BDSM is a state of mind (minor rant)

[PinkOrchid]

 

[Netzach]

That's all cool.

But I personally think it's important to say that BDSM is not JUST a state of mind.

I get a little pissy when people treat an o/l relationship as though it has equal/more weight than a real one. Perhaps I'm being chauvenistic, but that's just naive.

 

[MissTaken]

On line versus real time BDSM is like comparing apples and oranges.

I hate apples, but love oranges.



As Madame Steele states in an article I read there, on line roleplaying is another facet, another "kink", but does not replicate real time BDSM.

And as such, it should be accepted as a "kink", the same as anal sex, wax play etc.

Respect for everyone and their choices, circumstances is a good thing, but it can be difficult when either side takes the higher ground on the issue.

 

[Pure]

Pink Orchid said (see below).

I think you make a number of good points, on the old 'online' question. I don't think it has to be the 'black sheep' of the family.

It's my opinion that there are a number of elements in common with 'real time' kink, and that as Pink, says, one can feed the other, which wouldn't be true of 'apples and oranges.'

Here's another point about online that I haven't heard: If there is any pain infliction, it's self administered. That might seem vastly different, but, in reality, if someone irl whips you with your prior agreement and consent, and in accord with 'limits', that too, is self inflicted, in a sense. There's merely a detour through the other.

Same for 'withholding' e.g., of orgasm. It done by one's self, if online. Again this illuminates what happens in rl: it's NOT the case that the 'top' deprives the 'bottom', but that the bottom is deprived through her own actions.

That said, and leaving the SM thing aside, the real problem is that many online relationships, while emotional, are shallow, and the picture each has of the other is seriously incomplete. If the problem of 'real intimacy' is solved--- by persistence, and not expecting something in a few days-- then the SM aspects can fall into place.

J.




BDSM is a state of mind (minor rant)

I have to admit I have some issues with people who get on their high horses about online vs. rl vs. phone vs. brand X BDSM.

Yes, there are wannabes who are basically online players and will never be anything more. But there are also a lot of relationships that start online, and taking the above mentioned tack is insulting to them.

There are also people who *want* to have rl experiences but either lack opportunity, or won't engage in them without committment/love/or whatever their personal qualifications are. But online playing allows them to explore while looking.

Then there are those who prefer to role play online *prior* to engaging in rl activity to help ease what can be a difficult mental transition.

 

[A Desert Rose]

..... (pretend her post is here.)

I agree with most everything you said. To respond would be for me to just regurgitate your words.

I ditto your post.

 

[lark sparrow]

There are also people who *want* to have rl experiences but either lack opportunity, or won't engage in them without committment/love/or whatever their personal qualifications are. But online playing allows them to explore while looking.

Then there are those who prefer to role play online *prior* to engaging in rl activity to help ease what can be a difficult mental transition.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but it seems to me that these two points actually lend themselves to the differences between real life and cyber/phone BDSM rather plainly.

You know - it's not okay to play real life because of x, y and z, but it is okay to play online. Why?

Because there IS a difference, and although most everything can be said to be in the mind... it's not the same thing. An online relationship or scene can be valid and valuable to an individual but that does not make it a real life relationship, scene or activity in the community.

Talking about BDSM here online the lines tend to become even more blurred... a quick study of words and nuances can fit in quite well and even lead without ever stepping a foot into real life BDSM. This is a community, but it's a cyber community talking about BDSM. Valuable and valid hopefully, but that doesn't make it a real life munch anymore than a whipping scene online is similar to being smacked by a real person and flogger while truly being bound physically.

Respect for what it is... sure... but it's not real life BDSM, if that is what we are discussing.

 

[Pure]

LarkS said, in part,

it's not the same thing. An online relationship or scene can be valid and valuable to an individual but that does not make it a real life relationship, scene or activity in the community.

LS, as usual, makes good and intelligent points. Yet, I don't think 'pink' was saying there is 'no difference' between an online encounter and a RL one. I think she said, in my words, there are some similarities, esp. in that one may prepare for the other, at least in some cases.

An example from a time past, might illustrate the issue: a young man and woman meet and get to know each other just a little, as schoolmates. The man leaves, goes and live a thousand miles away, and they begin a correspondence, share confidences, and fall in love; they hardly ever talk on the phone, because of the costs. They agree to meet and 'consummate' the relationship; they do, and continue the love affair in both modes, writing and occasional meeting.

Now, is there any reason to say the correspondence phase is 'less real' than the one before? I think not. Simply the mode of interaction has changed. For instance, in the present era, they might have a lot of cheap long distance calls, or IM-ing.

The point of Pink is that the phases can support each other; there is a resemblance, an important one.

Again, in the example above; in the correspondence phase, there is a disagreement, after they've become close: one says 'don't write any more'; the other doesn't and gets very depressed. That's pretty damn real.

That said, I would not choose the words of pink "bdsm is a state of mind", nor do I say, in the example, "love {or intimacy} is a state of mind". In my example and words, there are common states of mind in the correspondence and meeting phases, but the reality is in the interaction. "Online bdsm" is different from two people sitting in separate cities fantasizing about each other, based on pictures exchanged (or maybe just seen posted online). There is interaction [online], hence it's not all 'in the mind.'

J.

=========

LS in full:

I don't mean to be confrontational, but it seems to me that these two points actually lend themselves to the differences between real life and cyber/phone BDSM rather plainly.

You know - it's not okay to play real life because of x, y and z, but it is okay to play online. Why?

Because there IS a difference, and although most everything can be said to be in the mind... it's not the same thing. An online relationship or scene can be valid and valuable to an individual but that does not make it a real life relationship, scene or activity in the community.

Talking about BDSM here online the lines tend to become even more blurred... a quick study of words and nuances can fit in quite well and even lead without ever stepping a foot into real life BDSM. This is a community, but it's a cyber community talking about BDSM. Valuable and valid hopefully, but that doesn't make it a real life munch anymore than a whipping scene online is similar to being smacked by a real person and flogger while truly being bound physically.

Respect for what it is... sure... but it's not real life BDSM, if that is what we are discussing.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Apples and oranges...that is the truth! While I would never claim that one is 'better' than the other, there is certainly a difference between online and real time. The are absolutely different, and comparing the two isn't really fair to either. While online play may have a validity in its own context(and is a completely valid starting point for real time play) it cannot be seen as equivalent to real time.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: BDSM is a state of mind (minor rant)

I don't mean to be confrontational, but it seems to me that these two points actually lend themselves to the differences between real life and cyber/phone BDSM rather plainly.

You know - it's not okay to play real life because of x, y and z, but it is okay to play online. Why?

Because there IS a difference, and although most everything can be said to be in the mind... it's not the same thing. An online relationship or scene can be valid and valuable to an individual but that does not make it a real life relationship, scene or activity in the community.

Talking about BDSM here online the lines tend to become even more blurred... a quick study of words and nuances can fit in quite well and even lead without ever stepping a foot into real life BDSM. This is a community, but it's a cyber community talking about BDSM. Valuable and valid hopefully, but that doesn't make it a real life munch anymore than a whipping scene online is similar to being smacked by a real person and flogger while truly being bound physically.

Respect for what it is... sure... but it's not real life BDSM, if that is what we are discussing.

Have to agree with LS. I don't think there are many who have a problem with somene saying they met online and progressed the relationship to real life, more so it becomes a problem when someone lives totally in the online experience then equates it to the real life experience, especially in statements in which the person professes to understand what it feels like to be whipped because their Dominant gives them regular online sessions with the whip. It just is not the same.

If that virtual world is where a person is comfortable, fine, but I find it a little hard to swallow when they tell me they are living a 24/7 relationship on the same terms as I am, experiencing the same things I am, when they have never had a physical face to face experience. Fantasy and role play are wonderful concepts, but can become exceedingly dangerous and/or insulting when claimed to be the same as real time experiences whether it be BDSM or playing world championship golf....it just ain't the same thing.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

I have to admit I have some issues with people who get on their high horses about online vs. rl vs. phone vs. brand X BDSM.

Yes... back to the old My BDSM is better than yours.

Yes, there are wannabes who are basically online players and will never be anything more. But there are also a lot of relationships that start online, and taking the above mentioned tack is insulting to them.

Just so no one missed her statement, here it is again. If I can paraphrase in my own words, I think what she said is that some have taken online meetings to the real life stage and that belittling that is an insult to those who have. I agree with her.

There are also people who *want* to have rl experiences but either lack opportunity, or won't engage in them without committment/love/or whatever their personal qualifications are. But online playing allows them to explore while looking.

Does anyone take issue with the above statement? I don't see anything there to disagree with. So, if someone is engaging in online exploration as a means to discover more about those issures, what's wrong with that?

Then there are those who prefer to role play online *prior* to engaging in rl activity to help ease what can be a difficult mental transition.

And this is a problem statement why?

And I'm sure there are more circumstances in which online relationships are valid and valuable, and, frankly, I'd like to see a little more respect for people who make such choices.

And again, I have no issue with what she has said. I agree with her.

What I do see is that the further this thread goes, the further away from what PinkOrchid actually said it seems to get.

And there is nothing wrong with furthering the discussion, but the above post is the only one she needs to defend, if she even wants to.

That is the end of my rant, too.

[/B]

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think part of the problem here is understanding that though a lot of BDSM is of the mind, that mindset is different in online compared to realtime just in the circumstances which surround it. Submitting to the pain of clothespins on nipples for example, may evoke a similar sensation in both situations, but not the same as even if you submit to the other person administering them as Pure referred to, it is not the same sensation as when you submit and apply them yourself no matter how you paint it. There is still that element of difference i sensation same as a self administered orgasm quite often fails to reach the pinnacle of one given by another hand. It is the mindset, the element of interaction with another person, and the circumstances and surroundings at the time. Is not a matter of contest, but is also not the same.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

I think part of the problem here is understanding that though a lot of BDSM is of the mind, that mindset is different in online compared to realtime just in the circumstances which surround it. Submitting to the pain of clothespins on nipples for example, may evoke a similar sensation in both situations, but not the same as even if you submit to the other person administering them as Pure referred to, it is not the same sensation as when you submit and apply them yourself no matter how you paint it. There is still that element of difference i sensation same as a self administered orgasm quite often fails to reach the pinnacle of one given by another hand. It is the mindset, the element of interaction with another person, and the circumstances and surroundings at the time. Is not a matter of contest, but is also not the same.

Catalina

But tell me where she says that one is the same as the other? Where does she say that one is preferable over the other? Where does she say that one is better than the other? Where does she say that the sensations of one are the same as the other? Where does she say all that?

She does not say it anywhere. If the big issue is over the phrase "bdsm is a state of mind" then her whole point is lost. And that is strictly unfair too. If it's a state of her mind... then so be it. But she says a great deal more than those 6 words and they seem to be all that anyone is taking up the discussion on.

 

[Pure]

Hi A Desert Rose,

It may surprise you, as it does me, but I think your points are very well taken.

It's unfortunate that the phrase 'state of mind' was given so much prominence by PinkO. You can't engage in DS or SM practices entirely in your head, as mental masturbation or fantasy.

As ADR points out, however, the points made by Pink, which argue for *links and *transitions and *similarities of online and RL have not been addressed by the simplistic slogan: "but online interactions are *different from RL ones."

Let's look at Catalina's critique; since Catalina is a very articulate and informed person, one deeply 'in the lifestyle' (though I hate that phrase):

Catalina is in italics:
I think part of the problem here is understanding that though a lot of BDSM is of the mind, that mindset is different in online compared to realtime just in the circumstances which surround it.


This is the same inadequate tactic just mentioned, simply saying "different." It's like saying, getting your flu shot from a dr. is "different" from getting it from a nurse. Why, because in the one case, you're with a dr! and in a dr's office! In the context of a program to prevent the flu this winter, this difference, in fact *makes no difference.* Are enough shots being given? If 10% of the population is inoculated, with that prevent a major outbreak?
Getting into the issue of 'dr administered' flushots is plainly irrelevant.

Further, consider that the 'dom/me's' RL command might well be: "put these clothespins on your nipples and twist them." --so that it's in fact the same hand that applies the pins, as online. Does Catalina consider this an 'invalid' command? not genuinely dominating or sadistic? Is the sensation clearly 'less intense' than if the dom/me applied the pins? Maybe it's more intense, because the subject is doing it under command, as it were.

Consider the command, in RL, "Masturbate yourself." Surely there is a high degree of similarity in what occurs on line or in person, if the same hand is doing the masturbating. Would "masturbate yourself" delivered in person give a less intense orgasm than if it happens in another way?

Consider the 'strange room' scene, often appearing in accounts: the sub is to go to an unfamiliar hotel room, and find a package: it's lingerie and 'toys.' There is a note from the 'dom/me' that says, "Take off your panties and put on the new ones." Is that a valid command? Is the 'submission' somehow unsatisfactory, because a written command is involved?

Then the phone rings, and his voice says, "Take the dildo and lick it and guide it into your pussy." Again it's clearly *different from his being there, but is the impact less? Is the penetration *less erotic? Is the sensation less intense? Is it not a genuine command?

Submitting to the pain of clothespins on nipples for example, may evoke a similar sensation in both situations, but not the same as even if you submit to the other person administering them as Pure referred to, it is not the same sensation as when you submit and apply them yourself no matter how you paint it.

First, she might have noted that my point was opposite to hers. I argued that a pre agreed, consented to, and limited episode is essentially using someone else as the tool (the hand that puts on the pins) in what's esssentially self administration.

Further, the 'not the same' line, is, as above, insufficient. It's not the same if the pins go on in the bathroom or the living room either, maybe. So what?

There is still that element of difference i sensation same as a self administered orgasm quite often fails to reach the pinnacle of one given by another hand.

A particularly bad example, since, for many, self administered orgasms are MORE intense than those brought on by others. This is documented in many books, ironically, particularly in the case of women, some of whom cannot 'come' through another's efforts. Admittedly it's less cosy if you're alone, etc., but the 'pinnacle' --assuming it does occur in both cases, is often described as higher, alone.

It is the mindset, the element of interaction with another person, and the circumstances and surroundings at the time. Is not a matter of contest, but is also not the same.

This is inadequate. Catalina claims a difference in "the element of interaction with another person." Is she really claiming that 'online' there is NO interaction? While fantasy provides 'no interaction,' both online, telephone, IM, video hookup, all provide for genuine interaction with another.

No doubt Catalina will now say, "talking on the phone is not *the same* as talking in person." Agreed. But depending on what you're trying to get done, i.e., masturbate yourself under another's directions, so that the other can hear your breathing and when you come, it may be quite sufficient and satisfying.

It could be further argued that the electronics, etc. are sufficiently weird and kinky to produce *more intense* reactions. For instance, I find that *seeing the words "I want you to fuck your ass with the dildo" on screen has more 'kick' than in person. The written form, and the impersonality of the command make it highly erotic. These are things most people never write down.

Catalina always has interesting things to say, and she invariably shows a fine intelligence. It just looks, in the present case, like a lack of effort to make a good argument.

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

ADR, for me my posts were directed as to why there is a contention of feelings in these issues and why there is a difference, which I maintain there is from the standpoint of someone who has experienced both and some places in between....acknowledging difference is not judging, just dealing with facts. Is a mistake many make...ie. people fighting for equal rights for women by saying they are no different to men, or Afro-American rights by saying they are no different to white Americans...the reality is they are different as is their reality, not better or worse, just different.

I think the call for respect PO calls for, taken in context of the whole post, tends to infer we should agree they are the same more so than respect....my observation is it is often the onliner's who have problems accepting the reality of other's real time and feel slighted when they compare a situation such as the whipping example I spoke of earlier, and find those who have actually felt a whip do not agree virtual whipping is the same as real whipping.

It can never be the same until taken a step further, simply because it is role play and fantasy whichever way you paint it. If I act in a play as a murderer, I can never say I know what it is to murder someone no matter how great my imagination is, but there is a tendency among some online BDSMer's who have never felt the reality, to compare their experiences with real experiences, then get upset when others don't agree. Is not a negative judgement, just a fact of life. The respect issue could just as easily be turned to onliners respecting those who live 24/7 in the same house, under the constant eye of their Dominant, instead of insisting they have the same experience because they have to be online 6 - 10pm every day or pay the consequences.

As with most discussions, if we stay word perfect to the initial post it is over in five minutes, or worse still, a page full of I agree's or disagree's....gets discussion nowhere and we are back to boredom again. Perceptions of the reader of the post will always be voiced as no two people will ever perceive the original message 100% as the writer themselves did.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Here we go again Pure.....I fail to see the comparison of doctor/ nurse flu shots as you are still gettting the shot from a trained person (not virtual shots), but yes, if you are sitting in front of a computer putting clothespins on your nipples or placing a collar around your neck yourself, the reality is different to if it is done by your Dominant, and again is different if you do it yourself in front of your Dominant's physical presence in the same room....especially if there is no webcam to ensure you have carried out the order to specifications, or at all (which onliners have admitted before today are the advantages of being online...no need to do anything you don't feel like)..so how about giving it a go as a scietific experiment Pure? Your observations would be invalueable.

As to valid commands, I don't remember mentioning those at all, only actuality and the sole online experience compared to the real life experience. I expect many may think they love the whip.....that is until the first time they feel it full force across their flesh and decide they want out, and real quick.

And your clothepins idea relating to rooms in the house...well that to me fails far more than my statements, but that is just IMHO and based on knowledge, unless of course you have others in the house and in the bedroom complete privacy, and the living room embarrassment and humiliation in front of others....then I can see a diifference. Of course I have had the experience of variousl ways of doing it...alone to see what it feels like for myself, alone and under command, in the presence of the Dominant, and doing myself while being watched by the Dominant. All were different sensations, but perhaps that lies in my being extremely emotional and sensitive which might lend to a vriation more easily than some.

I would suggest, as have many others before me, that you Pure come out of the closet and get at least some experience which goes further than reading Lit threads off the computer screen. As you have told us before, you have no experience and are not interested in being in the lifestyle, though from some of your postings I get the distinct impression there is a kinky being just rearing to be set free to experience their wildest fantasies. Why continue to dissect statements from those who are living the realities you maybe dream of, and try to sound as if you speak from an position of experience when your own words have told us you don't? I for one think your input from an informed real experience would be riveting reading so to speak and informative...a video of it even better!!

Call me a perve if you will, but my curiousity and sick sense of perversion cannot resist that image..especially the one I hold of the person you speak of as hiding in the 9th floor law library amongst all those dusty books. Personally I have a thing about the smell of books, old ones, new ones, glossy magazines, rice paper thin pages, thisck ones, thin ones...they all have their beauty and appeal, not to mention a wealth of knowledge and imagination, and I can be found sniffing a new book in rapture often. So how about it Pure...time for the real time now?!! I know you can do it.

Catalina
(BTW did I miss something? I didn't realise I was the only one who didn't echo I agree to the original thread...shouldn't we ask others to elaborate too, just to be fair and equal of course? LOL)

 

[Pure]

Catalina, in part,

It [online]can never be the same until taken a step further, simply because it is role play and fantasy whichever way you paint it. If I act in a play as a murderer, I can never say I know what it is to murder someone no matter how great my imagination is,

This is a prejudicial example, since in a 'play' there is no actual murder or murderer.

In the case of the online command "Masturbate yourself," there is actual masturbation, happening with an actual command, and there is interaction between two people.

Catalina gives no reason why this should be called 'play acting' or 'fantasy,' as compared to a RL situation where the dom/me issues the same command, gets compliance, and, I think it's safe to say, a similar outcome.

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, in part,

It [online]can never be the same until taken a step further, simply because it is role play and fantasy whichever way you paint it. If I act in a play as a murderer, I can never say I know what it is to murder someone no matter how great my imagination is,

This is a prejudicial example, since in a 'play' there is no actual murder or murderer.

In the case of the online command "Masturbate yourself," there is actual masturbation, happening with an actual command, and there is interaction between two people.

Catalina gives no reason why this should be called 'play acting' or 'fantasy,' as compared to a RL situation where the dom/me issues the same command, gets compliance, and, I think it's safe to say, a similar outcome.

J.

Are you sure about that Pure? I know of many online submissives who laugh at the thought their online Dominant actually believes they do any or all they are told. Not all live like this, but like I said, it is a reality and is not uncommon, and that is part of the problem of trying to comapre the two states, online vs reality, and say they are the same. They are not. But I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time and probably won't be the last..I am ready for you to prove to me there is áctual' masturbation, or clothespins, or breath play..as I know your love of evidence and scientifically proving all things or else discounting them as heresay, ...please do as I so hate being disillusioned.

Catalina

 

[serijules]

I belive that any form of BDSM is valid to the people involved in it. There is no right or wrong way to "do" BDSM if it works for those involved. However, I do understand why a lot of people turn their noses up at many forms of practicing the lifestyle, because people in these relationships often make their own situation out to be comparable to another, and most of the time, they aren't.

My relationship is long distance, and I spend much of my exploration online for many reasons, including there being no scene in my area, and my friends and partners living in other staes and not getting to see them as often as I'd like. Besides all that, I PREFER talking online, with my hearing impairment, it's just so much easier for me not to miss things. While I KNOW my relationships and the way I practice them is valid and I am just as submissive as the next, it is not comparable to someone that has a partner that they see on a daily basis. That doesn't mean mine isn't valid or shouldn't be respected or viewed as a real BDSM relationship, it just means that a submissive in a non LD real time relationship is bound to have more experience and be more solid than my own is. How could it not be, they get to be with their partner often and experience the issues of BDSM on a daily basis, in person. As valid as my own relationship is, it will never compare to that unless the distance situation changes.

For another example, I chat a lot with my group of friends, we've been a close-knit chatroom for a long time and it's a way to keep in touch between parties and whatnot. There is one girl there who belongs to a Domme friend of mine that, for whatever reason despite having many of her own real time subs, also has one that is strictly online. This girl has never been spanked by another person in her life, and she has never met her Domme despite being with her for years. Is her relationship valid? Yes. Does it compare to say, mine or any of her Domme's real-time relationships? No.

She has no real-time experience, and sometimes hearing her join in on conversations about submission or pain or how toys feel or whatnot as if she knows exactly what we are talking about, or even giving ADVICE to those of us that DO play in real life, drives me insane. Putting nipple clamps on yourself at your Domme's instructions is nice, I do it myself at times, but it doesn't even come close to comparing to when my Domme does it herself. The emotions are different, the sensations are different, the submissivness behind the act is stronger. It doesn't compare.

Same with self-spanking, or even something as simple as voicing respect. I can type "Yes Ma'am" a heck of a lot easier to my Domme than I can say it outloud, to her face. This girl will brag about taking 300 with a hairbrush and how sore she is...I somehow doubt she'd be able to take those same 300 in the hands of her Domme in real life (cuz she spanks hard, I know). If this girl would share her own experiences as what they are rather than acting like its the same as what the rest of us experience, I wouldn't mind so much, but she doesn't and sometimes it really well, pisses me off. It's like saying having 100 hours in a flight stimulator is the same as having 100 hours actual flying time.

I have a lot of respect for online and LD relationships, because I have a lot of experience in both, as well as a lot of real life experience...just not in a full time real life relationship yet. So while I feel online and long distance relationships are just as valid as real time ones, I do not think they compare to each other, nor can they ever compare. Both are forms of BDMS, both deserve respect for what they are, but that is where the similarity stops. The frustrations and even rudeness that comes from people in real time relationshops often stems, in my opinion, from people that insist on comparing the two as equal.

 

[Pure]

Catalina said in part,

I would suggest, as have many others before me, that you Pure come out of the closet and get at least some experience which goes further than reading Lit threads off the computer screen. As you have told us before, you have no experience

No I have not said this.

and are not interested in being in the lifestyle, though from some of your postings I get the distinct impression there is a kinky being just rearing to be set free to experience their wildest fantasies. Why continue to dissect statements from those who are living the realities you maybe dream of, and try to sound as if you speak from an position of experience when your own words have told us you don't?

False, and false in implication.

I for one think your input from an informed real experience would be riveting reading so to speak and informative...a video of it even better!!

Catalina, you've got three people who've made points you've never answered. Even if you were correct in your fantasy of me, ADR is saying essentially the same thing. The attempt to use personal characterization when argument fails is unbecoming. Next you'll be saying ADR is too much in the desert to know as much as you. And Pink Orchid is too young. This kind of thing is a lowball tactic.

It's a simple error to think that a literate style (or indication of reading books) indicates lack of experience; if that were so, then one might make the same (incorrect) inference about Francisco.

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Beautifially said Serijules....it is about difference and appreciating difference, but remembering one can not be considered the same as the other in all ways, but not necessarily better or worse. LDR are particularly hard to maintain, especially when you know what reality with that one is like.

Catalina

 

[WriterDom]

There is a lot of bdsm online/phone play that goes on between experienced Doms and subs who aren’t in a relationship at the moment. Either as a prelude to RL, or just for the rush. Is it equal? Of course not. Does it have value? To some it does.

I just find it a little ironic that people who have 1000s of posts and spend a great deal of their time HERE are putting down online anything.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

There is a lot of bdsm online/fun play that goes on between experienced Doms and subs who aren’t in a relationship at the moment. Either as a prelude to RL, or just for the rush. Is it equal? Of course not. Does it have value? To some it does.

I just find it a little ironic that people who have 1000s of posts and spend a great deal of their time HERE are putting down online anything.

I don't think anyone has posted anything putting down online relationships. Those of us who are realtime just want the online folks to respect that what they are doing is different. Not better or worse, just different.

 

[Pure]

Catalina said in part:

//But I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time and probably won't be the last..I am ready for you to prove to me there is áctual' masturbation, or clothespins,//

You are right I did not consider online deceptions. Yes they exist.
But not all online compliance is faked; that's an absurd claim, if you're making it.

Deceptions are possible in real life too, esp. when the dom isn't physically present for a time, i.e., he phones you at home, and says "Go downtown without wearing any panties, and go into a lingerie store, and do some shopping, letting your 'state' be known to the clerk. Tell me about it, when we next meet."

Commands like "Pinch your nipple as hard as you can." may be deceptively responded to. Further, 'red lights' or indications of distress "That's agonizing" or "That's too terrifying" can be shammed.

Indeed, the command "Masturbate to orgasm" delivered to a woman, may be met deceptively.

So I ask again, *assuming it occurs*, why is directed masturbation in an online situation less real or less intense or more 'play acting' than directed masturbation in real life *assuming, likewise, that it's not a sham*.

Yes, I read a lot, but simply answer the question.

J.


**SeriJules: I like your post!

 

[WriterDom]

I don't think anyone has posted anything putting down online relationships. Those of us who are realtime just want the online folks to respect that what they are doing is different. Not better or worse, just different.

Very true, and I'm not saying I don't find it annoying as hell when someone gets a cyber collar after two weeks and comes here to post about it.

But I don't see anyone here making the argument that it is equal.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Sorry Pure if I dreamed this admission months back, but seems it must have been a joint dream as I am not the only one who remembers you mentioning it....granted I do seem to remember you were under duress at the time. As to Francisco not being real, well fortunately we met others from Lit at the GT a couple of months back, so he did pass as being real and experienced and not a figment of my imagination. Geez I wish I coud conjure such wonders as he with my imagination alone!! You're safe, as we all know, you are the enigma of Lit and will remain so. As to personal characterization, out of admiration I am just trying to emulate your style which you have taught me in so many ways over past months.

Answering others? Well this is not my thread and so I am not going to answer every post, which overall seem to be saying the same as I did originally....that difference is difference and not the same, and does not say one is better or worse, but is not comparable as in understanding the relationship of the other. Fortunately I have experience in online, LDR, phone, real, and 24/7 so am not talking hypoothetically through my hat, just expressing a view as is my right the same as you. The reason I addressed you and ADR, which as far as I know she has no problem with, was both postings quoted my postings and apart from having the right to address that, I tend to like the fact discussions can be held here, not like other sites where 2-3 lines of waffle are offered and the discussion never happens.

Like I said in my previous post though, and you have clarified, I am not the only one who posted to this thread, and did not say anything different, so why if you are not trying to make personal characterisations or assassinations, do you only address my posts? As in the past you have done the same, I can only assume it is an attempt to make me disappear in shame. Sorry, you picked the wrong girl. Submissive does not translate to doormat in my reality. OK Pure? Over and out.

Catalina