Biphobia and community.

[naudiz]

Okay, I've had some sleep and coffee. This is a necessary element in fueling the naudiz-babble mechanism.

First of all, for those who have no idea who I am, hi. I'm Naudiz. I'm bi. I'm married. I'm opinionated, and I believe strongly in the necessity of community.

The other thread on bisexuality, whose name evades me at the moment, got me to thinking about biphobia, and the different things bisexuals face that gays and lesbians don't, and how talking about this stuff might lead to a better understanding. Here's to hoping, anyway.

In some ways, we're all in this together. Sexual identity that deviates from 'one man one woman' is often considered suspect, and in that we're all in the same boat. It's the grey area that gets confusing, because there are people who are A-OK with homosexuality, but can't stand bisexuality. In my own family, my folks are very open minded about being gay, but when it comes to bisexuality, they get venomous. "Pick a side!" I've heard. "They're just promiscuous, they'll fuck anything!"

It's ironic that my folks could handle me being a lesbian, but they don't know what to do about me being bi. So they ignore it. I'm married, I must be straight. Phew, dodged a bullet there.

In the gay community, I've had my sexuality ignored too. I can't count the times my presence there has been explained away as me being a fag hag. Like it's okay if I'm a mascot, but I don't deserve full membership.

So what is it about bisexuality that makes normally open-minded people balk? Whenever there's bigotry, the first thing I do is ask myself, "What are these people afraid of?" Because hate comes down to fear. So how does being bi threaten anyone?

I don't ask that question innocently. I have my own ideas, but I'm truly interested in seeing what other people have to say about it. It's in understanding this that we work out how to deal with it.

I've got a lot more to say, but like I said, I really want to know what other people think, and I'd rather encourage a discussion than dominate it.

So. What's the deal with bisexuality anyway?

 

[Netzach]

The most biphobia I encountered was on a very marxist-feminist college campus. Now being a polymorphous pervert is chic there, and most other places I travel in and I'm more redundant than feared.

The big bugaboo was all that straight privilege. I guess. I don't think the straight people really smile on a girl who likes to do her guys up the ass almost exclusively, and likes girls too, any girls not too marxist to fuck, but it's true I *could* forgo broadcasting that and pass as normal hetero.

Only I can't. Because I'm not wired that way. It's like telling a Jew they could just eat pork and sing Silent Night and pass, so they carry the same privilege in society as a Christian. Maybe they could but it doesn't mean the *would* or *can bring themselves to*

 

[infinityoverzero]

I think that one problem that people have with bisexuality is that straight people can easily seperate themselves from gays and lesbians (and vice versa). Looking at the world this way, there is no overlap in terms of sexual desire or needs. As a result, it becomes easy to place the other at an arms length away from oneself.

However, when you're getting into bi territory, the boundaries become more blurry. The distance seperating a monosexual (if I can use the term) from a bisexual is smaller than the distance between gay and straight, as a monosexual cab at least partly identify with bisexual (as they share a similar attraction to one of the genders). However, this can pose a threat to a monosexual - "If that person can feel attracted to both, why can't I?" Best case, the monosexual starts exploring their "bi-potential", or at least try to gain insight into the concept of bisexuality. Worse case, they try to shut down the threat, and anything that reminds them of it (ie. bisexual people).

Just to make it clear, while I believe that nobody is exclusively monosexual, I don't believe that everyone is really bisexual either. Also, I don't mean to imply that all monosexuals are inherently suspicious of bisexuals or "the other side". There are obviously many people who are supportive of bisexuals, so don't get me wrong here.

Well, that's my 2 cents and my almost completed bachelor's degree in psych for you (not worth a lot, eh? ).

--Infinity

PS I believe the other thread you are referring to is at:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=204818
I made a post there today, if you want to see some of my other thoughts.

 

[naudiz]

I think straight privilege is a myth that needs to be dispelled about bisexuality. You hit it on the head -- sure, we can pass. If we want to live a lie. Maybe some people are comfortable doing that. I personally don't believe in forced outings of anyone. If you want to keep your sexuaity private, that's a personal choice, and one I'm going to respect.

But saying that, because a bisexual can choose a partner of the opposite sex, they can just slide right into straight society and go unnoticed and unjudged isn't accurate. I mean if you put it that way, anyone can, but it involves secrecy, lies, and denial.

This whole Marriage Protection Week thing really pissed me off. I'm married. My husband and I are both furious about it, and so are straight couples we're friends with. Yeah, people are going to assume I'm straight if they see me walking down the street hand in hand with my husband, and I'm not going to take the time to correct every single person I see, because I don't have that kind of time and I really don't care what people I don't know think.

But at the same time, the idea that marriage needs 'protected' is an insult, particularly given that I'm not straight. What people might perceive at straight privilege I see as a vile insult. It's like accepting Nazi gold. I don't want this 'privilege' at the cost of my community. I don't want my situation, fortunate as it may be, held up as a shining example of what my own community should be denied. It's a slap in the face. There's straight privilege for you.

We're dealing with a lot of perceptions that exist outside our own. If you're not bisexual, than thinking like a bisexual isn't going to come easily. Just like I can't really imagine anyone being attracted to exclusively one gender -- that just doesn't seem natural to me. But you have to take it on faith, and let people define themselves. Talking about it, coming out and speaking up, has made a lot of progress in the fight for gay rights. Maybe doing the same will help offset biphobia.

Yeah, there probably are people who are comfortable passing, but I'm not one of them.

 

[naudiz]

I think that one problem that people have with bisexuality is that straight people can easily seperate themselves from gays and lesbians (and vice versa). Looking at the world this way, there is no overlap in terms of sexual desire or needs. As a result, it becomes easy to place the other at an arms length away from oneself.

However, when you're getting into bi territory, the boundaries become more blurry. The distance seperating a monosexual (if I can use the term) from a bisexual is smaller than the distance between gay and straight, as a monosexual cab at least partly identify with bisexual (as they share a similar attraction to one of the genders). However, this can pose a threat to a monosexual - "If that person can feel attracted to both, why can't I?" Best case, the monosexual starts exploring their "bi-potential", or at least try to gain insight into the concept of bisexuality. Worse case, they try to shut down the threat, and anything that reminds them of it (ie. bisexual people).

Just to make it clear, while I believe that nobody is exclusively monosexual, I don't believe that everyone is really bisexual either. Also, I don't mean to imply that all monosexuals are inherently suspicious of bisexuals or "the other side". There are obviously many people who are supportive of bisexuals, so don't get me wrong here.

Well, that's my 2 cents and my almost completed bachelor's degree in psych for you (not worth a lot, eh? ).

--Infinity

PS I believe the other thread you are referring to is at:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=204818
I made a post there today, if you want to see some of my other thoughts.

That's the one! And having read your post, it got me thinking about my husband. He's attracted to men physically, as well as women, but he doesn't categorize himself. At all. He doesn't call himself straight or bi. He actually calls himself Naudizsexual, but he's very sweet.

I wish so much I could take his slant on things sometimes. He just doesn't let it bother him. The politics get him riled, like they do me, and we support the same causes, but whereas I'm a rabid sign-waving parade-marching wolverine, he's this laid back guy who just doesn't have a damned thing to prove. Or deny. Hell, I write gay erotica, and he's one of my biggest fans.

Yeah, I'm keeping this one.

I think the degrees of separation angle is one worth exploring. I also don't believe anyone is exclusively monosexual, since that term seems to work. Biologically speaking, anyway. Where we start to get into definitions is where personal comfort comes into it, and also how one relates to both genders. I've got friends who consider themselves straight, even though they're into lesbian erotica and fantasizing about lesbian scenarios. Because when push comes to shove, while they might get off on the idea of hot girl-on-girl action, they relate emotionally to men, and that's where their romantic interests lie.

Not everyone is that comfortable with the shape their fantasies take, though, and if those kinds of thoughts aren't uncommon, then I could easily see where someone might get confused and a little worried. I mean if there's only gay or straight, and you like the opposite gender, then it doesn't matter what you fantasize about because you're straight.

Then we bisexuals have to come in and fuck everything up by 'having our cake and eating it too.' Which is another load of bull, but it's also a rant for another time.

Some of us are just destined to come in and mess up everyone's neat little black and white picture of the way things should be. But, like gays and lesbians, we're here. We're everywhere. And we're not going to go away.

 

[Queersetti]

I think everyone has made good points, and in particular Infinity made comments I think are very much on the mark.

Bisexuality frightens many gays as well as straights because it undermines the certainty of self identification.

I'll speak just from the gay perspective, and hopefully, we might hear a straight voice address the issue.

I think that for many gays, the struggle to understand and accept their sexuality is long and grueling. Once that acceptance has been reached, they are going to be very unreceptive to anything that would seem to call that identity into question. For some, acknowledgment of the existence of bisexuality does exactly that, and so, many gays will persist in believing that all bis are really either just gays in denial, or scrupleless sexual tourists.

In addition, I think a small minority of gays refuse to acknowledge bis as a purely political stance. While I don't share their view, I can understand where they are coming from. There have certainly been many instances where gay organizations and institutions have been opened to bis, only to have the bis then marginalize the gays within their own communities.

And, as I said on the other thread, there is a great deal of distrust towards bis among gays because so many gays feel they have been burned by entering relationships with people who then decided that they has just been "going through a phase".

I'm glad we are discussing this, it's certainly an issue on which open discussion can have a very profound positive effect.

 

[infinityoverzero]

Queersetti brings up some good points. I think that there is mistrust (on both sides) between gays/lesbians and bis. One reason that I haven't joined any GLBT group is that I do worry that I won't be accepted or accused of being bi just for the sex, especially since I'm very straight-acting in public and engaged to a woman to boot. I realize that this fear is most likely irrational and that most people at GLBT meeting would be supportive (and I am trying to work over that fear), but it's still hard to consider outing myself to a group which might not support me.

I think that both sides not listening to each other along with pervasive stereotypes is the root cause of this rift. Discussions like the one we're having on Lit here is a good thing, and I hope that one day I'll be comfortable coming out and helping educate others as well.

I don't know anyone on the board who's straight except my SO, and given that she fully accepts me I don't think she would be an unbiased observer. BTW Naudiz, my SO and I sound like you and your husband (though she's not bi) - I'm more laid back, while my SO is more stand-up-for-our-rights in-your-face type (but I love her to bits )

--Infinity

 

[peachykeen]

Then we bisexuals have to come in and fuck everything up by 'having our cake and eating it too.' Which is another load of bull, but it's also a rant for another time.

I have to say that some of the people who have pissed me off most in the whole 'bisexuality' debate (for lack of a better word) are the people who are bi and say things like "Well any man/woman who wants to be with me/be married to me/whatever has to understand that I'm not going to be able to be faithful just to them because I'm bisexual. I need to have sex with both men and women." That just irritates the crap out of me. Aren't we supposed to love someone and want to be in a relationship or marriage with them because of the person they are, and not because of the shape of their genitals? Why persist in reinforcing this stereotype that we bi's are just indecisive and selfish?

That was my rant. It's been buggin me a while.

 

[infinityoverzero]

I have to say that some of the people who have pissed me off most in the whole 'bisexuality' debate (for lack of a better word) are the people who are bi and say things like "Well any man/woman who wants to be with me/be married to me/whatever has to understand that I'm not going to be able to be faithful just to them because I'm bisexual. I need to have sex with both men and women." That just irritates the crap out of me. Aren't we supposed to love someone and want to be in a relationship or marriage with them because of the person they are, and not because of the shape of their genitals? Why persist in reinforcing this stereotype that we bi's are just indecisive and selfish?

That was my rant. It's been buggin me a while.

When I came out to my SO, she was worried a bit that she wouldn't be able to satisfy all of my desires, but in the end she did realize that I love her and the chance of me cheating on her with a guy is as slim as me cheating on her with a girl. After all, I can still explore and enjoy both sides of me through fantasy with her ...

Anyway, I see where you're coming from with your complaint. I think that what people have to realize is just because we are capable of having a relationship with men and women doesn't mean that we need both of them at the same time, or that one gender alone can't satisfy us.

--Infinity

 

[naudiz]

I think that for many gays, the struggle to understand and accept their sexuality is long and grueling. Once that acceptance has been reached, they are going to be very unreceptive to anything that would seem to call that identity into question. For some, acknowledgment of the existence of bisexuality does exactly that, and so, many gays will persist in believing that all bis are really either just gays in denial, or scrupleless sexual tourists.

This is a critical point, and while, from the bisexual perspective, my gut instinct is to say, "Well I exist too, so get over it," I think it's important here to maintain a sense of compassion and understanding. Coming out and self-acceptance is tough. I've gone through it, and I've seen many friends through it as well. There is nothing easy about 'getting over it' and the process can take a lifetime.

But at the same time, it should be understood that coming out as bi isn't easy either, and there's a twisted irony in taking a stance that says, "I have a right to exist," and then turn around and tell someone else, "but you don't, because your existence threatens me."

My sincere hope is that these are growing pains in the community, and that as self-acceptance becomes easier, the urge to push away anything that calls that acceptance into question will fade away. We're all finding our way, and since this whole concept of community is relatively new, we're doing it without a road map. This is why I think communication is so vital -- because all we've got to help us through this is each other.

In addition, I think a small minority of gays refuse to acknowledge bis as a purely political stance. While I don't share their view, I can understand where they are coming from. There have certainly been many instances where gay organizations and institutions have been opened to bis, only to have the bis then marginalize the gays within their own communities.

I'm not sure I understand this entirely, so I would love to hear an example or two to put it into context.

And, as I said on the other thread, there is a great deal of distrust towards bis among gays because so many gays feel they have been burned by entering relationships with people who then decided that they has just been "going through a phase".

I can't throw stones here. To be perfectly honest, when I was dating, the women I dated seriously were also bisexual. I didn't feel comfortable getting involved seriously with a lesbian, because of a fear that she'd eventually leave me for another lesbian, or that my sexuality would be marginalized. Bisexual women understood, and I was more comfortable with them.

That wasn't fair by any stretch, but I can understand where the feeling comes from. Having grown up a bit since then, if I ended up single again, I'd be more open minded. The difference is that, while I might not've wanted to date a lesbian, I wasn't trying to tell her she didn't exist.

I'm glad we are discussing this, it's certainly an issue on which open discussion can have a very profound positive effect.

So am I. The only way to get over these misunderstandings is to face them and work them out.

And at the risk of incriminating my own sexuality, it does have to be acknowledged that there are self-identified bisexuals who do fuck around and then duck into the safety net of straight acceptance. There are self-identified bisexuals who do feel they need both men and women in their lives to satisfy them. There are bi-curious people who explore their sexuality, then decide they're straight after all, and hearts get broken in the process. The concerns gays and lesbians have aren't invalid, nor should they be pushed aside.

It's just that we're not all like that. And let's be fair. It's not as though there aren't straight and gay horndogs out there humping anything that catches their eye. It's just that, for some reason, if it's a bisexual doing it with both genders, it's somehow extra-bad. Except it isn't, really. We're people too. We love, sometimes just one person at a time, even! And we care, and we commit -- each in our own way.

One thing I find interesting is the idea that your sexuality is defined by who you're in a relationship with at any given moment. If that applies to everyone, then what's a straight or gay person when he or she is single?

 

[MzChrista]

I think straight privilege is a myth that needs to be dispelled about bisexuality. You hit it on the head -- sure, we can pass. If we want to live a lie. Maybe some people are comfortable doing that. I personally don't believe in forced outings of anyone. If you want to keep your sexuaity private, that's a personal choice, and one I'm going to respect.

But saying that, because a bisexual can choose a partner of the opposite sex, they can just slide right into straight society and go unnoticed and unjudged isn't accurate. I mean if you put it that way, anyone can, but it involves secrecy, lies, and denial.

This whole Marriage Protection Week thing really pissed me off. I'm married. My husband and I are both furious about it, and so are straight couples we're friends with. Yeah, people are going to assume I'm straight if they see me walking down the street hand in hand with my husband, and I'm not going to take the time to correct every single person I see, because I don't have that kind of time and I really don't care what people I don't know think.

But at the same time, the idea that marriage needs 'protected' is an insult, particularly given that I'm not straight. What people might perceive at straight privilege I see as a vile insult. It's like accepting Nazi gold. I don't want this 'privilege' at the cost of my community. I don't want my situation, fortunate as it may be, held up as a shining example of what my own community should be denied. It's a slap in the face. There's straight privilege for you.

We're dealing with a lot of perceptions that exist outside our own. If you're not bisexual, than thinking like a bisexual isn't going to come easily. Just like I can't really imagine anyone being attracted to exclusively one gender -- that just doesn't seem natural to me. But you have to take it on faith, and let people define themselves. Talking about it, coming out and speaking up, has made a lot of progress in the fight for gay rights. Maybe doing the same will help offset biphobia.

Yeah, there probably are people who are comfortable passing, but I'm not one of them.

I agree with almost everything you said inthis thread, but I have to disagree about straight privilege. Bis maybe dont automatically get straight privilege but they CAN if they want and we cant. Like you said, a bi person cant really thin gay or a gay person think bi. So maybe as a bi person it seems like its not a big deal but as a gay person the fact that you can say OK Ill get all the advantages of passing as straight now IS kind of a stumbling block.

I take this issue a little bit personally, being someone whos been left holding the bag when somebody I thought loved me decided oh she realized she really needed to be with a man. I have lots of bi friends and dont hold a grudge against bis, but I made up my mind that if I was going to get serious with anyone again, they had to be sure they were lesbian.
I know some people might think that makes me close minded but if they do, oh well.

 

[Queersetti]

I'm not sure I understand this entirely, so I would love to hear an example or two to put it into context.

I'd be glad to give an example.

A coffeehouse I used to frequent was exclusively gay space for a long time. In order to increase business, they made an effort to attract bis, putting ads in the local alternative paper emphasizng that they appealled to the whole queer community and that sort of thing.

So, people identifying as bis started coming, mostly bi women. It was fine for a while, but bi women attract straight men. Before long, there were as many straight men as gay men patronizing the place. There started to be a lot of friction between the straight men and the gay men, who made them uncomfortable, and the lesbians, who they saw as competition. There were a few incidents where straight men got grabby with lesbians, and the lesbian clientele deserted en masse. The gay men left soon after.

What had been a comfortable place for gays and lesbians became a hostile environment after bis were welcomed in. That wasn't the fault of the bis, there was no intent to disrupt the place, but nonetheless, their presence created a shift that made the change happen.

That dynamic has been repeated any number of times, and it's understandable how it can lead to bitter feelings.

 

[MzChrista]

I'd be glad to give an example.

A coffeehouse I used to frequent was exclusively gay space for a long time. In order to increase business, they made an effort to attract bis, putting ads in the local alternative paper emphasizng that they appealled to the whole queer community and that sort of thing.

So, people identifying as bis started coming, mostly bi women. It was fine for a while, but bi women attract straight men. Before long, there were as many straight men as gay men patronizing the place. There started to be a lot of friction between the straight men and the gay men, who made them uncomfortable, and the lesbians, who they saw as competition. There were a few incidents where straight men got grabby with lesbians, and the lesbian clientele deserted en masse. The gay men left soon after.

What had been a comfortable place for gays and lesbians became a hostile environment after bis were welcomed in. That wasn't the fault of the bis, there was no intent to disrupt the place, but nonetheless, their presence created a shift that made the change happen.

That dynamic has been repeated any number of times, and it's understandable how it can lead to bitter feelings.

Same thing happens with BDSM clubs. Gays and lesbians start them and then they decide to be pan to get more members. Sooner or later the straights outnumber the gays and decide they dont want to see gay men playing together and all the gays leave.
Ive seen it happen in about 4 different clubs.

 

[naudiz]

I agree with almost everything you said inthis thread, but I have to disagree about straight privilege. Bis maybe dont automatically get straight privilege but they CAN if they want and we cant. Like you said, a bi person cant really thin gay or a gay person think bi. So maybe as a bi person it seems like its not a big deal but as a gay person the fact that you can say OK Ill get all the advantages of passing as straight now IS kind of a stumbling block.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by pass? Can I walk down the street with my husband and no one gives us a second glance? Sure. That I understand. But can I act straight, hang out with straight people? Support straight causes, and just switch off the part of me that's bisexual? Yeah -- it's called being in the closet, and I couldn't do it without causing a lot of personal distress.

I guess that, when you're living the life, the way it looks from the outside is pretty baffling. I try not to take for granted that I can be married and not raise eyebrows. In fact, the very idea makes me indignant, because I won't really feel comfortable in my own union until those same rights extend to everyone. But that's a personal philosophy, and I understand not everyone shares it.

But the advantages of passing as straight come with a price tag I don't think non-bis realize. I'm not looking to be political every time I step outside with my sweetie. I'm not trying to pass. I just want to spend time with the love of my life -- I'm sure that's something anyone in the gay community can understand. The price of passing is that assumptions get made, roles get cast, and and you end up isolated from both the gay and straight community. Sometimes I feel like a rotten potato being passed back and forth, that no one wants to deal with. People keep telling me all the time what I am, and how I love, and what I want -- too few actually bother to ask.

That privilege doesn't come cheap, is all I'm saying.

I take this issue a little bit personally, being someone whos been left holding the bag when somebody I thought loved me decided oh she realized she really needed to be with a man. I have lots of bi friends and dont hold a grudge against bis, but I made up my mind that if I was going to get serious with anyone again, they had to be sure they were lesbian.
I know some people might think that makes me close minded but if they do, oh well.

I wouldn't call it close-minded. I've already pretty much admitted that, as far as dating women goes, I feel more comfortable with bisexual women than lesbians. I have friends who are lesbians, and I absolutely have nothing at all against lesbianism. I'm sure that, if the circumstances were right and the right woman came along, whether or not she's a lesbian or bi wouldn't matter. But my gut tells me 'stick with bi women, lesbians won't understand.'

It's about comfort and personal choice. The community is about more than who you intend to hook up with, and I don't see anything wrong with having preferences -- isn't that what sexual identity is about?

Where I get concerned is when people take the attitude that, since a bisexual broke their heart before, all bisexuals must be told to pick a side and/or fuck off. That's rare and extreme, but it does happen, and when it does, I say don't blame me for what someone else did.

---

Queersetti! I understand now. And yeah, that really sucks. I mean, there's nothing else to say to it. I've never been in a situation like that, but I would think that, as a member of the community, it'd be my responsibility to keep that place safe for the community. By which I mean that if I was going to a coffee house or club, and straight guys started moving in and making waves, I'd be the first to tell them to go pick up elsewhere and leave us be.

Gah. Yeah, that pisses me off just thinking about it.

 

[Queersetti]

Queersetti! I understand now. And yeah, that really sucks. I mean, there's nothing else to say to it. I've never been in a situation like that, but I would think that, as a member of the community, it'd be my responsibility to keep that place safe for the community. By which I mean that if I was going to a coffee house or club, and straight guys started moving in and making waves, I'd be the first to tell them to go pick up elsewhere and leave us be.

Gah. Yeah, that pisses me off just thinking about it.

The problem is, you can't tell bi women they are welcome (or men, but I'm sticking to the previous example) and then tell them that they can only come with other women. Bi women will come with their straight boy friends. The boyfriends will tell their buddies to meet them there. And the process has begun. I'm not saying that no pansexual venues can succeed, but this in an obstacle they have to struggle with in order to stay viable for all aspects of the community.

 

[Ms_Lilith]

I don't think I have anything to add (and if I do, I haven't put it into coherent thoughts and sentences yet), but I wanted to thank Naudiz for starting this thread, and everyone else for participating in it.. it's been really thought-provoking for me, as well as eye-opening. Queersetti and Mz Chrizta, thank you for your comments as well... it's good to hear from you, as I had not thought of the issue from your perspectives. Thank you.

 

[MzChrista]

I guess I don't understand what you mean by pass? Can I walk down the street with my husband and no one gives us a second glance? Sure. That I understand. But can I act straight, hang out with straight people? Support straight causes, and just switch off the part of me that's bisexual? Yeah -- it's called being in the closet, and I couldn't do it without causing a lot of personal distress.

I guess that, when you're living the life, the way it looks from the outside is pretty baffling. I try not to take for granted that I can be married and not raise eyebrows. In fact, the very idea makes me indignant, because I won't really feel comfortable in my own union until those same rights extend to everyone. But that's a personal philosophy, and I understand not everyone shares it.

But the advantages of passing as straight come with a price tag I don't think non-bis realize. I'm not looking to be political every time I step outside with my sweetie. I'm not trying to pass. I just want to spend time with the love of my life -- I'm sure that's something anyone in the gay community can understand. The price of passing is that assumptions get made, roles get cast, and and you end up isolated from both the gay and straight community. Sometimes I feel like a rotten potato being passed back and forth, that no one wants to deal with. People keep telling me all the time what I am, and how I love, and what I want -- too few actually bother to ask.

That privilege doesn't come cheap, is all I'm saying.



I wouldn't call it close-minded. I've already pretty much admitted that, as far as dating women goes, I feel more comfortable with bisexual women than lesbians. I have friends who are lesbians, and I absolutely have nothing at all against lesbianism. I'm sure that, if the circumstances were right and the right woman came along, whether or not she's a lesbian or bi wouldn't matter. But my gut tells me 'stick with bi women, lesbians won't understand.'

It's about comfort and personal choice. The community is about more than who you intend to hook up with, and I don't see anything wrong with having preferences -- isn't that what sexual identity is about?

Where I get concerned is when people take the attitude that, since a bisexual broke their heart before, all bisexuals must be told to pick a side and/or fuck off. That's rare and extreme, but it does happen, and when it does, I say don't blame me for what someone else did.

---

Queersetti! I understand now. And yeah, that really sucks. I mean, there's nothing else to say to it. I've never been in a situation like that, but I would think that, as a member of the community, it'd be my responsibility to keep that place safe for the community. By which I mean that if I was going to a coffee house or club, and straight guys started moving in and making waves, I'd be the first to tell them to go pick up elsewhere and leave us be.

Gah. Yeah, that pisses me off just thinking about it.

See now you are saying that you cant pass because you personally couldnt do it and be honest with who you are. I respect that totally. But its not the point. Society says that you CAN go anyplace you want holding hands with a person you love, and it says I CANT. Theres no way around that. Its a privilege you get that I dont. If you dont feel right using the privilege thats your personal choice. I understand that it is not easy being bi, please dont get me wrong.

 

[Queersetti]

I don't think I have anything to add (and if I do, I haven't put it into coherent thoughts and sentences yet), but I wanted to thank Naudiz for starting this thread, and everyone else for participating in it.. it's been really thought-provoking for me, as well as eye-opening. Queersetti and Mz Chrizta, thank you for your comments as well... it's good to hear from you, as I had not thought of the issue from your perspectives. Thank you.

Thank you.

I really do believe this is one of the most important discussions we can have here. I am glad you are finding it helpful. I hope that eventually, we will get to read your thoughts.

 

[MzChrista]

Thank you.

I really do believe this is one of the most important discussions we can have here. I am glad you are finding it helpful. I hope that eventually, we will get to read your thoughts.

Im with you there.
I dont want to come off anti-bi. Im totally cool with bis. But I wanted to represent for the lesbian side.

 

[naudiz]

See now you are saying that you cant pass because you personally couldnt do it and be honest with who you are. I respect that totally. But its not the point. Society says that you CAN go anyplace you want holding hands with a person you love, and it says I CANT. Theres no way around that. Its a privilege you get that I dont. If you dont feel right using the privilege thats your personal choice. I understand that it is not easy being bi, please dont get me wrong.

Ah! That I get.

It's a tough situation, because you're right. I can do that and you can't. That's the reality of the situation, though it's one I hope one day won't be the case. But in the meantime, what do you do?

I guess that's where it comes down to community, and what it means to those in it, and what they plan to do about it. That has a lot to do with the individual, and the choices an individual makes. What I mean is that yeah -- I can pass, and you can't. So now what? What are we going do to about this? Well, I can't speak for every bisexual woman out there, but I can speak for myself, and I choose not to let it slide. That I can and you can't is never going to be okay with me. That, I think, has more to do with personality than orientation, because a number of my straight friends feel the same way.

It saddens me to see bisexuals pushed out of the community, because while I'm beginning to understand the resentment, I think the blame is often misplaced. Instead of sexual identity being respected and nurtured, it's shamed and pushed away, and the cycle of homo/bi/hetero-phobia continues. The underlying message becomes 'you are not like me, therefore you're wrong' -- and isn't that exactly the kind of thinking we're trying to dispel?

Which is why it's good to talk about it. I don't think bisexuals, including myself, entirely understand where the biphobia comes from -- and hearing about it isn't always easy because it invites a lot of defensiveness, when what we need, no matter where we stand, is some understanding. A lot of what we're talking about is a real eye-opener, and I frankly feel a lot better about the community as a result of it.

Anyway, I really appreciate this discussion so far. I'm learning a lot. Thank you.

 

[oh21]

Thank you to everyone who has responded on this thread. I have certainly learned a lot from reading this and I think I have more of an appreciation of why sometimes it seems as if the gay community is not so receptive of bisexuals. I had particularly never thought of situations such as Q’s coffee house example and I really think it’s a shame that that happened.

I personally look forward to a time when it doesn’t matter if a couple (or a threesome of foursome in more open relationships) is gay/straight/bi but that everyone can just appreciate love when they see it and be happy for them as a member of the global community as a whole.

Oh21, the eternal optimistic.

 

[naudiz]

I look forward to that day too, o21. My own personal way of trying to bring it about is that I plan to be a pain in the ass about it until I get my way. Damn it.

Now you're all going to love and respect each other or else!

I can't imagine why anyone might object to me.

 

[Rhys]

I look forward to that day too, o21. My own personal way of trying to bring it about is that I plan to be a pain in the ass about it until I get my way. Damn it.

Now you're all going to love and respect each other or else!

I can't imagine why anyone might object to me.

All Hail Naudiz! The Dread Mistress Has Spoken!

 

[Guest]

After reading this thread, and 'bi and part of the community', I must say thank you to all of those who have posted thus far. I have had quite a few eye openers and realizations just by reading. I would post these thoughts but they have yet to form into complete sentences....but once they do...I will post more.

 

[Netzach]

I have to say that some of the people who have pissed me off most in the whole 'bisexuality' debate (for lack of a better word) are the people who are bi and say things like "Well any man/woman who wants to be with me/be married to me/whatever has to understand that I'm not going to be able to be faithful just to them because I'm bisexual. I need to have sex with both men and women." That just irritates the crap out of me. Aren't we supposed to love someone and want to be in a relationship or marriage with them because of the person they are, and not because of the shape of their genitals? Why persist in reinforcing this stereotype that we bi's are just indecisive and selfish?

That was my rant. It's been buggin me a while.

I'm not indecisive and selfish. I'm poly. I couldn't remain sexually exclusive with a single anything for the rest of my life. I even update my vibrators when I'm bored. I also choose to be open about this with everyone I'm involved with so they know what they are getting into. I am also currently *emotionally* and *romantically* committed to one person. That's much more important to me than what adventures my cunt goes on, or his dick, as long as we're reasonably safe and smart about it.