotation itself and outside when it applies to the whole sentence.

Philip asked, "Do you need this book?"

Does Dr. Lim always say to her students, "You must work harder"?

Sharon shouted enthusiastically, "We won! We won!"

I can't believe you actually like that song, "If You Wanna Be My Lover"!


Unnecessary Quotation Marks
Do not put quotation marks around the titles of your essays.
Do not use quotation marks for common nicknames, bits of humor, technical terms that readers are likely to know, and trite or well-known expressions.
You can practice these rules by doing the accompanying exercise.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Wok,

From what I have gathered there are several areas in writing that are gray. Do you use quotes for internal monologues? Some say yes, some say so no, others say it's a matter of choice, you have only to be consistent in what you do. While I aspire to be a print published author, like many here I am sure, I have only found the courage to post my works in a public forum in the last two years so I will admit I have done less research into what publishers want than I should.

Most of what has been iparted to me on my grammatical constructions has come from readers. I use alot of odd constructions, so I am probably not the one to say anything about grammar. In general my critique's of works avoid anything grammar related unless I catch a typo.

In this case, I was instructed by a professional writer, who is published in both the field of fiction and is also a published technical writer. It was her opinion that using said after each spoken line gave the work a staccatto feel that harmed the flow. Using more expressive ways of saying said was simply mental gymnastics and all to often lead to a flowery feel. She suggested letting the dialogue stand alone when it would, using said only when the spoken line was ambiguous in who might have utered it. Of course this only works well with a conversation between two speakers. If you have more involved you are slmost forced to identify the speaker after each line.

I have come to believe incresingly that many gramatical conventions are matters of style. If your style of writing eshews the use of said and you are good at doing it that way, people will forgive you for being less than gramatically correct, no matter what the convetion is. Likewise if you quote interior monlogues or do not as long as you are consistent in what you do and it is clear to a reader what you are doing, no one will hammer you too hard if it turns out your choice isn't MLA approved. Dialogue is my weak point and I try to avoid it when I can get away with it anyway When I am forced to write dialogues I tend to avoid said at the end of each utterance. I am already worried that the dialogue is stilted and that staccato feel of said, said, said seems to really magnify the problems I see in my dialogues flow.



-Colly

 

[A7inchPhildo]

Colly,
A lot of the enjoyment had to do with the Manly atmosphere given to your story. Sailing a large ship in those days has always been a fantasy of mine. The Caibean is another!

To all concerned I am not saying what is right or wrong about "quotes" Just something I stumbled upon. I think either way is good enough for me but I am not a litterary major either.
Phil

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

I never...

know if what I am doing is gramatically correct or not. I just kinda go with the flow and I don't seem to fuck up too often.

I've learned to avoid major pitfalls... such as comma splices and incorrect attribution. I am also in mortal fear of pronouns. I can never use them and not dig myself into a hole of confusion.

I also have a verb tense issue that generally requires MAJOR revision at the end. I try not to obsess over it too much in the first draft or I will dry up, so to speak.

For the record... I usually do not use quotations on internal monologue. I just think its too awkward.

And believe it or not, I also avoid dashes and elipses when I can. But...obviously not during casual dialogue...lol.

Phil- I don't think anyone thought u were judging anything. I personally ejoy a discussion about idividual writing styles. Its great to see what other real life writers are doing rather than just reading about it.

~WOK

 

[wornoutkeyboard]

Re: I never...

For the record... I usually do not use quotations on internal monologue. I just think its too awkward.

[/B]

Here's a good example... should I have used:

For the record... I do not usually use quotations on internal monologue.

I think it sounded too passive the first time around.

I also have an issue of writing in the passive voice.

~WOK

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Philo,

The first book I read for myself was R.L. Stevens's Treasure Island. I was hooked and have read many others since. I also have my own pirate fantasy from which Lissa is stolen almost in her entirety

This story is one of my favorites, but also shows how much importance I put on details. From her swords, to her pistols, to the ship types and their armaments, everything in this story is factually correct. Even the island and the cove exist in reality. I am really glad you enjoyed it

-Colly