Black Lives Matter

[sirhugs]

With the backlash against BBC stories, and interracial generally, would be curious to read a story from the POV of a POC who feels guilty about their attraction to lily white ladies...or you could reverse the gender I suppose.

 

[SisterJezabel]

I think the backlash is not the interracial aspect, but how POC are perceived- large men with huge cocks who prey on tiny white women; Asians who have the tightest pussy ever known to man; Aussie blokes who couldn't organise a fuck in a brothel with a fist full of fifties...

Are you building someone up in an IR story? Is the woman truly intrigued that she is on a date and the cops pull over her partner because he's black? This is surely a new experience for her. How does she feel?

I have a story in my queue where she is a cop and he is a black man and they have been dating for several months when a local incident happens (black death in custody being in an Aussie context) and how this affects their relationship. It's hard going to write. I probably won't post it in the IR category though because I doubt it would be well received. Or perhaps that is why I need to post it there!

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Hmmm... I'm currently working on a story where the white wife is fucking the black husband down the street who is a cop. Meanwhile, the white husband of the wife fucking the cop is fucking his black wife.

 

[sirhugs]

Hmmm... I'm currently working on a story where the white wife is fucking the black husband down the street who is a cop. Meanwhile, the white husband of the wife fucking the cop is fucking his black wife.

My thoughts are less about the racial identity and more about avoiding the typical stereotypes, to re-invigorate the category.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Reversing the roles just gives you mirror image of the problem. It doesn't correct or ameliorate the problem.

I think that if authors want to recognize the problem and contribute to the solution, the best way would be to write stories in which you have characters of color acting like full and complete people, and not filling in the blank for a trope.

Anything we do that relies on a racial trope only reinforces the problem.

You also may not be aware of the hotbed you're heading into with that particular version. There has been raging debate for years in communities of color about dating outside of their race, particularly dating white people. You would be stirring a pot that's already simmering.

Black lives matter means that black people matter as people, as individuals. Writing about black characters of a different type of stereotype doesn't seem to honor that.

 

[loquere]

Reversing the roles just gives you mirror image of the problem. It doesn't correct or ameliorate the problem.

I think that if authors want to recognize the problem and contribute to the solution, the best way would be to write stories in which you have characters of color acting like full and complete people, and not filling in the blank for a trope.

Anything we do that relies on a racial trope only reinforces the problem.

You also may not be aware of the hotbed you're heading into with that particular version. There has been raging debate for years in communities of color about dating outside of their race, particularly dating white people. You would be stirring a pot that's already simmering.

Black lives matter means that black people matter as people, as individuals. Writing about black characters of a different type of stereotype doesn't seem to honor that.

I agree.

 

[subliminalmassage]

With the backlash against BBC stories, and interracial generally, would be curious to read a story from the POV of a POC who feels guilty about their attraction to lily white ladies...or you could reverse the gender I suppose.

Has there been much of a backlash? I've been researching around this topic and not seen an unusual amount of thoughts spilled. I've been reading stuff from as far back as Unpacking The Invisible Knapsack, the essay that (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here) coined the phrase 'White Privilege'.

I have begun a story which features a stereotypical black male protagonist, at least from the PoV of the white people he encounters. Then we switch back and forth from his to their PoV, and find he's both self-aware and self-conscious about the way the world views him, and has adopted some of the tropes of the stereotype as a defence mechanism. He's less guarded around less dangerous people. He has complex views around his own sexuality. He's tired of being treated this way but it's fundamentally easier to be the person people expect you to be than deal with the interminable need to educate the confrontationally ignorant.

At times i feel like its a worthwhile story to tell. At others I feel like its an incredibly fucked up, wrong headed thing to do. It is at least a valuable exercise for me, though one I am starting to suspect shall not be on show for general viewing.

Not sure why he, or anyone, would feel guilty about being attracted to... anyone. I personally would love to see a story that examines the social/structural factors that give rise to these feelings, but I am perhaps asking too much of my porn.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

My thoughts are less about the racial identity and more about avoiding the typical stereotypes, to re-invigorate the category.

Mine's going into Loving Wives.

 

[sirhugs]

Mine's going into Loving Wives.

yet another dangerous choice...

 

[Zeb_Carter]

yet another dangerous choice...

Well, if you haven't looked at what I write and where I post...

I live dangerously.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

My thoughts are less about the racial identity and more about avoiding the typical stereotypes, to re-invigorate the category.

Yeah... When I write and even in RL, I really don't see the color of skin being a problem. I write characters and the only reason I mention skin color is because the read doesn't know what I, the Author, knows until I tell them.

I had one character, which was the best buddy of the main male protag and never mentioned his skin color until the third installment of the story. Each installment was over 50K words. I have done this in several of my stories.

 

[RetroFan]

I quite enjoy writing about people from different racial backgrounds having sex, it makes it interesting. For example, in one of my stories I have an Asian girl and an African-American guy, a combination you don't see too often. One fetish story I wrote full of shock comedy had a blonde trashy white girl from a trailer park and her young Latina best friend who is from a housing project. In another story I have a white girl and black girl having some lesbian fun, but in this one I invert the tropes and have the white, blonde Caucasian girl being intelligent and more streetwise, while the African American girl is dumb and naive. In a haunted house story I wrote a white guy has sex with his stepsister who is of Egyptian origin, and in another an overweight Jewish girl loses her virginity to a handsome black guy who has a fat fetish.

 

[perhygurl19]

With the backlash against BBC stories, and interracial generally, would be curious to read a story from the POV of a POC who feels guilty about their attraction to lily white ladies...or you could reverse the gender I suppose.

I think it would be interesting to read a story of a radically liberal White couple who tries to absolve their "white guilt" by voluntarily becoming slaves to a black family. Things start off innocent but eventually the black family takes full advantage of them and starts to use them as they wish. The black couple ends up using the white woman to pleasure them sexually while the white man is cuckholded and humiliated for their entertainment serving and obeying their orders.

 

[naughtygaywriter]

The backlash is against the fetishising of POC. Use of descriptions like "BBC" reduce the person to nothing more than that of livestock. Its a dehumanizing to be used as an "experience" that people check off on a box of things they've done, trying to prove they aren't "racist" by saying they've slept with a POC once in their life or trying to absolve themselves of "white guilt. "Race play" has become a popular new kink for people across the racial spectrum. I've blocked many of individual that just wanted to sleep with me because of my Latin heritage or they wanted to call me or me call them racial slurs.

 

[SimonDoom]

I take a somewhat different view. I see Literotica as a creative fantasy space where people should feel free to explore and indulge their fantasies in writing.

There's no question in my mind that the entire Interracial category is uncomfortable because of the assumption inherent in it that there's something unusual, or taboo, or extra "spicy" about people of different races hooking up. Black-white interracial stories in particular tend to rest on stereotypes and this sense of taboo. I think it's hard to avoid these stereotypes fully when writing these stories.

But does that mean people should feel guilty about reading or writing them? Well, why? It seems to me the only reason one would feel guilty is if one believes that the writing of these stories has some kind of harmful effect -- that it perpetuates stereotypes in the real world that we are likely to act on, and that we will discriminate against people in the real world because of the stories we're reading or writing.

I'm profoundly skeptical of this view. I'm open to the possibility, if shown evidence, but I haven't seen evidence of it, and I'm doubtful. I've done a lot of reading on this subject and I believe the relationship between speech and conduct is extremely complex. It's possible that by indulging in fantasies we are more likely to act on them. Or, it's possible they serve a cathartic purpose -- we may be LESS likely to act on them if we have an opportunity to vent them through stories. This is the view toward which I am inclined. It's possible too that by playing with stereotypes in stories, or by reversing them, we confront head on the assumptions that underlie them and, in the long run, we become wiser and more tolerant. I'm inclined to believe this, too. I'm inclined to believe it is better for us to be free in fiction to confront head on our dark side than to repress it or pretend it isn't there.

People have rape fantasies, and they read and write rape fantasy stories. Will the incidence of rape go up because of the indulgence of these stories? I doubt it. Will the incidence of incest go up because of incest stories? I doubt it. Similarly, I doubt very much that the indulgence of racial stereotypes in interracial erotic stories will increase the amount of racial discrimination in the real world.

None of this is to say there isn't a lot of room for artistic growth in this category. There's plenty of opportunity to write interracial stories that treat characters in a more complex and nuanced way, and if the Black Lives Matter movement motivates people to write such stories, that's a good thing. But no one, I believe, should feel guilty writing or reading stories that play on their fantasies, whatever those fantasies may be. I believe Literotica should be a guilt-free zone.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I take a somewhat different view. I see Literotica as a creative fantasy space where people should feel free to explore and indulge their fantasies in writing.

There's no question in my mind that the entire Interracial category is uncomfortable because of the assumption inherent in it that there's something unusual, or taboo, or extra "spicy" about people of different races hooking up. Black-white interracial stories in particular tend to rest on stereotypes and this sense of taboo. I think it's hard to avoid these stereotypes fully when writing these stories.

But does that mean people should feel guilty about reading or writing them? Well, why? It seems to me the only reason one would feel guilty is if one believes that the writing of these stories has some kind of harmful effect -- that it perpetuates stereotypes in the real world that we are likely to act on, and that we will discriminate against people in the real world because of the stories we're reading or writing.

I'm profoundly skeptical of this view. I'm open to the possibility, if shown evidence, but I haven't seen evidence of it, and I'm doubtful. I've done a lot of reading on this subject and I believe the relationship between speech and conduct is extremely complex. It's possible that by indulging in fantasies we are more likely to act on them. Or, it's possible they serve a cathartic purpose -- we may be LESS likely to act on them if we have an opportunity to vent them through stories. This is the view toward which I am inclined. It's possible too that by playing with stereotypes in stories, or by reversing them, we confront head on the assumptions that underlie them and, in the long run, we become wiser and more tolerant. I'm inclined to believe this, too. I'm inclined to believe it is better for us to be free in fiction to confront head on our dark side than to repress it or pretend it isn't there.

People have rape fantasies, and they read and write rape fantasy stories. Will the incidence of rape go up because of the indulgence of these stories? I doubt it. Will the incidence of incest go up because of incest stories? I doubt it. Similarly, I doubt very much that the indulgence of racial stereotypes in interracial erotic stories will increase the amount of racial discrimination in the real world.

None of this is to say there isn't a lot of room for artistic growth in this category. There's plenty of opportunity to write interracial stories that treat characters in a more complex and nuanced way, and if the Black Lives Matter movement motivates people to write such stories, that's a good thing. But no one, I believe, should feel guilty writing or reading stories that play on their fantasies, whatever those fantasies may be. I believe Literotica should be a guilt-free zone.

Consider that you are saying this in response to someone saying that they have been hurt by this.

I understand you feel compelled to present the argument that writers don't need to consider the impact of their words. To me, that sells the power of writing short. The larger point is that every issue isn't appropriate to turn into a hobby horse for this point of view. Admittedly, I'm a little upset about it, but that's because some people you respect and like were very hurt by a very recent rendition of this.

Please reconsider the vehicles you choose. Nobody's post revealing personal pain should be used to try to advance your position.

 

[bettiezyx]

Experiment

After writing a couple of stories, decided to experiment with providing as few details as possible on race. My characters were my characters by personality traits & only those physical traits that played a role in the plot, such as dimples or musculature. I wanted to encourage readers to put themselves into the positions of the hero/heroine & apply their own visualizations to the characters around them. Sometimes I leave it vague & sometimes it feels like a detail is necessary, like eye color. However, even with that characteristic, say brown skin, there's a whole lot of races for the reader to draw from for their visuals.

 

[SimonDoom]

Consider that you are saying this in response to someone saying that they have been hurt by this.

I wrote in response to the OP's initial comment, and to the thread as a whole, not in response to one particular person. I don't know what you are referring to. My response was not intended to dispute one person's perspective, or to deny any hurt that someone felt.

I understand you feel compelled to present the argument that writers don't need to consider the impact of their words. To me, that sells the power of writing short. The larger point is that every issue isn't appropriate to turn into a hobby horse for this point of view. Admittedly, I'm a little upset about it, but that's because some people you respect and like were very hurt by a very recent rendition of this.

No. I never said writers don't need to consider the impact of their words and I don't believe that. I believe the relationship between words and deeds is complicated. Different people can take different attitudes toward the power of words and how they can be used. I believe we benefit as a society when we give writers the maximum possible freedom to express themselves as they wish, and when we see what happens as a result. I'm not trying to troll or bait when I say that: I really believe it. So I'm going to say it.

It's tendentious and unfair of you to dismiss my attitude as one of turning this into my "hobby horse." I am no more riding my hobby horse than you are riding yours. I have my opinion; you have yours. I'm as free to express mine as you are yours. I think I've done so in a way that is not personal or insulting. I note that you haven't actually disputed anything I've written. If you disagree with what I say, then disagree with me, but don't tell me I can't give my opinion, which is effectively what you are doing.

Please reconsider the vehicles you choose. Nobody's post revealing personal pain should be used to try to advance your position.

That's not a fair characterization of what I've done.

And please tell me, what vehicle should I use to give my opinion? My impression is that you wouldn't approve of any vehicle for me to do that in Literotica forums.

I am curious, and I don't mean this in a snarky way: what exactly is your attitude? Should we decline ever to say or write things that may give offense or give pain? If not, then where do we draw the line? These are issues worth addressing no matter how difficult they may be to discuss.

I believe, as a matter of principle, that our society has gone way too far in making "giving offense"a sin to be avoided at all costs. I think there are enormous costs to that attitude. In making that point, I have no wish to give offense to particular people. I don't take pleasure in doing that, and it's not why I write what I write. But I'm going to make my point, as civilly as I can. If you disagree, please disagree. I'll listen. But don't try to silence me.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I wrote in response to the OP's initial comment, and to the thread as a whole, not in response to one particular person. I don't know what you are referring to. My response was not intended to dispute one person's perspective, or to deny any hurt that someone felt.



No. I never said writers don't need to consider the impact of their words and I don't believe that. I believe the relationship between words and deeds is complicated. Different people can take different attitudes toward the power of words and how they can be used. I believe we benefit as a society when we give writers the maximum possible freedom to express themselves as they wish, and when we see what happens as a result. I'm not trying to troll or bait when I say that: I really believe it. So I'm going to say it.

It's tendentious and unfair of you to dismiss my attitude as one of turning this into my "hobby horse." I am no more riding my hobby horse than you are riding yours. I have my opinion; you have yours. I'm as free to express mine as you are yours. I think I've done so in a way that is not personal or insulting. I note that you haven't actually disputed anything I've written. If you disagree with what I say, then disagree with me, but don't tell me I can't give my opinion, which is effectively what you are doing.




That's not a fair characterization of what I've done.

And please tell me, what vehicle should I use to give my opinion? My impression is that you wouldn't approve of any vehicle for me to do that in Literotica forums.

I am curious, and I don't mean this in a snarky way: what exactly is your attitude? Should we decline ever to say or write things that may give offense or give pain? If not, then where do we draw the line? These are issues worth addressing no matter how difficult they may be to discuss.

I believe, as a matter of principle, that our society has gone way too far in making "giving offense"a sin to be avoided at all costs. I think there are enormous costs to that attitude. In making that point, I have no wish to give offense to particular people. I don't take pleasure in doing that, and it's not why I write what I write. But I'm going to make my point, as civilly as I can. If you disagree, please disagree. I'll listen. But don't try to silence me.

Please dial down the drama. I'm not trying to silence you. That's not a reasonable interpretation and that's not even a possibility. I asked you to think about the impact of what you're doing in the way you're doing it. I'm serious when I say you recently really hurt some people. I know this for a fact, and they're people I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have wanted to hurt. It feels like the debate club mentality is overriding compassion for and awareness of other people.

You ask, where should you make your point? I realize that was intended to be rhetorical, but it's one of those rhetorical questions that's intended to undermine a point without addressing its merits. So, here's how you can make your point without being hurtful.

1. Don't ever turn someone's "I'm hurt by X" comment into your opportunity to argue a point that you want to make wherever you find a place to apply it. Just don't do it. You are not accomplishing some noble goal that trumps the need to be considerate of that person's feelings. Find another way to make your point.
2. If you find yourself unable to follow the first suggestion, for God's sake, at least acknowledge the person's feelings. It really doesn't fix the problem, but it is the very barest minimum token of respect for another person's pain.
3. Start your own thread about your beliefs on this point. That way you can argue about the principle without hurting the people.
4. Think about looking at your position a different way. Instead of starting with an absolute (which you know you'll have to back away from anyway if presented with extreme examples), make the discussion about WHERE the balance is. Because you know there's a balance. Think about making your post about how we should balance one interest versus the other interest.

As far as me riding a hobby horse here, I said nothing about the merits of your argument. Absolutely nothing. Look at that very brief comment again, and ask yourself where I make any point at all about the argument you were trying to make. It was nothing more than a request that you not do things to hurt people just because you want to make a point. Everyone is very, very well of your position on that issue.

As to whether it's okay to be hurtful, I'll point out that you are extremely sensitive to perceived slights yourself, even when people are being very polite to you. You are the beneficiary of quite a bit of tact. People have a "right" to express things about your points in a way you would find very hurtful, but just because the right is there doesn't mean it should be done. It's not unreasonable to ask that you, as the beneficiary of the courtesy, extend it to others. Even if you weren't the beneficiary of it, or didn't feel any benefit from it, don't you want to be considerate?

If there's an important point to be made that can't be made without being hurtful, obviously it does have to be made. You know perfectly well that I have never suggested that expression of ideas should be stifled to prevent offense. Asking someone to find a way to express those ideas in an easily available and accessible manner that does not hurt someone is not an attack on freedom of expression.

I still have not addressed the substance of your argument about whether a writer ought to consider the broader impacts of their writing. The omission is deliberate. This isn't the place for it. That's not what this thread is about.

Put in the simplest terms, I'm just asking you to think about and give more weight to other people's feelings. If the argument is more important to you, consider that your argument would be more effective if you took people's feelings into consideration and made the argument in places where its use wasn't an illustration of its drawbacks.

I know you'r'e not going to like this post, either. You're gong to be angry and you're going to think I'm not being fair. Assume for the sake of argument that I'm just the meanest, most overbearing bitch ever. (Not having a hard time with that one?) Set that aside. Regardless of who you think I am, or what you think my motivations are, there are things in what I've said that you can look at objectively. I believe you can benefit from them. At the very least, it's not going to hurt to consider that your approach is less than perfect and can benefit from taking some of those points into consideration.

 

[SisterJezabel]

I added two minor characters based on people I actually I know in a recent story- one was descended from a Chinese person who came across in the Goldrush of the 1800s and my friend still gets asked where she's from (the earliest family I can trace arriving in Australia was in the 1980s so after her!) and an hilarious colleague who is a proud Torres Strait Islander man (First Australian) who is always complaining he missed out on the BBC gene! I also included a Filipino nurse and and Indian doctor, both of which are extremely common in these parts. These were all minor characters, but also represent the melting pot that is medecine away from the major cities, although a lot of the major cities now have health professionals who are from more diverse backgrounds than what a lot of medical dramas show on television for instance!

Of course my favourite Scottish doctor was on the phone to me at work this morning. I could listen to him for hours with that accent, but he's a bloody wanker!

 

[sirhugs]

...

Of course my favourite Scottish doctor was on the phone to me at work this morning. I could listen to him for hours with that accent, but he's a bloody wanker!

does that mean you wank to wank him? sounds like a medical setting story to me.

 

[Funit]

Aussie blokes who couldn't organise a fuck in a brothel with a fist full of fifties...

This made me laugh.