BDSM and misogyny

[Edith_UK]

How much of this is about then? I understand that women can be Dommes and men subs, but that seems to be the unusual way round.

Sometimes when I read stuff on here, about women talking about their masters, the men in control, men talking about being 'head of the household', women serving them I just wanna do a massive *facepalm*. Then you only need to glance in the BDSM personals to see some proper vile examples of men who blatantly feel threatened by women and want to assert their 'dominance' through a bit of pathetic role play.

How much of this BDSM dynamic is misogyny in disguise?

 

[Netzach]

How much of this is about then? I understand that women can be Dommes and men subs, but that seems to be the unusual way round.

It's not. Just here. And at lifestyle munches and events. I believe that events tend to skew not so much toward Dom men, but toward sub women who make up the majority of the crowd.

If you go onto any site dedicated to people trying to find people to do this stuff with the numbers are more or less even in regard to submissive men and women. Submissive men exist in similar numbers, but are less likely to venture out into a community and more likely to look for like minds online only. [/QUOTE]

Sometimes when I read stuff on here, about women talking about their masters, the men in control, men talking about being 'head of the household', women serving them I just wanna do a massive *facepalm*. Then you only need to glance in the BDSM personals to see some proper vile examples of men who blatantly feel threatened by women and want to assert their 'dominance' through a bit of pathetic role play.

How much of this BDSM dynamic is misogyny in disguise?

A lot. Not all. How much vanilla sex is just misogyny in disguise? I'd say more.

 

[Edith_UK]

I dunno if you can just look at the relative number of male Doms and female subs at events and if it's equal conclude that it's therefore not misogynist. I mean, women brought into that shit for a very, very long time too eh.

In what way do you think vanilla sex misogynous?

 

[Netzach]

I dunno if you can just look at the relative number of male Doms and female subs at events and if it's equal conclude that it's therefore not misogynist. I mean, women brought into that shit for a very, very long time too eh.

In what way do you think vanilla sex misogynous?

Fair enough, I simply mean that the idea that submissive men aren't out there in roughly equal numbers isn't accurate. I think sexually Dominant people are pretty rare. Most people want a break, a chance to follow, someone else to blame some of their taboo-breaking on, etc.

As for vanilla sex? I think it's still absolutely rife with complete confusion, being repackaged and sold to us, that female pleasure is a sex-and-the-city product not an actual concern for anyone - fuck, look at the political climate re: contraception versus viagara in the states. I think most men are completely confused and most discussion of sex is really about female body anxiety - you know, how to get more comfortable with your body which we've just completely trashed in this magazine so you can have sex without having to fake it, which 90 percent of women do, and blah blah.

It's horrible. I'm so glad I'm a freak.

 

[Edith_UK]

It's horrible. I'm so glad I'm a freak.

Oh yer, I see enough misogyny in vanilla sex too. I just wondered if you were thinking about any specifics. It's not like vanilla and 'kinky' or bdsm are separate entities anyway eh, it's all a spectrum.

It's interesting that you think there are equal numbers of male and female submissives though (with the male sub missives just being more hidden).

 

[RedButterflySlut]

Gender equality is such a mess right now, no matter what a woman does she'll be looked down upon in some way for how she acts, what she says or what she does. It's like society expects women to fulfill all roles at once, or else she's flawed in some way.

I think there's a sexual allure in misogyny for some people. It's an exciting taboo that the educated and enlightened aren't supposed to like, I find myself constantly feeling guilty by the things that really turn me on.
I spent a good deal of my life being raised by my grandmother who was a feminist, and very active politically. My earliest memories where of meeting senators and politicians- one senator would take time out of her busy schedule to keep an eye on me while my grandmother organized fundraisers and scholarships for women. She hardly ever spent a day in the kitchen, her life was too devoted to making the change she wanted to see in women's rights.

All that said, misogyny became a very taboo subject. In her household, women where treated as if they had golden vaginas that could do no wrong, and men where ever knuckle-dragging apes. The taboo is what makes it sexy to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has that concept, both male and female.

There's a big backlash against the feminist movement, and it's a scary, scary thing. Paying attention to the media makes me never want to leave my precious nanny state- I'm very happy for the laws that protect women here, and I'm terrified about what's being passed, and even talked about. The fact that they tried to make domestic abuse not a crime says so much. It's almost like women are being turned into marketed products instead of living like people.

Yet being treated like that by the right man makes my libido skyrocket.

 

[Jenneva]

I think there's a sexual allure in misogyny for some people. It's an exciting taboo

It has become taboo for a woman to want to submit to a man. My mom would slap me upside the head and down again if she knew I liked that. She fought for women's rights, and I have, too. That doesn't mean it feels good to sink back into traditional roles in my personal relationships.

I would never call my significant other "master" nor would I submit 24/7. But if I want to in my private time, if it turns me on, willingly, I don't feel it is misogyny.

 

[Edith_UK]

Yer I find it confusing too RedButterfly (and I was a long way removed from being raised by feminists lol, my old man was a proper sexist prick and I'm still finding out about feminism myself really).

I've been finding this curious line in my head, chatting to blokes off of here. A line that goes 'call me names as part of 'sex' and it's kinda horny even if I do wanna spit in your face'. Call me them names in anger or with what I see as genuine disgust and I'll get some cold-fear anger going on.

It's all a bit of a headfuck to be honest

 

[Edith_UK]

It has become taboo for a woman to want to submit to a man. My mom would slap me upside the head and down again if she knew I liked that. She fought for women's rights, and I have, too. That doesn't mean it feels good to sink back into traditional roles in my personal relationships.

I would never call my significant other "master" nor would I submit 24/7. But if I want to in my private time, if it turns me on, willingly, I don't feel it is misogyny.

Oooooh fucking HELL, I proper love your story btw!

 

[Kurokami]

How much of this is about then? I understand that women can be Dommes and men subs, but that seems to be the unusual way round.

Sometimes when I read stuff on here, about women talking about their masters, the men in control, men talking about being 'head of the household', women serving them I just wanna do a massive *facepalm*. Then you only need to glance in the BDSM personals to see some proper vile examples of men who blatantly feel threatened by women and want to assert their 'dominance' through a bit of pathetic role play.

How much of this BDSM dynamic is misogyny in disguise?

You raise an interesting question, and one that's worth discussing, but let me offer the flipside: why do you want to facepalm when hearing some women talking about their Dominants? Actually, I know why: it makes you cringe, and in some cases it does to me, too. But if that's the role that they've chosen (and here I stress the word "chosen") then how is it at all a misogynistic arrangement? Sometimes this does get lost in what we all think of as the "ideal" feminist, but the feminist movement is about choice; about giving women the ability to choose for themselves what they wish to do in an equal society. And that means that being a fulltime submissive is just as much a valid choice as any other, no matter what it makes you feel about the feminist movement. A number of the other posters here have referred to being submissive as somehow backsliding on the feminist cause; I submit to you that true feminism means that you can pick whichever (law-abiding) path you want, without having to feel any societal pressure or guilt over it. If it works for you, and you've chosen it yourself, it's no more misogynistic than any other choice you might make.

Now, are the men in these equations guilty of misogyny? Perhaps, but that's on a case by case basis. We can't automatically credit all male dominants, myself included, with something like that.

Ultimately, there are good men and bad men in every subculture, including vanilla. Women too. It's all about picking the winners.

... Sorry, didn't mean to rant

 

[Edith_UK]

You raise an interesting question, and one that's worth discussing, but let me offer the flipside: why do you want to facepalm when hearing some women talking about their Dominants? Actually, I know why: it makes you cringe, and in some cases it does to me, too. But if that's the role that they've chosen (and here I stress the word "chosen") then how is it at all a misogynistic arrangement? Sometimes this does get lost in what we all think of as the "ideal" feminist, but the feminist movement is about choice; about giving women the ability to choose for themselves what they wish to do in an equal society. And that means that being a fulltime submissive is just as much a valid choice as any other, no matter what it makes you feel about the feminist movement. A number of the other posters here have referred to being submissive as somehow backsliding on the feminist cause; I submit to you that true feminism means that you can pick whichever (law-abiding) path you want, without having to feel any societal pressure or guilt over it. If it works for you, and you've chosen it yourself, it's no more misogynistic than any other choice you might make.

Now, are the men in these equations guilty of misogyny? Perhaps, but that's on a case by case basis. We can't automatically credit all male dominants, myself included, with something like that.

Ultimately, there are good men and bad men in every subculture, including vanilla. Women too. It's all about picking the winners.

... Sorry, didn't mean to rant

Rant away mate, it's all good

So... an argument against what your saying might go like this: some feminists argue that the sex industry is sexist and should be abolished. (I think they're fucking nuts, and they piss me off, but run with me...). They'd argue that just because women choose to work in the sex industry does not mean that the industry as a whole is not sexist. That the pressures, forces, expectations and most importantly economic circumstances that put them choices into context, result from a patriarchal society. No choices are 'free' really, are they


Could the same argument not be made about women who choose to submit, especially 'lifestyle' submissives? (never come across them before here tbh).

 

[ownedsubgal]

Kurokami makes a valid point, however i disagree with him on one key issue: submissiveness is not a "choice" for us all. for some of us this is simply our innate personality, a way we interact in and respond to the world around us from birth. and when you have NOT chosen this, when it is as much an uncontrollable and natural part of you as your eye color, then it's especially offensive when outsiders attempt to paint you (or the One to whom you've given yourself) as silly/ignorant/holding women back/misogynistic.

i am not a feminist. but i strongly believe in a single/unowned woman's right to independence and freedom of choice and power over self. as a slave that does not apply to me however, nor would i ever wish to live such a life. i find it very natural to serve, be owned by and yes even worship a man. i find it very natural to sit at his feet rather than at his side. this is not because i hate my own gender or lack intelligence and knowledge, it is because for me that is simply how life should be.

 

[Netzach]

I'm of two minds on the whole feminist compatibility issue.

Part of me says "well feminism is all about agency and blah and blah" but it starts to melt down when you take your personal agency and beat other women about the head to submit to the patriarchy, like Phyllis Schafly or something like that. Are ALL choices really OK as long as you have a vagina when you make that choice? Aren't some of these choices simply what we have to work with?

I resent the second wave feminist perspective that I have to actually refrain from sex if it doesn't advance the cause. Most of the people who feel like that aren't actually lesbians but political lesbians who will never be TRULY into sex with women to the point where it might get messy and fun. I don't think that my sex life affects the rest of the world to the point where if I chose (or made myself choose) "not men" it would actually accomplish anything of value for anyone. There's something so narcissistic about the whole debate.

I'm comfortable with my sexuality being "bad" from a feminist perspective. It's completely fucked up that I like what I like. I'm the first to say "wow, that's fucked up."

That doesn't mean it's going to change or be reformed. It's just an indicator of how jacked up sex roles really are, but more so how fucked up my family really is, ha! That doesn't mean I have to fix it if it's not inhibiting what I think are much more important ways that I need to function in a society and maybe even help people materially.

Frankly, I think feminism has some bigger fish to fry than "what Netzach does with her pussy" on a global scale. There are a LOT of disenfranchised women in the world fighting the good fight on a subsistence level. Making money happen for them is more important, in my opinion. Not muscling in on cultures, not saving them from themselves, not evangelizing to them some patriarchal poison, just empowering them with money to do what THEY want.

 

[His_pet_slut]

The thing is, misogyny has nothing to do with respect or consent. When I think of misogyny, the prime example that pops into my mind is fundamentalist Christian households that the man is all knowing and the woman is not capable of doing anything other than caring for him and household. Now mind you, I am not saying that is how all fundamentalists feel, but the vast majority I meet do.

Contrast that with a BDSM relationship such as mine. I own my business. I live on my own. I make decisions on a day in and day out basis. I am prominent in my community in several capacities for non-profit and business organizations. My M~ is a business man that is firmly in control. He knows the dichotomy of the facets of my life. He derives great pleasure in knowing I am putty in his hands. He also finds me amusing when I am fired up about something he disagrees with as he likes watching me struggle with remaining respectful with him and yet firm in my convictions. A girl that did nothing but mirror his beliefs and refused to make her own decisions in daily life would bore and annoy him. I enjoy letting him decide what we do when together, order my meals, etc. It is a welcome respite from what I do day in and day out. How is this dynamic misogynistic?

BTW, I marched for equality on Saturday. I believe in equal pay for equal work. I believe a decision about healthcare is a woman's decision, not her employers. I do not believe that all feminists are man hating lesbians. Actually, I know they are not. They are men and women just like me that believe in equality.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Frankly, I think feminism has some bigger fish to fry, on a global scale. There are a LOT of disenfranchised women in the world fighting the good fight on a subsistence level. Making money happen for them is more important, in my opinion.

yes. when i learned about groups of women in the Congo who had been gangraped more times than they could count, most physically disfigured in the process, and many having watched their own children and even babies (infants even) suffer the same, coming together and forming small community businesses in the marketing of sewing and crafts overseas, i had so much pride in my gender that i wanted to throw a parade. i don't get why the typical feminist is not even paying attention to those women, and instead wants to form a witchhunt based on sexual positions and the language people use in their own households.

 

[Netzach]

yes. when i learned about groups of women in the Congo who had been gangraped more times than they could count, most physically disfigured in the process, and many having watched their own children and even babies (infants even) suffer the same, coming together and forming small community businesses in the marketing of sewing and crafts overseas, i had so much pride in my gender that i wanted to throw a parade. i don't get why the typical feminist is not even paying attention to those women, and instead wants to form a witchhunt based on sexual positions and the language people use in their own households.

Me either. Western Feminism has completely lost any sense of priority it ever ever had. We're debating plastic surgery while these people burn.

 

[ShineyShiney]

I don't have anything to add really, I just want to pop in and say I appreciate everyone who has posted in this thread. Thanks for presenting your ideas, questions, and perspectives in rational and enlightening ways.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

As an anarchist, switch, and radical individualist, let me just say that I believe that true liberation lies in doing what you please, not what any community tells you to do. If you're vanilla, fine. If you're Dom, switch, or sub, also fine. It shouldn't matter whether or not you have a cock or pussy between your legs, or for that matter, if your partner (s) does (do). Same goes for poly vs. monogamy. Stick to your guns and be what you want to be. That's a truly liberated woman (or man, in my case).

Anyone else is the tyranny of the collective, whether that collective is the State, the Sisterhood, the Goreans, or the Church.

 

[Jenneva]

Oooooh fucking HELL, I proper love your story btw!

Thank you much!! More to come (no pun intended)

I was watching a doc on the women's movement and much of the "liberation" centered around sex and being free to express our own sexuality and what we wanted. Including being gay, which unfortunately spurred the misconception that feminists=lesbians.

So in that respect, if we express what we want, and have the freedom to follow through with it (whatever that may be), WITH CONSENT, it is not really submissive, but empowering.

 

[rosco rathbone]

My theory on this has always been that, as society marginalises misogyny and male dominance, that people who were once just normals will find their way to BDSM. ( and other subcultural niches like Mormonism, etc).

I've seen plenty of online evidence that this is, indeed, the case.

 

[rosco rathbone]

well said

Gender equality is such a mess right now, no matter what a woman does she'll be looked down upon in some way for how she acts, what she says or what she does. It's like society expects women to fulfill all roles at once, or else she's flawed in some way.

I think there's a sexual allure in misogyny for some people. It's an exciting taboo that the educated and enlightened aren't supposed to like, I find myself constantly feeling guilty by the things that really turn me on.
I spent a good deal of my life being raised by my grandmother who was a feminist, and very active politically. My earliest memories where of meeting senators and politicians- one senator would take time out of her busy schedule to keep an eye on me while my grandmother organized fundraisers and scholarships for women. She hardly ever spent a day in the kitchen, her life was too devoted to making the change she wanted to see in women's rights.

All that said, misogyny became a very taboo subject. In her household, women where treated as if they had golden vaginas that could do no wrong, and men where ever knuckle-dragging apes. The taboo is what makes it sexy to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has that concept, both male and female.

There's a big backlash against the feminist movement, and it's a scary, scary thing. Paying attention to the media makes me never want to leave my precious nanny state- I'm very happy for the laws that protect women here, and I'm terrified about what's being passed, and even talked about. The fact that they tried to make domestic abuse not a crime says so much. It's almost like women are being turned into marketed products instead of living like people.

Yet being treated like that by the right man makes my libido skyrocket.

I was also raised by feminists who put women on a pedestal, and I feel the same way, from a male perspective.

 

[Edith_UK]

i am not a feminist. but i strongly believe in a single/unowned woman's right to independence and freedom of choice and power over self. as a slave that does not apply to me however, nor would i ever wish to live such a life. i find it very natural to serve, be owned by and yes even worship a man. i find it very natural to sit at his feet rather than at his side. this is not because i hate my own gender or lack intelligence and knowledge, it is because for me that is simply how life should be.

When you say 'I am not a feminist' do you mean that you think men are better and more entitled to women to power, money and respect then just cos they are men?

If so, jesus fuckin wept.

 

[Edith_UK]

Me either. Western Feminism has completely lost any sense of priority it ever ever had. We're debating plastic surgery while these people burn.

You think there is gender equality in the West? You think the fight is won?

No way. Women have worse conditions in other countries, absolutely. Does that mean we should go, oh alright then, I'll just put up with things as they are over here? Nah. There's enough of us to stand up in lots of ways and lots of places.

 

[Netzach]

You think there is gender equality in the West? You think the fight is won?

No way. Women have worse conditions in other countries, absolutely. Does that mean we should go, oh alright then, I'll just put up with things as they are over here? Nah. There's enough of us to stand up in lots of ways and lots of places.

No. But I think that concerns about the beauty industry, porn, and general middle class white girl malaise are less important than discussions about contraception, the treatment of women who are imprisoned, the "dignity of work" as Romney puts it when you are poor but not rich, and a whole slough of things that actually kind of matter.

While people comb over the guilt of being a middle class woman hiring childcare, the fact that SCHIP is being cut in multiple states and doesn't even touch the problem of uninsured children is accompanied by the sound of crickets in the mainstream (read middle class) feminist press. Money may not smooth out all inequality, but it sure dampens the sting.

The issues that capture the public imagination are psychic leftovers from Friedan and the decidedly middle class and white mainstream of the second wave. As the middle class actually contracts to nothing and as the demographics of the country change, feminist priorities should too.

Activitsts and feminists often assert the "multiple fronts same war" argument, but it's the important shit that gets backburnered year after year after year. I believe in prioritization. My life is pretty freaking good, garden variety medical community sexism and all that I deal with. I realize that it's not like that for a lot of people.

 

[Edith_UK]

No. But I think that concerns about the beauty industry, porn, and general middle class white girl malaise are less important than discussions about contraception, the treatment of women who are imprisoned, the "dignity of work" as Romney puts it when you are poor but not rich, and a whole slough of things that actually kind of matter.

Activitsts and feminists often assert the "multiple fronts same war" argument, but it's the important shit that gets backburnered year after year after year. I believe in prioritization. My life is pretty freaking good, garden variety medical community sexism and all that I deal with.

Oh yer, I hear you.

I also look round and see very few women in positions of power. And that men earn more. And that women take part time jobs for fuck all money cos we also bring up the kids, care for the neighbours and look after the house. But then I'm working class from the uk, not middle class US.

And I wonder how that all feeds into why the fuck I want to get flogged. And I just have no fucking idea