BDSM & NONCONSENT: overlapping categories?

[vgrey]

I've realized that there is a fairly wide gray area between the BDSM category and the Nonconsent category. Now obviously there are a lot of consensual bondage stories, as well as plenty of nonconsent stories that don't involve restraints of any sort. That being said, there are a lot of stories that involve both.
My questions are:
1) Where should the line be drawn between the two categories?
2) Are there any overiding factors that should put a story clearly in one camp or another?
3) What are your ideas about guidelines for writers that are unsure about which category their stories fall into?

VG

 

[chatbug]

One BDSM opinion

I've realized that there is a fairly wide gray area between the BDSM category and the Nonconsent category. Now obviously there are a lot of consentual bondage stories, as well as plenty of nonconsent stories that don't involve restraints of any sort. That being said, there are a lot of stories that involve both.

1) Where should the line be drawn between the two categories?

If it's nonconsentual, then it's not BDSM. Easy to say; not always so easy to determine in a story or practice. The consent is usually given before the event / scene, not necessarily during it. An obvious example is a "forced" sexual encounter. If consent is given beforehand, it's BDSM. If not, it's nonconsent (and rape).

2) Are there any overiding factors that should put a story clearly in one camp or another?

Consent and some sort of power relationship, with or without physical restraints, would be BDSM. Nonconsent is nonconsent. Consent without the power relationship is a sexual relationship.

3) What are your ideas about guidelines for writers that are unsure about which category their stories fall into?

Post a question on the Author's hangout? Most of my stories are in the BDSM category, so I guess it's easy for me to make the determination. I hope that my other answers have helped make this decision clearer.

[Edited by chatbug on 02-21-2001 at 12:50 AM]

 

[WriterDom]

WRONG!

There is a wide abyss between BDSM and non-consent

 

[Hecate]

BDSM is NEVER EVER the same as non-consent!

I admit I have had a few cases of doubting where my stories should go (I for example find it hard at times to tell the difference between BDSM and fetish stories)- but it was never a choice between anything and non-consent. I think non-consent is clearly distinguishable from any other kind of story, simply by the lacking agreement of at least one person involved whereas in my opinion each form of BDSM is based on a foundation of trust and communication, and only may take place between consenting adults.

More than you wanted to know, huh? Sorry, but I am a little touchy in that respect ...

 

[Madame Pandora]

Well...I think vgray has a very good point.

Certainly in the practice of BDSM, the VAST majority of the participants are consensual. It is, to my understanding, an intimate practice largely based upon partner trust. However, in stories, many (if not most) non-consent scenarios play out with BDSM elements.

There are a lot of instances where stories walk a line between two different types, and not just in these two categories.

When that happens, I think the author has to pick what THEY feel is the intent of the story. Was the focus on the non-consent or on the BDSM? Laurel (or Manu) then reads each story and if they feel it's out of place, they put it where a reader's perspective lends its logic.

Gee Hecate, I can't imagine why you'd be touchy on the subject? Is it because EVERYTIME there is a sexual deviant in a film or television show, it's also some wahoo in a leather mask with his own dungeon? BDSM has been vilified in most mediums, so there are blurry perspectives for those who don't practice. Heck, until I made friends with a few people who practice, I thought they were all loop-the-loop, too

MP

 

[KillerMuffin]

This is an easy one, had it explained to me in simple terms once myself.

BDSM is actually like three different things, bondage, domination/submission, and sadomasochism. Don't think of Lucy Liu in Payback when you think of domination/submission, that's sadomasochism. Some dom/subs are really very loving couples that you'd never know.

Anyway. EVERYTHING in BDSM is totally consentual. It may not seem like it, but it is. A good BDSM relationship has a watch code, like blue. They can scream stop all they want, but it'll be ignore. They say blue once and the one in charge immediately ceases and desists all activity. The one submitting has all the control.

In non-consent the party of the first part is getting it from the party of the second part whether they want it or not, and it's usually not. Non-consent gets blurry because it's an exploration of a rape-fantasy. Which is literally a fantasy of being raped. Consent should be neither implied nor given, even if the party of the first part gets off on it. In NC, there is nothing the party of the first part can do to stop it. The rapist has all the control. Totally opposite of BDSM. Karoochio?

 

[WriterDom]

Hell yes, MP, we are touchy about our lifestyle being confused with anything that's nonconsent. We are a community that lives by certain rules and tries to educate others in safe ways to practice. The creed of the lifestyle is "Safe, Sane, and Consensual." Anything that is not safe, sane, or consensual is not BDSM, but rape or abuse.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Ummmmm...Dom...

I was AGREEING with you.

BDSM has been vilified in most mediums, so there are blurry perspectives for those who don't practice.

MP

 

[Hecate]

*chukles* looks like I am not the only one here being touchy ... seriously, MP, you got me pinned down quite well - I am just sooooooooo tired of keeping to explain that no, I don't don my leathers and spikes at night and go out hunting little innocent boys and girls whom I tie up and torture for my pleasures before they even are aware of what is happening - or whom I force to do "unspeakable things" in a dark moist dungeon to get my kicks...

As was said - there are some "borderline" stories which are hard to determin to which categorie they belong. As I said , I sometimes am having a tough match between "fetish" and "bdsm" - specially when there is spanking or such involved, or sometimes I am not sure if it is "erotic coupling" or "romance"... I just didn't see the difficulty in distinguishing the non-consent stories from all others but then again... that's just me ...

*winks* so - if there are any other prejudices I can prove to be wrong about the BDSM matter ... *hides whip and cuffs behind back and quickly shoves high stiletto heeled boots under the torture table.. uhrrmmm I mean bed...*

 

[vgrey]

Thanks. This helps.

Thanks for all of the helpful responses everyone.
I knew that when I asked this question that it might be a bit of a raw nerve for some. (with good reason!)
The reason that I asked the second question was because I tend to agree with chatbug that consent should be an overiding factor in selecting a category.
I have noticed that this does not hold true for the BDSM stories category however. I see quite a few stories in the BDSM category that include nonconsensual situations, including my own.
When the first two chapters of my story were posted, they were placed in the BDSM category. That seemed understandable to me at the time since I was new to the site and my story had situations that could have been easily mistaken for BDSM if someone failed to notice that it was not consensual (It doesn't become obvious at first, but soon it is readily appparent)
I just let it go at that point because I didn't know if anyone was even going to read my stories. Well, quite a few people did read the story and liked it. After a few months on the site, not one person has written to me to complain about the story belonging in another category, but it still bothers me.
Is there any way to move the story to another category?
Or am I just worrying too much?
What is the Board's opinion?
VG

 

[KillerMuffin]

The overlapping can be confusing, particularly when the non-consents are miscategorized. I read one recently in BDSM that was non-consent. It's been recategorized into the novels/novellas, so the issue is moot. The lady had been in a car accident and the man had saved her from the burning wreckage. The man then told her that he now owned her and turned her into his painslut/slave and she did not want this to happen. In the end it all worked out happily every nippleclamps after.

Still, the story isn't BDSM, it's non-consent. She did not give her consent to it. It was classified wrong, and therefore gives the wrong impression of the lifestyle. Hecate would never enslave someone against their will.

Oh, the story is Vanished by Suzie Samuels.

As for your question, VG, don't worry about it. If it becomes an issue later, you can always request it be moved.

 

[Laurel]

This is a great thread for me to read. I'm really interested in finding out all of your opinions on this issue. I've had email discussions with quite a few authors about this as well.

As a rule, if the story is submitted to the BDSM category (like Vanished was), I respect the author's judgement and leave it there. Before we had the new scripts, there was no "category" option when submitting, so there was more room for confusion. In my conversations with specific authors over specific stories, determining whether one of the characters is actually not consenting or pretending to not consent occasionally causes me some confusion. Only the author, herself or himself, can get inside of the character's heads, so ultimately the distinction of consent/non-consent should be made by said author.

If anyone disagrees with the categorization of one of their stories, please contact me and I'll be happy to get it sorted out. It shouldn't be too much of an issue with recent submissions, but I have no doubt that I made at least one or two mistakes (haha) in the two+ years before we added the new submission system.

Again, I thank you for continuing to educate me.

One last thing...just to send Hecate off the edge. Think about this: the movie "8mm".

 

[KillerMuffin]

8MM

I'd dig up that old fuck's body just to break his fucking bones and spit on him. Then grind him up for worm meal. Grrrrrrr.

That's not BDSM either. Or non-consent. That's just sick.

I hate it when people die before appropriate retribution can be wreaked on them.

 

[bluntforcemama]

There is indeed a gray area... to the point of consent. In this case, consensual sex may be a fine line between BDSM and rape, but it's not invisible to those who look deeply enough, I belive, or to those who choose to look at it the way they want to see it.

 

[SpectreT]

Grey?

As I've said in another post, my RL experience is rather limited (5 "sessions" with a now ex-girlfriend, and motly "pet tricks in bondage" as she described our games) but the point about the author's opintion that Laurel made is a good one; only the writer knows the original intent of a story, and some of the BDSM ones are a little.... too close to the edge for my tastes. I especially detest the blackmail theme; blackmail narrows the focus of choice down to submission to anothers will without ones heart and soul in it, murder, or suicide. And, like me, most of my caracters would try murder first, then suicide. *Actual* slavery to another is unthinkable, and unacceptable to me *personally*. And, in case anyone was wondering, we switched roles.

 

[cymbidia]

BDSM is actually like three different things, bondage, domination/submission, and sadomasochism.

More commonly, the three divisions are referred to as bondage & discipline, sadism & masochism, and domination & submission. Those who are of this lifestyle are a Dominant (Top, Master, Mistress), a submissive (bottom, slave) or a switch (sometimes Dominant, sometimes submissive). None of us are whole without our complement.


Anyway. EVERYTHING in BDSM is totally consentual. It may not seem like it, but it is. A good BDSM relationship has a watch code, like blue. They can scream stop all they want, but it'll be ignore. They say blue once and the one in charge immediately ceases and desists all activity. The one submitting has all the control.

SOME good BDSM relationships have these "code words". Most new BDSM relationships have them, yes, and most casual-sex, casual-scene, play-party pairings have them, yes. They exist to protect the submissive against what s/he cannot take. However, there are many, many people in established BDSM relationships that do not have stop words at all. For us, the trust we have in our partner is all we need, all we want.

It would never, ever be a good idea for someone new to the lifestyle to play without a stop word. It would be dangerous for someone to play without a stop word who doesn't completely trust her/his partner's understanding of whatever limits are in place. However, to say that "all good BDSM relationships" have stop words is incorrect and does a vast disservice to those of us who live, happily and safely, within a different sort of BDSM situation.


In non-consent the party of the first part is getting it from the party of the second part whether they want it or not, and it's usually not.

Often, within the borders of a good BDSM relationship, limits are pushed. That means lines of "what i can handle" are pushed or bent or crossed, sometimes delicately and sometimes in a bluntly major manner.

Is that non-consent? By your definition, it may well be.

To me, however, the division is clear. Within the bounds of a BDSM relationship, when limits have been discussed and are being pushed for the benefit of each partner, there cannot be a non-consensual situation.

Within the bounds of the BDSM world, sometimes abuse or non-consensual play does, unfortunately, occur. If something happens during scene that hasn't been discussed and agreed-upon in advance and if that something crosses into someone's list of 'hard limits' and if the people involved are not in a relationship which gives the Dominant the right to push whatever limits s/he wishes to push whenever s/he chooses to push them (TPE = Total Power Exchange), then it might well be a matter of non-consensual sex. At that time, or before, the sub should use her stop word.

All this to say that you gotta get to know who you're playing with. Trust comes first. Talk for a week or a month before you play. Go on 'nilla dates and get to know each other. Fill out one of the ubiquitous "Needs/Wants Forms" that are readily available so you'll know what your partner likes and your partner will know what you like (don't like, fantasize about, HATE, are scared of, etc).

I hate it when the intensity and gut-level "realness" of BDSM life is confused with the whole area of non-consensual sex. Yes, rapists use some elements that are common to BDSM lifestyle sexual practices (bondage and gagging practices, mostly) but willing, joyful submission to a loving, capable Dominant, and not only in the bedroom, is never present in non-consensual situations. It's always a part of good BDSM relationships.

I apologize most sincerely for meandering.
~stepping off my soapbox~
cym

 

[KillerMuffin]

Forget it. I'm not going to dignify your incredibly, ostenatiously, and highly offensive insulting with a response. You've had me pissed off at you for about half an hour now with no signs of abating. I haven't hated anyone like this in a few months. I'm NOT thanking you for it. Next time you feel the need to insult, offend, and irritate me, do me the barely civil courtesy of ignoring me. It's awfully damned pathetic of you to insult someone you don't even know in such a nastily condescending, superciliously arrogant, oxymoronical manner.

[Edited by KillerMuffin on 03-13-2001 at 03:12 PM]

 

[SteamyChik]

1) Where should the line be drawn between the two categories?

Look at the level of violence, rape and kidnapping type scenerios are non-consent. A Master piercing his submissive, letting her be ganged banged at a party would fall on the side of consent. (Yes, I know, assuming it was all negotiated etc.)

2) Are there any overiding factors that should put a story clearly in one camp or another?

When a person is used, hurt, prostituted, seduced against their will or with the intent to harm, that would clearly be non-consent. Even with sadomasochism/masochism the players have some form of communicaiton going on whether verbal, signals etc.

3) What are your ideas about guidelines for writers that are unsure about which category their stories fall into?

Once again, think about your story overall Is the story about harming another person with the intention to hurt them mentally (like brainwashing them) or physically (rape)? Or is it a situation where the person being done to has a willing desire to experience the action. (Like a girl that tells her boyfriend her fantasy is to be kidnapped and raped - and he makes that happen - I would consider that BDSM not non-consent.)

Sometimes, you just have to put it where you think the readers will look for it. If there is enough squicky things in the story that would make it difficult for a lot of readers to handle, then non-consent might work best.

Good question! Don't know if I helped at all but those are my thoughts *smile*.

 

[Madame Pandora]

I am obviously missing something...

Muff? Are you responding to a thread that was deleted?

I’m looking at cymbidia’s post, and I have to say I found it very educational and informative and not at all confrontational.

What am I missing, Babe?

Otherwise, here is my two cents.

When this thread first came up, I knew very little about the Sub/Dom subculture. My relatively vanilla background didn't afford me much more than the bare bones of stereotype and assumption. I have since had a research helper educate me on the subject and I'm really fascinated by it - even wrote a story about it (which I intend to be the first of a 3 part series).

I think the defensiveness stems from the fact that responsible BDSM enthusiasts are tired of taking the rap for the few whacko nutjobs who steal the spotlight and become the focus of the media.

They way I separate it in my head is that an act of bondage (tying someone up, flogging them, etc) can be either consensual or nonconsensual. But a BDSM LIFESTYLE is all about consent. It’s about WANTING to be dominate/submissing and having a partner who wants to compliment that side of yourself.

If you think about it, this is really the same problem people have coming to terms with any other rape fantasy. Some people have no problem reading a story about a guy getting it on with his daughter, but turn that into a father RAPING his daughter and that crosses a line for some. I am NOT comparing BDSM to incest. All I’m saying is if you took ANY genre and wrote a non-consent version of it, you’d find the same reactions.

Non-consent walks a line for many, but because so many non-consent stories seem to contain ACTS OF BONDAGE, people immediately lump them together with BDSM. This is, of course, a misconception like any other. BDSM is a philosophy and a lifestyle. An ACT of bondage is a single act.

Anyway...that's how I see it. But I *DO* also see why there is such a confusion for people who don't look into this particular subculture. If you watched movies, you'd think every BDSM couple had wild orgies and a fully loaded dungeon, and goes around trying to fuck everything that moves (once they've tied it up and gagged it first). Look at 8MM, Seven, Pulp Fiction and Payback. The BDSM enthusiasts are ALWAYS the bad guys (and gals).

MP

 

[Laurel]

I agree that it's a touchy subject. So tell you what...if a story is placed by the author in BDSM, I will leave it in BDSM. If you all read the story and feel it does not belong in the BDSM category, you are free to email the author and myself with your concerns. The author can then email me to have the story changed to a more suitable category, if appropriate.

I've learned more about BDSM in the last few years (and a lot more on this very thread!), but I still don't feel comfortable moving stories around. So I'm relying on you kids - as authors and as readers - to help the BDSM category stay on track. Your participation in this thread has been wonderful, and any help in the future (should you see a miscategorized story) would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Madame Pandora]

Oh great...so now WE'RE resopnable?

MP

 

[KillerMuffin]

I overreacted and deleted the rot.

I'm still pissed off.

 

[cymbidia]

an apology

KillerMuffin,

I most sincerely beg your forgiveness for any slights or insults you felt flowing from my words to you. I honestly never intended offense to you. Instead, i sought only to add to what you'd already brought up for discussion, to shade and shadow your points with my own knowledge of BDSM vs. non-consensual sex. If i failed in that, as it seems i did, then i tender my deepest apologies.

In reality, i'm far too new here to be throwing flames, and such is not my way in any case. In the future, if my words again irritate you in any manner, i beg now for the generosity of your tolerance then. Please, if we find ourselves in a similarly unfortunate situation again, simply mention to me what i've said that you find offensive and i'll try to explain what i meant. I've never been a flamer and am not going to assume that role here and now.

~most humbly~
cym




(You gotta admit that no one can beg for forgiveness like a lifestyle submissive! ~wink~)

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm not wrong. I said everything you did only in Swahili.

 

[Paul K. Merrill]

Just Racing to keep up!

Re: The recent flareup 'tween Killer Muffin and Cymbidia:

Just what are the fastest ways to learn the ropes of the bulletin boards?

I've been hanging out (lurking, skulking around, peeping?) for a while but am just as confused as ever.

Not asking for sympathy, just something less than the riot act.

It looked to me as if Cymbidia has a degree in the lifestyle... was it the academic tone that grated?