Bigot

[sweetnpetite]

Bigot: Word History and Questions.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant “an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.” Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense “a superstitious hypocrite.”

Is it really bigoted to say that someone else is a bigot? Is it intollerant to be intollerant of intollerance? Or is it hypocritical to be tollerant of intollerance when you believe in tollerance?

This was inspired by two threads from yesterday about race and sexual preference. (no name calling day)

Should it be 'wrong' to accuse people of bigotry? Or should we be fearless in naming it even though we will be attacked?

What are your thoughts?

 

[cantdog]

I never gave the problem a scintilla of attention, Sweet.

It's a word I seldom use.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Op_Cit PM'd me with the following...

and gave me permission to post it, although retains the right to deny it as a forgery

Sweet,

You're getting me riled up here and I had to catch myself before replying. I'm trying not to get political here on AH (sooner or later I'll get piled on and it won't be pretty.)

Luckily for me my browser choked before the thread post went out. So here you can have it.


RE: Bigot

You've got it right there. Is it legitimate for one to be critical of another's attitude until he himself reaches perfection?

What people seem to forget is that they only person in the world you can change is yourself. It's really easy sitting around thinking about how the world would be better if everyone else changed, but nobody wants to spend that effort fixing themselves.

The funny thing about the intollerance of intollerance is that those same people seem to be the ones that think it's OK to just be whoever you think you are. Until it crosses one of their pet peeves.

Every single bad behaviour you see in someone else exists someplace within yourself. It may be smaller or larger, but it's there.

People dump on smokers and think it's OK because that's an acquired behavior, but then so is religion. There may be a natural biological need to believe in a higher power, but still everyone has a different take on it. Yet I guarrantee you there are a huge number of people in this world who could more easily change their sexual orientation than change their belief in god.

Yet it's OK to jump up and down on the religious right but not on sexual orientation?

(I don't condone either)

But wait, the religious right trys to impose its own beliefs on everyone else, no? What about the liberal left taxing me into oblivion and sending that money overseas? They'll be quick to explain the needs of the many over the needs of the few.

To an anarchist/atheist these two are the same folks. Both are members of the class of people that are not content to leave others alone. And both spend more time trying to make others change than than they do improving themselves.

And these evil people like SnP (who I think I'm falling in love with) trick me into blabbering when I should be spending more time fixing myself... I'm such and idiot.

 

[English Lady]

there is a biblical verse I love. *quickly does a search*

yeah here we go

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" Matthew3:7


Which I think is what Op was sorta saying. we shouldn't be so busy finding fault in others we should be working on our own faults and sorting them out.

I don't believe accusing someone of something does much good at all, whatever the accusation is.

 

[gauchecritic]

There's nothing wrong with tollerating intollerance, there's nothing wrong with pointing out bigotry but don't expect anyone other than the intollerant or bigoted to give you praise for it.

 

[Guest]

There's nothing wrong with tollerating intollerance, there's nothing wrong with pointing out bigotry but don't expect anyone other than the intollerant or bigoted to give you praise for it.

Yet again, I find myself agreeing with Gauche.

You really must do something about that.

 

[rgraham666]

So judging from what I've seen here:

The next time I hear about a 'fag bashing' I'm going to have to keep my mouth shut, because I can't be intolerant of intolerance?

The next time a woman doesn't get a job because 'she'll get pregnant and leave' I will simply have to let it pass?

The next time an abortion clinic goes up in flames, well, we're not allowed to prosecute the perps because intolerance has to be tolerated?

These are all things I'm intolerant of and I don't see any reason to change.

Oh and Op? Last time I looked, only half a cent of every tax dollar goes overseas as foreign aid. In the U.S anyway.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

From Scott Adams (paraphrased): "It's from a folly called optimism. A belief that people can change and that if you only tell them what is wrong with them, point out why people dislike them, they will become better people and stop doing it. In truth there is only one outcome that can come of it:"

The next cartoon depicts a man telling his boss he is quitting because he can't stand working for such a duplicitous arrogant weasel. The next panel depicts the Boss talking to Catbert saying the reason the employee left was "Personal Problems" and Catbert saying "I'm glad we take this valuable employee input".





I thought it was a very interesting observation.

 

[woodnymph_O]

Am I the only one

with such a sugar craving that all I can think about is the picture of the pie? Sorry sweet I do see your point, but damn I could eat that whole pie right now. I'm going for REESES cup and its all your fault.
Nymphy

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think an important question is whether or not an intolerance is sufficient grounds for dismissing a person, altogether. I think it likely that a great many, if not most, people have some manner of intolerance... even great proponents of tolerance.

I think of the minority rights leaders in the black community that speak out against gay marriage when I think about that. Would the entire population of the Civil Rights movement be dismissed as mere bigots and, thus, horrible human beings, given that they were found to all be against gay rights--as an example.

My father doesn't approve of interratial couples. He was born in the fifties, he lived through Mississippi's opinion for the first twenty years of his life. However, he's not a bad man at all... moral, honest, hard-working, kind, cheery, and brave. He's the greatest human being I've ever met. But, he's possessed of an intolerance.

At what point is it too much?

 

[SeaCat]

Strange how so many people here seem to agree on this. Who draws the line at which intolerance can no longer be ignored?

We all see intolerance every day, but where do we draw the line? I know I often joke about being biggoted against bigots, and that's all it is, a joke.

Sometimes you have to concede that you can't change a person. Like Joe I love and greatly admire my father. Ex-Army, was a great provider, helps out in the community, etc. etc. etc. Sounds perfect doesn't he? In many ways people think so. On the other hand he is often bigoted against several ethnic groups. I tolerate his occasional jokes and comments because I know several things about my father. I know where his feelings towards these groups come from, and while I don't agree with his views they are understandable from his viewpoint. I also know that he has in the past, and is still trying to now, to change his bigotry. And last I also know that he will do anything he can to help another person in real trouble*, to the point of risking his life. (I know this as gospel because of reading the commendations he has received, and having seen him in action.) As he puts it, "I may not like them as a group, but they are still human beings".

(* He describes the difference between real trouble and any other kind as follows. Real trouble is something beyond your controll. A housefire, someone attacking you or your family, etc. Any other kind of trouble is something you can get yourself out of. You lost your job and can't find another that pays as much or more right now? Then get something that may pay less until you do find a replacement job. Work, any kind of work is better than sitting on your ass feeling sorry for yourself and hoping others will give you something.)

Cat

 

[cloudy]

I'll admit I have an almost knee-jerk reaction to bigotry, simply because I've seen it from all sides. I've seen it directed at me, from "white" people, and from natives who thought I wasn't "brown" enough. I've heard the horrible jokes from old white men who wrongly assume that I wouldn't find anything offensive about them, and I've seen it's effects on my daughter, who has come home from school crying because she was asked "what she was" and didn't know what to answer.

I may be wrong for jumping on it with both feet, but to me, anyway, it's inexcusable to hate an entire group simply because of their skin color, or their eye color, or their sexual orientation.

No, I won't change any minds, but I may sway those that are standing on a line somewhere in the middle.

 

[rgraham666]

To me it becomes too much at that point where you deny the privileges to another group that you take for granted.

It's too much when you judge the group for actions they might take or are believed to have taken rather than those an individual has actually performed.

 

[SeaCat]

Cloudy, RG,

I agree with both of you, and I make no appologies for those who are bigoted, including my father. (He wouldn't want me to make an appology for him, he would do it himself if someone told him he had wronged them.)

Cat

p.s. He raised my brother, sister and myself to think for ourselves, and not to be bigoted as he is. Unfortunately this lesson only took with me. Unlike my father my brother and sister make no appologies for how they feel, hence my not talking to them more than once or twice a year.

 

[rgraham666]

Since it was Martin Luther King Day recently, I'll quote my favourite line of his.

"I dream of a day when my children are not judged by the colour of their skins, but by the content of their character."

 

[English Lady]

we should never ignore wrong doings and injustices but we should never condemn the person who does it on just the grounds that they've done it.

easier said than done but it's what I do believe.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Hmm, Terry Pratchett paraphrase that I just remembered.

"A real criminal mind...with one word they would steal the humanity from someone."

And

"(about crimes) Yes, but they all start with thinking about another person as less-than-a-person."

From Feet of Clay I believe, but don't quote me on it.

 

[woodnymph_O]

I'll admit I have an almost knee-jerk reaction to bigotry, simply because I've seen it from all sides. I've seen it directed at me, from "white" people, and from natives who thought I wasn't "brown" enough. I've heard the horrible jokes from old white men who wrongly assume that I wouldn't find anything offensive about them, and I've seen it's effects on my daughter, who has come home from school crying because she was asked "what she was" and didn't know what to answer.

I may be wrong for jumping on it with both feet, but to me, anyway, it's inexcusable to hate an entire group simply because of their skin color, or their eye color, or their sexual orientation.

No, I won't change any minds, but I may sway those that are standing on a line somewhere in the middle.

Sadly some people don't seem to know when they are being biggoted. I remember clearly my loving grandmother, fussing at us when we got into trouble. She always said we we're acting like a band of heathen indians. I got into trouble once when I asked her if indians told their kids to stop acting like a band of heathern white people. Ok I was 6, it was an honest question.Still got a spanking for "acting Smart".
Sorry Cloudy
Nymphy

 

[cloudy]

Sadly some people don't seem to know when they are being biggoted. I remember clearly my loving grandmother, fussing at us when we got into trouble. She always said we we're acting like a band of heathen indians. I got into trouble once when I asked her if indians told their kids to stop acting like a band of heathern white people. Ok I was 6, it was an honest question.Still got a spanking for "acting Smart".
Sorry Cloudy
Nymphy

I honestly don't lay any blame on people in the generation of your grandmother. Society as a whole was taught to believe that way.

I can, however, deplore the actions of those in this day and age who are still teaching their children that to be less than lily white is to be less.

And, I can't help but mention that I loved your answer.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Am I the only one

with such a sugar craving that all I can think about is the picture of the pie? Sorry sweet I do see your point, but damn I could eat that whole pie right now. I'm going for REESES cup and its all your fault.
Nymphy

I could run really far with this, but I'll let you use your imagination, lol.

Suffice it to say, your post has gotten me greatly aroused.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Since it was Martin Luther King Day recently, I'll quote my favourite line of his.

"I dream of a day when my children are not judged by the colour of their skins, but by the content of their character."

These days I think it has something to do with how much your tennishoes cost...

 

[English Lady]

Hmm, Terry Pratchett paraphrase that I just remembered.

"A real criminal mind...with one word they would steal the humanity from someone."

And

"(about crimes) Yes, but they all start with thinking about another person as less-than-a-person."

From Feet of Clay I believe, but don't quote me on it.

good lines those...and I do believe you're right

 

[sweetnpetite]

JOe, good to see you again (really!)

I agree with what you said, and what Rgrahm said and what cloudy said and several others.

I'd just like to add- that the behavior is intollerable, but the people are sometimes more than the sum of there worst traits. (Depending on how bad those traits are and what there relationship to them is)

I believe that we are all imperfect and there are no 'good' people and 'bad' people only people with a mix of good and bad. (sometimes one outweighs the other, but no one is all good or all evil)

***edited to ad 'cept my ex mother in law.

 

[woodnymph_O]

Re: Re: Am I the only one

I could run really far with this, but I'll let you use your imagination, lol.

Suffice it to say, your post has gotten me greatly aroused.

will you still say that after Reese's number 20?lol

Nymphy

 

[sweetnpetite]

I never gave the problem a scintilla of attention, Sweet.

It's a word I seldom use.

Did I ever tell you you're //one of// the best person/s I know?