BDSM as a high art

Krinaia

Desperately perverted
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Posts
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Modern art is often about the experience and emotional expression of the viewer. It's about site and space and location. Art of less contemporary persuasions is often meant to bedisplayed in a frame on a wall or in the form of a statue. If you walk into any MoCA (Museum of Contemporary Art), you'll find that "art" has transformed. It's engaging. The art is often not just the object being displayed but the interatcion of the people viewing it. Their actions and emotional reponses become part of the art.

I've been thinking a lot about this concept and applying it to finding art in everyday life experiences. And I've been arguing with myself over what is "high art" and if there is such a thing. I think I often use the term to define the difference between bad art and good art. Which is incorrect. Or the difference between professional art and amateur art. Which is also incorrect.


Some examples:

Bad architects - those whose designs fail - not necessarily structural but whose plazas remain vacant and whose bldgs become too expensive to maintain. Versus an architect whose design is a sucess on every level. The comparison does not make the better architecture a "high art" though the better architecture may very well fall into that category.

Poetry written by someone just wishing to release tension versus poets such as T.S. Eliot or Robert Frost. Is calling the amateur poetry a baser art wrong simply because it lacks depth due to the author's perhaps smaller ability? Does high art imply a level of knowledge and thoughtfulness of writing, and poetry itself, and literature that an amatuer may lack? Do we not all start out as amatuers?


So I'm left asking myself what is high art. Not necessarily what is art. I have strong opinions on what is art and what is good art. And I'd like to say with all the art classes and architecture classes and literature, humanities, and history classes that I am fairly knowledgable (at least more than the average person)

But back to contemporary art. A lot of what passes for contemporary art and the reasons it is considered art makes me think of bdsm scenes. Carefully constructed to a particular space, to heighten the awarenesses of the participants - to evoke strong emotions through their interaction. Perhaps not all scenes are artful. Perhaps none are. But I think the elements are there.

And though I said earlier that high art is not simply good art in comparison to bad art ... I think it is a term that states a comparison. I just think it's much more involved than good vs. bad. I think though that there is a sense of drama and emotion in a bdsm scene that is missing in a regular love scene that perhaps makes it high art.

Perhaps high art is just a way of saying elitest art. But I think that's wrong too ... because high art can be enjoyed by all just as fine wine can be enjoyed by all ... it just takes a connoisseur
to know the difference and understand what makes the difference.

___ random late night thoughts - in preparation for a research paper on art versus architecture and architecture as art___
 
SkylineBlue said:
A lot of what passes for contemporary art and the reasons it is considered art makes me think of bdsm scenes. Carefully constructed to a particular space, to heighten the awarenesses of the participants - to evoke strong emotions through their interaction. Perhaps not all scenes are artful. Perhaps none are. But I think the elements are there.

The main difference in my opinion is that art should not be directed at the artist. It can be very fulfilling for a writer, poet or sculptor to create, but his attention is - or should be - directed to his audience.

An artist is a messenger, one who takes reality, gives it a twist, a personal color, and shows this to the world, so we can learn and enjoy....

A BDSM scene, how creative it can be, would first of all be directed to the participants. If not, it would just be theatre...

Wolf
 
Re: Re: BDSM as a high art

wolf2002 said:
A BDSM scene, how creative it can be, would first of all be directed to the participants. If not, it would just be theatre...
And here I was gonna say that the theatrical aspects of either public BDSM or planned scenes wherein one person is definitely the author and the partner is the audience are exactly what would make BDSM "high art!"

I figure that BDSM that's created equally by the participants for the participants (and for no one else's pleasure) is a personal interaction rather than a public art. I think the art comes in when there's somebody who's not creating the scene, but who's experiencing the results -- either as voyeur or as a done-to participant.
 
Art is such a hard thing to pin down - so dependent on taste.

I think I would argue against art having to be public, however.



You guys pointed out something I had really made a connection with - bdsm as theatre. Does that make the dominant the director or just another actor?
 
My background is in contemporary art, theory and practise, this is right up my alley.

There are a large number of contemporary artists, particularly in the 80's and 90's who dealt with SM, fetishes, and the body both directly and less directly (Mapplethorpe, Catherine Opie, Bob Flanagan, and Ashley Bickerton all come to mind)

I have come to view SM and particularly bondage as an artwork, as a behavioral and process kind of artwork like Robert Smithson or Alan Kaprow talked about in the 70's where art becomes the behavior of creativity, becomes a life lived in a creative mode. I don't think of art as being artificial, or theater, more that these are contextual. Think of it, D/s is a kind of contextuality, much like performance (non-proscenium).
 
heh, i'm not exactly sure how to be smart with this.. i'm too tired... but uh.. bdsm as art...
i'm in a fetish photo community on lj... mmm kumi pictures and http://www.lithiumpicnic.com/ (not to advertize or anything thier jsut beautiful pictures.)
 
hey thanks ... that is a way awesome site. I think I shall resume my screwdriver whilst browsing it
 
SkylineBlue said:
Art is such a hard thing to pin down - so dependent on taste.

I think I would argue against art having to be public, however.



You guys pointed out something I had really made a connection with - bdsm as theatre. Does that make the dominant the director or just another actor?

Sometimes both- just like Hitchcock.

But I have always considered it an art - More like playing the violyn though.
 
I have thought a lot today about your thread, Sky.

As I was making slow love to my dildo, I thought about how that was not even close to high art or drama. It was more like finger painting with frosting on the kitchen floor. Nothing to really look at, you know?

LOL
 
I was just thinking ... and this is exactly related to art ... but right now i'm hurting inside and I could really use a scene where in I get restrained and given some pain that will make me cry and then fucked hard. It would be such beautiful escape. To be allowed to enter that space where I completely stop thinking. To momentarily replace one pain which I cannot handle with one which I can. To release control of myself and allow another to give me this escape.

I'm not sure why I wanted to call bdsm art when it is so much more than that.
 
SkylineBlue said:
I was just thinking ... and this is exactly related to art ... but right now i'm hurting inside and I could really use a scene where in I get restrained and given some pain that will make me cry and then fucked hard. It would be such beautiful escape. To be allowed to enter that space where I completely stop thinking. To momentarily replace one pain which I cannot handle with one which I can. To release control of myself and allow another to give me this escape.

I'm not sure why I wanted to call bdsm art when it is so much more than that.

Your pain is so raw SB, wish there were something I could do. I can certainly relate to the idea of replacing one pain with another in a form of therapy. As to you questioning your choice to call BDSM art, I did not read you as thinking it were an either/or situation where it could not be more than one thing. Many modern art forms are dual purpose and cover a variety of purposes, none less valid than the other. If you want feel free
to PM if you think it would help. Take care.

Catalina:rose:
 
A few links:

chttp://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/O/odell_contract.html
 
Supersadomasochistic......

Wierd, went to a respiratory workshop today and one of the topics covered was C.F. and I told a (much younger) friend about Bob F. and his film,And I pop in here and heres a link to it.
I would recommend his diary too, I read it online but it was a long time ago, shouldnt be too hard to find tho....

I love bdsm inspired art, sketches, paintings, digital,cartoons, vintage,some photography.Shibari would have to be considered an artform.
Fetish wear is a lot about glamour, ( both definitions), style and visual.
but bdsm as art?
I guess its like a dance to me...
Funny. I never danced well before, I had a tendency to lead, I wonder if I had lessons now I would find it easier?
 
SkylineBlue said:
I love hitchcock

which of his films is your favorite?

Actually - now that I think about it - my strongest memory of him is the old "Alfred Hitchcock Presents".

Hmmm Perhaps contemplate BDSM in relation to Haiku?
 
I have to admit to not being old enough to remember the Hitchcock TV series - I've seen an episode or two on AMC but I don't know that they actually play it on any TV stations I actually get. PErsonally I'm most partial to his films that contain Cary Grant :) But I love the birds. I was terrified the first time I saw that. Last spring semester I was supposed to be studying but there was a Hitchcock marathon starting with the Birds and then Notoroious ... and a few others. .. I fell asleep during Psycho which I still haven't seen all the way through :(


thanks for the link .. I'll have to look up that guy Bob F.

I like the quote on the second link - it's right under the title it says " masochists are really cool people"
 
SkylineBlue said:
I have to admit to not being old enough to remember the Hitchcock TV series - I've seen an episode or two on AMC but I don't know that they actually play it on any TV stations I actually get. PErsonally I'm most partial to his films that contain Cary Grant :) But I love the birds. I was terrified the first time I saw that. Last spring semester I was supposed to be studying but there was a Hitchcock marathon starting with the Birds and then Notoroious ... and a few others. .. I fell asleep during Psycho which I still haven't seen all the way through :(


thanks for the link .. I'll have to look up that guy Bob F.

I like the quote on the second link - it's right under the title it says " masochists are really cool people"

True - but I think I am most partial to "The Birds" and "Psycho".
The movies with James Stewart were very good. I remember the series cause it always started with Hitch doing an intro. He was really cool - especially considering I was a kid.
 
EKVITKAR said:
True - but I think I am most partial to "The Birds" and "Psycho".
The movies with James Stewart were very good. I remember the series cause it always started with Hitch doing an intro. He was really cool - especially considering I was a kid.

I love 'the back window', that voyeuristic bent to it...
 
Art, perhaps...

But there is certainly an aesthetic and a strong sense of style, the aesthetic being more broadly encompassing and the style being more concerned with execution.

Take, for example, a pic of a goth girl (titled yellow3, I believe it's copyrighted so is not available to post) I found on lithiumpicnic.com (thanks, ammre for the tip!).

Cute girl, hands on hips, modest chest thrust out. Hair, lips, and eyes very stylized. Exudes a very clear tension between her manner, her pose, and the pleated plaid skirt and platform black boots over yellow knee socks.

The photo is art, but the girl is a performance piece. She knows what boys want -- and girls too.

There is a strong sense of performance and theatricality to our world and our sense of sexuality -- if I can be so bold as to generalize. It is, in a word, extra-sensory. It is not only the act itself, but the anticipation and then the recollection. It's not only the fact of flesh -- or leather or wood or cane -- striking flesh. It's also the sound. And the sound the submissive makes when the blow falls. And the look on his or her face. The pace of breathing. The sight of skin turning from flesh to pink to red. The verbal interplay. I think everyone gets the idea.

Art? Sometimes. An aesthetic? Most definitely.

Additional thought: The Hitchcock comments are on the mark.
 
landcruisergal said:
I love 'the back window', that voyeuristic bent to it...

Isn't that "Rear Window"

Perhaps your mind is on other (more enjoyable) things than movies??????
 
I think your thoughts are a very good vocalization of what i was thinking Peter. Except I don't go so much for the gothic bent.
 
SkylineBlue said:
I think your thoughts are a very good vocalization of what i was thinking Peter. Except I don't go so much for the gothic bent.



Thanks. Truth be told, I'm more of a Helmut Newton fan. But the Goth girl was there, at hand.
 
I checked out those pictures too. They're interesting. Reminds me of a book of Japanese teen fashion I see being sold in art museums all the time... I think it's called "Fruit" and published by "Phiadon" but i'm not exactly certain. You might enjoy it.
 
Only Helmut Newton photo I loved in NY.

Blonde supermodelific stick amazon with lots of jewelry and red red lipstick. Toilet paper adhered to lipsticked mouth, for "blotting" lipstick seeping into the square in a totally obscene spreading red ring, the square of toilet paper obscuring the lower half of her face in a particularly degraded way.
 
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