Bill Moyers disses Dems as 'spineless'

[JackLuis]

Bill Moyers tells it like it is and shows the hypocrisy of the Beltway.

"I think Rahm Emanuel, who is a clever politician, understands that the money for Obama's reelection would come primarily from the health industry, the drug industry and Wall Street, and so he is a corporate Democrat who is destined, determined that there would be something in this legislation — if we get it — that will turn off those powerful interests."

and

"There's a fear that Barack Obama will become the Grover Cleveland of this era," said Moyers. Grover Cleveland was a good man, but he became a conservative Democratic president because he didn't fight the interests. ... I would much rather see Barack Obama be Theodore Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt loved to fight. He came into office and railed against the malefactors of great wealth, and he was glad to take them on. ...

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[xssve]

It's a sorry state of affairs.

 

[Boota]

I saw that interview last night on Real Time with Bill Maher, and Moyers is absolutely right. I'd much rather see Obama lose the health care battle fighting tooth and nail with no compromises than to win with a watered down, and virtually worthless, version of it.

 

[TE999]

Money talks, bullshit walks.

 

[DeeZire]

Hopefully, the Bill Moyers piece, and others like it, will be the catalyst for resolve in the Dem camp. We have a spineless Blue Dog Dem in congress, Gabrielle Giffords, who was waffling on the public option until about two weeks ago, when she came out in favor of it.

I'll be at her town hall meeting tonight in support of reform, as will hundreds of others. Pima County is more liberal than the rest of Arizona, so I doubt that we'll be having a Neanderthal shout-fest, although I'm sure we'll have to deal with a few clueless yahoos. If I do get pummeled by a band of angry Birthers, and it gets on the news, I'll post a link.

At Gifford's town hall meeting in Sierra Vista a couple of weeks ago, a constituent dropped a gun on the floor, so I'm bringing my earplugs. (Sierra Vista is an army town, not far from Tombstone. Lots of Minute Men and such down there.)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The Democrats hamartic flaw is they sit on their asses waiting for others to do the work and pay the freight for their great ideas. This is where they are: Sitting in the wagon wondering who in fuck is gonna pull them. So next year they go back to being losers cuz they'll always be a disorganized cabel of freeloaders.

 

[amicus]

It is a curious situation, is it not?

National Health care, socialized medicine, government run healthcare, has been the 'holy grail' of the left since the 60's and this slice of time, with a democrat majority in Congress, a leftist in the White House, zealots know this is their one and only chance to impose a socialist system to control health care they will ever have.

If they lose this chance, this new President is history, the 2010 elections will dissolve the majority and he will serve only one term.

I am hesitant to state that the openly left direction of this new government on all fronts, nationalizing the banks, the auto companies, the cap and trade farce and the socialized medicine, has finally awakened that 'sleeping giant' that is the American electorate.

I remain hopeful, but then, I have been disappointed before.

We shall see...maybe Deezire will switch sides and join the Tea Party Express, heading for Washington, D.c. on 9/12...

Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Leave it to the Democrats to try and save the world when the world is fresh out of money. These clowns never save anyone with their own funds. Their MO is to take your money and give it back minus a tidy service charge. But no one has any money except for elite Democrats. Plus what I said above: the world is in no mood to pull the Democrats wagon to the next gig.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I wouldn't get too hopeful. Pelosi's record is one of being more concerned with self-aggrandizement and the abuse of those who dare to to disobey the Queen. I think it's less spinelessness than a political version of "nothing personal, just business."

 

[DeeZire]

The Democrats hamartic flaw is they sit on their asses waiting for others to do the work and pay the freight for their great ideas. This is where they are: Sitting in the wagon wondering who in fuck is gonna pull them. So next year they go back to being losers cuz they'll always be a disorganized cabel of freeloaders.

I don't know, JBJ... Looking at it from another angle, I see a basic personality difference between Ds and Rs. While a typical R might be in the my-way-or-the-highway camp, a typical D might be in the can't-we-all-just-get-along? camp. This could put the Ds at a disadvantage when it comes to forcing the issue, while forcing the issue appears to be second nature to the Rs. Gabrielle Giffords is an example of the let's-get-along D - good intentions corrupted by a political system that places more value on getting reelected than on doing the right thing.

On the freeloader aspect, there is also another viewpoint. Consider all the low wage workers who are trying to get by on an unlivable wage. In affect, the working poor are subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich, because without the poor doing the shit jobs, the rich would have no economy to benefit from. In this context, the rich are the freeloaders.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DEE ZIRE

I have a newsflash for the poor; KEEP YOUR LEGS TOGETHER AND STAY IN SCHOOL.

If you get an education and better jobs, there will be lots more money for the real needy.

 

[amicus]

DeeZire....even the true believer's who drink the red koolaide daily, will gag at your regurgitation of the old Marxist/Leninist lines:

Consider all the low wage workers who are trying to get by on an unlivable wage. In affect, the working poor are subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich, because without the poor doing the shit jobs, the rich would have no economy to benefit from.

Your verbiage is so, so 30's in nature, perhaps the new left just doesn't recognize the rhetoric?

The poor create nothing until the one who saves and invests builds a factory for them to work in.

At least fat capitalists earn their money the old fashioned way...they work for it, the new left produces nothing and is but a parasite on all of society, rich and poor alike.

(Amicus pats poor Deezire gently on the head and leaves a copy of Von Mises in her window seat)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MARXISM and the Great Society are wonderful so long as the Lefties have bodies conscripted to do the work, but the time comes when even the guards wont be stooges.

 

[JackLuis]

It appears that we see the true face of American Politics. The Representatives are looking for money because that's how you get elected, by drawing capitol and putting up a PR campaign.

Rahm Emanuel seems like a Dick Chaney type Chief of Staff. JFK had LBJ pushing his agenda and Lyndon wasn't soft. B.O. has Raham who is a smarmy as they come and would sell his sister for a contribution.

Ford had Cheney as CoS and see what happened to Gerald.

I believe that Obama has sold out to the Corporatests and we will all be swimming in shit in a year.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

It appears that we see the true face of American Politics. The Representatives are looking for money because that's how you get elected, by drawing capitol and putting up a PR campaign.

Rahm Emanuel seems like a Dick Chaney type Chief of Staff. JFK had LBJ pushing his agenda and Lyndon wasn't soft. B.O. has Raham who is a smarmy as they come and would sell his sister for a contribution.

Ford had Cheney as CoS and see what happened to Gerald.

I believe that Obama has sold out to the Corporatests and we will all be swimming in shit in a year.

Obama sold out to the Banks, Auto Industry and Corporate America long before he was elected, Jack.

 

[DeeZire]

Obama sold out to the Banks, Auto Industry and Corporate America long before he was elected, Jack.

While I agree that Obama's pragmatism makes him look like a sellout, I think the picture is many-faceted - something a casual glance may not reveal. If Obama hadn't bailed out the banks, what would a total financial meltdown look like? Who would still have a job? Who would still have a bank account with actual money in it? Would stores have food in them? (With no credit line, it's difficult to pay for goods, even at the wholesale level.) Would a 25% unemployment rate create civil unrest? Would a scenario like this make Obama look worse than he does now? Or, more importantly, would a scenario like this be good for America?

Criticizing is easy. Solutions are hard. I would much rather see a guy struggle with solutions than walk around like the Emporer With No Clothes, assuring us that everything's hunky-dory and he's actually wearing a suit.

 

[amicus]

Handprints or TrySail would be better at this that I, but it seems to me that the Toxic Assets from Fannie and Freddie still remain the problem and I have heard that the malady is about to infect business properties as well.

The basic economy of the US is still under threat from debt and deficits, the auto industry benefitted from the 'Cash for Clunkers' for a few weeks, but did not address the main issue which is prohibitive labor costs and benefits.

I am not schooled sufficiently to predict what the outcome would have been had the many bailouts not taken place, but it appears that the solution is short term and that the basic causes have not been address, merely postponed with government largesse.

Either the entire economy is nationalized or some path back to a free market must be discovered, in either case there are more bad times ahead.

Amicus

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Ami, you are missing part of the economic equation. How does an industrialized nation get out of a ressession? They produce themselves out of it.
And that's the problem. What do we really produce in the country? Cars? Machine Tools? Big price tag industrial equipment? Or are those produced by American Companies in Canada and Mexico or China or South East Asia?

Even if we still have the production capacity in the US and could produce large quanities of product where would we sell them? Isn't every country in Europe having the same problem? Certainly we could sell them for big bucks to Arab countries such as Lybia and Iran, but there are major drawbacks to that.

So...?

 

[amicus]

Alvin & Heidi Toffler published a book describing the 'waves' of economic change from agricultural to industrial to a 'service' economy. We are in uncharted waters, learning what this next wave entails and how it will influence the way society works.

If memory serves, at the turn of the 20th century it took four out of ten Americans to supply food for the nation; now it is about 1.6 in every hundred who work in agriculture.

The same approximate numbers apply to manufacturing and industry, the second economic wave that has come and gone. The computer age changed everything and it has only just begun.

It is predicted that in the future, most Americans will work from home, on the internet. The blue collar working man will resemble what you see on automobile productions lines where computers do most of the work and people exercise a small skill to accomplish the small tasks more efficiently than a computer driven system.

I watched a program about Rotterdam and the Container ship industry, the amount of mechanization is absolutely amazing, there is seldom a human in evidence as machines and computers do all the work. It is the same in modern factories that make most of the goods we consume, automatic machinery does all the work, even the quality inspection at the end of the line.

Remote surgical instruments allow physicians to work from a great distance and perform several times the procedures as now accomplished. School buildings warehousing thousands of students will soon be a thing of the past as education is provided over the internet with recorded lessons allowing one teacher to reach thousands or tens of thousands of students in their own homes.

The transition from pastoral to agricultural was violent, as was the move from ag to industrial and so too will it be as Labor Unions and traditional, conventional methods of the industrial age will be clung to tenaciously.

Change is seldom easy and always painful. I often use the transition from horses to cars as an example, imagine an entire industry obsolete in a matter of a few years.

The change is occuring whether we like it or not or participate or not. If we do not keep up, like the Amish, we will just be left behind.

regards...

amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

I don't know, JBJ... Looking at it from another angle, I see a basic personality difference between Ds and Rs. While a typical R might be in the my-way-or-the-highway camp, a typical D might be in the can't-we-all-just-get-along? camp. This could put the Ds at a disadvantage when it comes to forcing the issue, while forcing the issue appears to be second nature to the Rs. Gabrielle Giffords is an example of the let's-get-along D - good intentions corrupted by a political system that places more value on getting reelected than on doing the right thing.

On the freeloader aspect, there is also another viewpoint. Consider all the low wage workers who are trying to get by on an unlivable wage. In affect, the working poor are subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich, because without the poor doing the shit jobs, the rich would have no economy to benefit from. In this context, the rich are the freeloaders.

I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but representatives are supposed to represent. The constituents of G. Giffords elected her to represent them, and that means voting for things they want and against things they oppose.

If her constituents are opposed to this mysterious health measure and she votes for it anyhow, it will be to aid her reelection, because the DNC might not come up with campaign funds if she crosses them.

As you said, the poor do the shit jobs, but those are better than nothing. If the rich didn't build the factories, etc. the poor wouldn't even have that. And, keep in mind, almost any young poor person has the potential to become one of the rich, if he or she is willing to work hard.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

While I agree that Obama's pragmatism makes him look like a sellout, I think the picture is many-faceted - something a casual glance may not reveal. If Obama hadn't bailed out the banks, what would a total financial meltdown look like? Who would still have a job? Who would still have a bank account with actual money in it? Would stores have food in them? (With no credit line, it's difficult to pay for goods, even at the wholesale level.) Would a 25% unemployment rate create civil unrest? Would a scenario like this make Obama look worse than he does now? Or, more importantly, would a scenario like this be good for America?

Criticizing is easy. Solutions are hard. I would much rather see a guy struggle with solutions than walk around like the Emporer With No Clothes, assuring us that everything's hunky-dory and he's actually wearing a suit.

Youve described how things really are right now. The real unemployment rate is 16% and millions are now permanently outside the system becuz they cant get credit, there credit problems now disqualify them for jobs, they arent paying taxes, theyre losing their homes and cars, and the whole economic system is strangling.

When Hitler came to power the very first thing he did was put everyone to work. Employed people create demand for goods and services. Then he tossed the Limeys, Frogs, and Uncle Sam out. They were taking everything that wasnt on fire. Germany was out of the Depression by 1935 and had full employment. Saint Franklin, on the other-hand, murdered 6 million pigs and dumped millions of gallons of milk down the drain, and kids went to bed hungry till World War 2.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Turn on the tv sometime. Most Americans now sit on their asses at meetings or play on the internet at work. They suck billions and produce nuthin.

 

[Boota]

National health care for everyone will be a big part of bringing manufacturing back to the forefront in America. Labor costs, minus benefits, is a drop in the bucket for most factories. It's paying for the benefits that are driving American companies out of the country. At my last factory job I was paid very well for being a blue collar grunt and our wages without the benefits cost the company around 4% for 3/4 of the year and less in the last quarter. It was the benefits that took it up to 11 and 12%, which in the words of our company president "still isn't that bad". But for some companies with larger payrolls it can be that bad. If Americans can be paid well we can afford to pay a bit more on taxes for healthcare and no one will even really notice. National healthcare will be good for business.

 

[xssve]

While I agree that Obama's pragmatism makes him look like a sellout, I think the picture is many-faceted - something a casual glance may not reveal. If Obama hadn't bailed out the banks, what would a total financial meltdown look like? Who would still have a job? Who would still have a bank account with actual money in it? Would stores have food in them? (With no credit line, it's difficult to pay for goods, even at the wholesale level.) Would a 25% unemployment rate create civil unrest? Would a scenario like this make Obama look worse than he does now? Or, more importantly, would a scenario like this be good for America?

Criticizing is easy. Solutions are hard. I would much rather see a guy struggle with solutions than walk around like the Emporer With No Clothes, assuring us that everything's hunky-dory and he's actually wearing a suit.

Yeah, the "adults" left us with the usual ideologically inspired mess - speaking of parasites, shifting your tax burden onto your children is not exactly the definition of responsibility.

"Course if Obama take the hit, cuts spending (oil wars), raises taxes, pays down the deficit and rebuilds the crumbling infrastructure the republicans have saddled us with, he set up a conservative resurgence in the next election cycle so they can piss it away all over again.

 

[xssve]

National health care for everyone will be a big part of bringing manufacturing back to the forefront in America. Labor costs, minus benefits, is a drop in the bucket for most factories. It's paying for the benefits that are driving American companies out of the country. At my last factory job I was paid very well for being a blue collar grunt and our wages without the benefits cost the company around 4% for 3/4 of the year and less in the last quarter. It was the benefits that took it up to 11 and 12%, which in the words of our company president "still isn't that bad". But for some companies with larger payrolls it can be that bad. If Americans can be paid well we can afford to pay a bit more on taxes for healthcare and no one will even really notice. National healthcare will be good for business.

The dependency ratio is a huge factor - it's capital that can't be used to fund expansion, it tends to accumulate in the stock lottery where it's periodically siphoned off in bubbles and used to fund expansion in other countries.