BDSM and step families

[Shadowsdream]

I will be giving a talk soon about bringing a sub or a Dom/me into a family that has children and inlaws from a previous relationship and how to make the transision and long term feasibility sucessful.

Step families can be difficult without the addition of submission and Domination as we all know. This conversation would interest Me if both submissives and Dominants could lend some insight on how they have or have seen issues inside of this family dynamics resolved successfully. Or...if such a family dynamic cannot be resolved satisfactorly and why?

Anyone care to join Me in a new conversation?

 

[graceanne]

I'm very interested in anything anyone will say. Frankly, me and K have three kids and babysit up to three others. We're trying to get the hang of BDSM with kids.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I'm very interested in anything anyone will say. Frankly, me and K have three kids and babysit up to three others. We're trying to get the hang of BDSM with kids.

Hello graceanne and welcome to the thread.

One of the issues that is brought to Me repeatedly in the step family senerio is the lack of control a Dom/me has with His/Her own children which undermines the respect and beliefs of the submissive brought into an existing family. Said submissives begin to lose respect for their Dom/me and I often see them finding it impossible to enjoy the children or like them due more to inner conflict than the children themselves.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

the lack of control a Dom/me has

Can you elaborate here? Does this mean s/he has a different personality with the children, i.e. a bedroom only Dom/mes, or something more sinister?

 

[Shadowsdream]

Can you elaborate here? Does this mean s/he has a different personality with the children, i.e. a bedroom only Dom/mes, or something more sinister?

When children run the home rather than the mother or the father. When the submissive has no say or help in keeping the home tidy but becomes a slave in effect to cleaning up after children that show her/him no respect.

It can be difficult for a submissive to take orders when the children in the home are not required to obey and excuses for bad behaviour are never ending or not seen by the parent.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Two words

When children run the home rather than the mother or the father. When the submissive has no say or help in keeping the home tidy but becomes a slave in effect to cleaning up after children that show her/him no respect.

It can be difficult for a submissive to take orders when the children in the home are not required to obey and excuses for bad behaviour are never ending or not seen by the parent.

Fuck that.

Oh hell, [rant on] i wouldn't respect a "Dom/mes" that didn't have control over his/her own damn house. i'd respect a submissive even less for staying there. If the "Dom/mes" didn't agree with the upbringing of the children while in the former relationship, s/he doesn't have a leg to stand on now that s/he runs his/her household without argument. The "Dom/mes" in question needs to get control of his/her life before bringing a submissive into the house. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but i'm getting a little tired of seeing supposed PYLs that exhibit very little self-control and responsibility, to include control of their immediate surroundings even in casual situations.

If that makes me a tight ass, dial that pucker factor up to 80. [/rant off]

 

[Shadowsdream]

Fuck that.

Oh hell, [rant on] i wouldn't respect a "Dom/mes" that didn't have control over his/her own damn house. i'd respect a submissive even less for staying there. If the "Dom/mes" didn't agree with the upbringing of the children while in the former relationship, s/he doesn't have a leg to stand on now that s/he runs his/her household without argument. The "Dom/mes" in question needs to get control of his/her life before bringing a submissive into the house. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but i'm getting a little tired of seeing supposed PYLs that exhibit very little self-control and responsibility, to include control of their immediate surroundings even in casual situations.

If that makes me a tight ass, dial that pucker factor up to 80. [/rant off]

~~grin~~

Well AA Your reply pretty much mirrors the eventual outcome of a D/s relationship that watches trust erode through this means. BUT many of these relationships once under taken do have the possibility of success if both parties are sincere in wishing it to succeed.

So on the premise that said relationship already does exist and there is that eternal struggle of control within the vanilla portion of said relationship...do you, as a Dom see anything that the Dominant can do to save their D/s dreams without giving up what They see as their control to the desires or needs of the submissive.

As a Dominant do You have any advice for a submissive in how she or he could approach their Dom/me without worsening the situation?

 

[graceanne]

When children run the home rather than the mother or the father. When the submissive has no say or help in keeping the home tidy but becomes a slave in effect to cleaning up after children that show her/him no respect.

It can be difficult for a submissive to take orders when the children in the home are not required to obey and excuses for bad behaviour are never ending or not seen by the parent.

See, that's not our problem. The kids are both of ours, neither of us has kids from a past relationship. But I do know that if something were to happen to K, and I was to get in another relationship with a guy who had kids, I wouldn't even go there unless I had punishment authority with his kids. And I sure wouldn't move in if I didn't trust him to punish my children.

Me and Kenny's problems are more a matter of:

Thin, shared walls; no privacy, things like that.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Grinning back

~~grin~~

You wicked wench ...

Let's get some parameters straight first. To what do you refer when you say "the vanilla portion"?

One portion of this sticks out like a sore thumb.

... save their D/s dreams without giving up what They see as their control to the desires or needs of the submissive.

We've got apples and oranges going on here, but all integral to the fruit salad.

First, "Dom/mes" needs to get control of the kids. By the limited information i've got, it sounds like the kids need a reality check. i don't know many relationships (to include "vanilla") where the new partner wouldn't feel put out by the disruptive influence of kids out of control. i'm not advocating a sudden drill sergeant approach here if the "Dom/mes" in question can't wear the stripes. One can get a child under control in many ways.

Second, if "Dom/mes" wants his/her D/s dreams, s/he needs to exhibit good "control" capabilities in most things. Which leads us right back to "First." This isn't a negotiable aspect in the relationship. Why on earth would any submissive wish to live in a schizophrenic household where "Dom/mes" rules the roost until punkass kid(s) walk(s) through the door? The hypocrisy would leave most submissives rolling on the floor laughing next time "Dom/mes" donned his/her Master/Mistress mantle.

Advice? As in all things, "we need to sit down and talk, roles off my love." A simple explanation should suffice. We're not talking logic puzzle of Gordian proportions here.

 

[snowy ciara]

So on the premise that said relationship already does exist and there is that eternal struggle of control within the vanilla portion of said relationship...do you, as a Dom see anything that the Dominant can do to save their D/s dreams without giving up what They see as their control to the desires or needs of the submissive.

As a Dominant do You have any advice for a submissive in how she or he could approach their Dom/me without worsening the situation?

I know this was originally asked to AA so please pardon me if I'm over the line here by attempting to answer it.

I didn't come from a step family, but I do come from a D/s family. We had foster kids a lot, and many of them are still in touch. Some (like blue kat) are closer than others. Of course, we had her the longest, I think. But anyway. My dad's the PYL and my mum's the pyl. I don't know if their D/s ing predates the marriage or not, but I think maybe it does, or it goes back nearly that far. They had 4 boys, and me 8 years later and various foster kids. I passed on your questions to mum. She says:

"Many of the control issues that she alludes to are inherent in non-steps too. We see them in the families that are adopted, foster families and even so-called 'traditional' families where one parent is too easy on the kids. Or sometimes, as the children grow, they see that one parent is submissive to the other. Kids, especially teens, like to push the envelope and see how far they can get. They WILL try to push the submissive parent's envelope, in most cases.

Your father and I laid down some ground rules. You probably remember that Thursday night is our night, and has been since you were little. (I think we had Wednesday before that. It doesn't matter; the fact is, the time was ours with no rugrats.) During that time, we could discuss anything with each other, with no recriminations and no punishments. There were ground rules, of course. No yelling, no accusing each other, no profanity. This was when we discussed power struggles between the kids and myself, or sometimes your father and myself, and this was where the big decisions got made. Short of calling your father a stuffed shirt with no clue how to relate to little girls, I could say just about anything I needed too. (Ironically, you seemed to struggle more against your father than you did with me. That was a definite change from the boys!) This is where we discussed discipline issues, too. We disciplined you different than Jamie, who was different than Kait, because you were different children. This is a good rule for step families. If the dominant parent is too easy on the kids, or is letting the kids run all over the submissive parent, they need to have a time when the kids are NOT around to work this out. First off, if they overhear the discussion, it WILL undermine the credibility of both parents and their authority, especially if they end up arguing about it. Second off, children think they're the centre of the universe and they will interrupt for the silliest things.

Another really important rule we had was that we always presented a united front. When I was home with you kids, I could make whatever unilateral decisions I needed and he would back me up. If he didn't agree with a decision I'd made, we would discuss it between ourselves and then decide where to go from there. It went the other way, too. I could tell your dad that I thought he was wrong and if I convinced him otherwise, he'd change his decision. You probably remember this; as I distinctly remember several times when I thought he was too hard on you. Sometimes I was right, sometimes I wasn't. But the point is, we presented a united front, none of you were allowed to walk all over your mum, and neither of us were allowed to undermine the other's authority.


Finally, I was never ever disciplined for anything that had to do with you kids, (with the exception of my notorious temper) and if I was ever in a situation where discipline was necessary it never ever took place within hearing or view of the kids. ***minor snippage here; mumly advice not really relevent to the conversation at hand*** That would've again undermined my authority with you and lost me some respect in some cases. Children need to respect their parents, regardless of one's role in the D/s marriage.

My last suggestion, not only do steps need to discuss child rearing philosophies before marriage, they also need to see how the other parent enforces those philosophies. They need to spend time together WITH the kids before they become the Brady Bunch. Hopefully they can see any problem areas before they become a problem and act pro-actively, not re-actively. But if they're not willing to work together on this, the relationship is probably going to fail."

<rest of email snipped as it's not relevant to the discussion, reprinted with permission from both of my parents. God! This is so weird!>

 

[LunarKitten]

Coyote Pondering and I were married this November. I have an eleven year old from a previous relationship. When our relationship past the casual, dating only stage and his presence became an increasingly normal thing around her and we decided that his moving in was a natural progression over the past summer, he took control of the entire household (kids and cats, alike) - in fact, we're fixing to start the proceedings for him to adopt her.

In my opinion, if you don't make it immediately obvious who the alpha of the pack is, there will be big problems further down the line.

Aside from negotiating a D/s relationship, you should also be able to sit down and negotiate the household - whether you're getting married or just moving in together. If there are kids involved, it should be discussed who will be the disciplinarian (or whether the non-biological parent is allowed to do so) and what limits there are in their care before the two of you have to agree upon something - such as, the non-parent can ok a sleepover without asking the parent if it's ok, but medical care should always be a two person agreement between both of them.

If these things aren't agreed upon, chaos is bound to rule within the household and the child/ren will not respect either parental role. And who would want a PYL or a pyl who couldn't take care of their household - cause if they can't control/take care of their child/ren, how are they going to control/take care of you?!

 

[Silverlily]

D/s or not, I think anytime a step family is formed and there is little or no control over the children, you're in for a rough ride.

Having side that, were I can see an issue would be when the Dominant is the "new person". Now, my husband and I are not a D/s relationship, but the first time he disciplined either of my girls, my hackles were up. I had to learn to let go and let him be the father. I imagine that initial feeling in a submissive would cause some issues.

 

[CutieMouse]

Shadowsdream, thank you for starting this topic of discussion.

I'm discovering that the D/s + children can complicate things before anything even gets serious enough to be a "step-family" situation. Especially if the Friendship is in the developing stages, long distance, one person has no experience with children, and the other is somewhat consumed by parenthood by necessity.

I don't see any easy answers. It would be lovely if children (particularly say... three year olds) were miniature adults or robots and you could say "Do XYZ" and know it never had to be repeated, or that Life's schedule (regardless of children) could be predicted with great accuracy. However- children (particularly three year olds) are not miniature adults or robots, and even the nicest and older than three year old children throw monkey wrenches in Life's schedule.

So in my approaching things from that very consumed place and trying ever so hard to sort things out to the benifit of all... I have to say I have no earthly idea how to make such a thing work. I wish I did.

 

[redelicious]

I don't have any specific info about BDSM and step families. However, I have found a really good group on yahoo called Parents In The Lifestyle. Their main focus, as one might guess, is "for folks who participate in some aspect of WIITWD, whether 24/7 or 'weekend' play while trying to balance the demands of family and the vanilla world." The subject of step/combined families comes up quite often, and I think it's a great resource for anyone into BDSM who is also a parent.

Parents In The Lifestyle

Please pardon the hijack.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ok not going into a rant, I am going to display a lot of self control here, but I am going to use my swords to cut through the Gordian knot, because it is actually just like Alexander a very easy puzzle to solve. I really do not see much difference between a BDSM couple dealing with stepchildren and a vanilla couple dealing with stepchildren. BDSM should never touch the lives of innocent children.

I have a step son, Catalina has two children and one of them is a boy of 19 year old which is living with us. It is clear that although the two of us are living as a BDSM couple that part of our life is separate from our relationship with Catalina’s son. We have a TPE relationship but that is something between the two of us and the both of us made very clear that children fall outside the realm of BDSM. I would also never punish Catalina in front of any of her family.

A BDSM relationship is just like any other relationship just with a couple of extra ingredients. It is educating children together, it is sharing the responsibility together, and it is about communication and about respect, not only from the pyl towards the PYL but especially from the PYL towards the pyl and the pyl’s family.

There is a tendency to make believe that just because you are a dominant anything and everything just falls into place and everything is easy and without effort. I would like to see those Dominants take charge and control of a child with a personality disorder. Theatrics are all very nice but it comes down to not acting but living the reality of everyday life. BDSM is not IMHO something which is hard and uncaring and cold, it is vibrant full of colour and emotions. A PYL is not a divine being, a PYL has feelings and emotions and moments of strength and moments of weakness ignoring that is asking for trouble and an invitation to disaster.

Francisco.

 

[CutieMouse]

There is a tendency to make believe that just because you are a dominant anything and everything just falls into place and everything is easy and without effort. QUOTE]

Thank you for this in particular, Francisco. It's a lot of what I've been feeling lately. Not that there is some assumption that I'm not making an effort, but the confusion as to why things in my universe run so contrary to how a childless person pictures life with children when it's "simple"- you say do this, expect to be obeyed the first time, it's over.

[sorry if I hijacked]

 

[Kajira Callista]

I will be giving a talk soon about bringing a sub or a Dom/me into a family that has children and inlaws from a previous relationship and how to make the transision and long term feasibility sucessful.

Step families can be difficult without the addition of submission and Domination as we all know. This conversation would interest Me if both submissives and Dominants could lend some insight on how they have or have seen issues inside of this family dynamics resolved successfully. Or...if such a family dynamic cannot be resolved satisfactorly and why?

Anyone care to join Me in a new conversation?

More and more i am beginning to believe it can not work. In my world i am not comfortable with throwing my responsibility at another person. My kids are my responsibility. They also have a father who plays an active role in their lives and they are happy so i want that to continue. I often feel that just by me being a strong mother i can no longer be a slave to someone. I can see alot of friction because making decisions for my children is what I do and would want to do on my own as i always have. Having a dominant telling me to do something that i am not sure is right for the kids would get me kinda pissy....and pissy doesn't equal submitting to his/her will. Another issue is that i can not figure out how to give myself completely to someone when most of me belongs to my children. They are young and still need mommy all the time... and yes mommy caters to them big time. So when does she have the time to kneel before her dominant? Bottom line is...i wouldn't be putting my all into the relationship so i feel i shouldn't even make the attempt.

 

[catalina_francisco]

More and more i am beginning to believe it can not work. In my world i am not comfortable ........
.... i feel i shouldn't even make the attempt.

To me it is all about clarity and openness. I do not see how any partner that just jumps into a relationship can expect to suddenly control the future of their partner’s children. That is simply unheard of IMHO.

I can see an advisory role for a partner, a supporting role but a mother is a mother and a father is a father. With time and years the role of a partner can become more but that is something which needs to be earned. Sometimes issues do come up that involve the whole household and at those times it needs to be a joint decision, but you can not expect a parent to suddenly give over their responsibility to another person.

BDSM is a personal choice, a decision which is made by yourself for yourself. It is not a decision which can be made for someone else so it certainly can not be made for your children. Children simply fall outside the realm of BDSM. They do not touch nor should they ever touch the BDSM realm.

But this does not mean that once you have children a BDSM relationship is impossible, quite the contrary I would say. Again it is a matter of communication, openness, clearness and a willingness to tackle together possible issues.

Francisco.

 

[Kajira Callista]

To me it is all about clarity and openness. I do not see how any partner that just jumps into a relationship can expect to suddenly control the future of their partner’s children. That is simply unheard of IMHO.

I can see an advisory role for a partner, a supporting role but a mother is a mother and a father is a father. With time and years the role of a partner can become more but that is something which needs to be earned. Sometimes issues do come up that involve the whole household and at those times it needs to be a joint decision, but you can not expect a parent to suddenly give over their responsibility to another person.

BDSM is a personal choice, a decision which is made by yourself for yourself. It is not a decision which can be made for someone else so it certainly can not be made for your children. Children simply fall outside the realm of BDSM. They do not touch nor should they ever touch the BDSM realm.

But this does not mean that once you have children a BDSM relationship is impossible, quite the contrary I would say. Again it is a matter of communication, openness, clearness and a willingness to tackle together possible issues.

Francisco.

hmmm maybe im not willing to tackle the issues, or maybe i just dont see how i can... so for me i suppose, its just better to close the door on this part of my life...at least for now.

 

[catalina_francisco]

hmmm maybe im not willing to tackle the issues, or maybe i just dont see how i can... so for me i suppose, its just better to close the door on this part of my life...at least for now.

That would be a real waste Kajira, I think you have the making of a great pyl. There are many PYL who would gladly make that journey together with you.

Just because you have children it does not mean you do not have the right to be in a BDSM relationship. With the correct partner anything is possible and just as I was lucky enough to find mine so will you find yours.

Francisco.

 

[sunfox]

Now, my husband and I are not a D/s relationship, but the first time he disciplined either of my girls, my hackles were up. I had to learn to let go and let him be the father. I imagine that initial feeling in a submissive would cause some issues.

This is an issue of mine, definitely. Although C has been with me since well before my daughter was born, she is biologically mine and will soon be adopted his. I raised her alone while we were dating long distance, but he has always been a part of her life. Nevertheless, it sometimes makes punishment or comfort a problem for us because I will feel very bristley about him not comforting her as quickly as I would, or not punishing her the way I feel she should be.

Communication. That word again. When I feel pissed about something he's done, we talk about it and work it out, whether it be me just venting when I know I should be capable of letting it go, or if I really feel we need to adjust something in the way he deals with her.

In reference to Shadowsdream's initial issue... I have to agree with AA that if the PYL cannot control their own children and is not capable of providing a united front with the pyl, they should rethink their position for a while until they can do so. Being submissive does not translate to doormat for the step-children (or natural children, for that matter), and I doubt, if my daughter was old enough to articulate it, that she would in any way say that she felt I was the easier one to tromp on.

 

[graceanne]

More and more i am beginning to believe it can not work. In my world i am not comfortable with throwing my responsibility at another person. My kids are my responsibility. They also have a father who plays an active role in their lives and they are happy so i want that to continue. I often feel that just by me being a strong mother i can no longer be a slave to someone. I can see alot of friction because making decisions for my children is what I do and would want to do on my own as i always have. Having a dominant telling me to do something that i am not sure is right for the kids would get me kinda pissy....and pissy doesn't equal submitting to his/her will. Another issue is that i can not figure out how to give myself completely to someone when most of me belongs to my children. They are young and still need mommy all the time... and yes mommy caters to them big time. So when does she have the time to kneel before her dominant? Bottom line is...i wouldn't be putting my all into the relationship so i feel i shouldn't even make the attempt.

As Francisco said BDSM shouldn't affect the kids. Me and K are D/s except for the kids. Everything with the kids is discussed. There's normally not an issue, cause we have very similar discipline beliefs. We made sure of it before we got married. Our big things was covered by Snowy's mum. We don't undermine eachother, and we don't let the kids hear us arguing about them.

Even our D/s has one area of discussion. If I think it's gonna harm the kids, K know's I'm gonna balk. Our kids are the most important aspect of our lives, and nothing is gonna come between that. Frankly, if something were to happen to K, and I were to get into another relationship, my new Dom would have to understand and agree with that, or I'd dump him on his ass.

I think that having kids can definately make things difficult in finding a relationship, but I think that's typical in vanilla relationships, too. (Never mind, I KNOW it is.) I can see you being extra picky about your relationships, I would. But, I wouldn't plan on just cutting out D/s totally.

 

[WriterDom]

That would be a real waste Kajira, I think you have the making of a great pyl. Francisco.

I think she is kinda great as she is.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I am honored that so many replies have arrived in this thread in My absense..wonderful well thought out and serious. I regret that I won't be answering each one individually as it would take an entire page with Myself running the entire length!

Of course as in all things there is no absolute right or wrong answer but points of view from the test of time are invaluable.

Unfortunately I see many relationships skid off of the map due to the Dominant...with the step children...shaking their heads in disbelief when they wake up one day to find themselves subless due to either an inability or a lack of desire to give bounderies to their children that would be expected in any relationship. The lack of follow through...whether W/we like to face it or not...is more difficult for many submissives to fathom than it might be in a vanilla relationship.

Communication is the first step but follow through must be the next...if the "parent" is not willing to at least try to maintain consistent boundaries for their children would it not be fair to accept the submissives needs to move out of the D/s relationship gracefully at some point?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think she is kinda great as she is.

I stand corrected.

Francisco.