Barbarians

[cantdog]

Not Nordic; Eastern Germanic. Cool runic-looking script provided by Wulfila when he translated the bible for them. The whole nordic thing comes from one ancient source, the Getica. The ancients believed for a while there that there were no new peoples, just old ones turning up again with new names.

The Aryan thing, I dunno. They're Germans, dude. You can read the text yourself of that Bible. They were Arian Christians, though; maybe that's where you got it. The mixed groups with Gothic dominance that we call the Ostrogoths and Visigoths overran a lot of the Western Roman Empire, right through to north Africa. Arian Christianity, which believes Christ to be a lesser creation somehow than God, and rejects the Trinity, held sway for some little time through a big area. The Catholic Church felt they had to get fairly hardass to combat that. Some of the Arian Christians only fell to Islam, of course.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Wait a minute. We're forgetting a whole bunch here. What about the Suaves? And the Smooves? If there were Goths, you mean there weren't also Gollies? There were Vandals. but no Pests or Nuisances, East and West? No Hoodlums? Wasn't Ireland overrun by tribes of Hooligans in the 3rd century?

And wasn't there a famous battle--the Battle of Ohyeah-Sezzyoo--where the Wiseguys fought the Smartalecs to a draw up by the Zuider Zee?

What about the Snots and the Dradles and the Squeegees?

I'm pretty sure I can trace my heritage back to a Suave ancestor who wore a leopard skin smoking tunic and rode a zebra-skin chariots. I'm still an expert in Suavic culture.

 

[xssve]

I know what Arianism is, the Aryan Plain is in Persia - all Europeans are originally from the Middle East somewhere, the original European moderns, Cro-Magnons were probobly from India, hence Indo-European languages, Vedic in origin.

It's possible that the Cro Magnon interbred with Neandertals, the original original settlers of Central Europe, it's still under dispute, but the high nose bridges, Blond hair, blue eyes are likely adaptations to colder climes, so presumably Blond haired blue eyed morphological traits represent earlier waves of immigration.

Caucasians orginated in Russia, Arabs being the basic archtype - again, probobly Turkic or Persians originally, possibly interbreeding with Nordics to create the European Caucasoid types.

Curly hair is presumably an Africanoid type, a fairly recent morphological type, but it's found all across the Medditeranian, clear up to Scandinavia, as well as across the Pacific islands, so there is clearly a lot of cross pollenizaiton going on. As many of a quarter of Native Americans have a gene marker otherwise found only in isolated populations in Northern Europe.

Germans are a mixed bag, you have small framed dark haired dark eyed Medditeranian types and large framed blond blue eyed Nordic types, and the German tribes were a federation, not neccessarily a "race", kinda like the tribes of Isreal.

This stuff is easier to sort out linguistically than morphologically, but these migrations continue right up until and after the fall of Rome.

Alaric and the Visigoths migrated originally from Persia most likely, and after sacking Rome, settled in Spain, and they don't speak German, they speak a variation of Latin, d'oil I believe.

 

[Recidiva]

Wait a minute. We're forgetting a whole bunch here. What about the Suaves? And the Smooves? If there were Goths, you mean there weren't also Gollies? There were Vandals. but no Pests or Nuisances, East and West? No Hoodlums? Wasn't Ireland overrun by tribes of Hooligans in the 3rd century?

And wasn't there a famous battle--the Battle of Ohyeah-Sezzyoo--where the Wiseguys fought the Smartalecs to a draw up by the Zuider Zee?

What about the Snots and the Dradles and the Squeegees?

I'm pretty sure I can trace my heritage back to a Suave ancestor who wore a leopard skin smoking tunic and rode a zebra-skin chariots. I'm still an expert in Suavic culture.

I am part of the Weisenheimer clan by association.

Twice removed from the Jackanapes.

 

[xssve]

Ah yes, the Sauves, you can tell them by their bling - I think I'm from a Northern branch of the Gollies, the By Gollies.

 

[cloudy]

Wait a minute. We're forgetting a whole bunch here. What about the Suaves? And the Smooves? If there were Goths, you mean there weren't also Gollies? There were Vandals. but no Pests or Nuisances, East and West? No Hoodlums? Wasn't Ireland overrun by tribes of Hooligans in the 3rd century?

And wasn't there a famous battle--the Battle of Ohyeah-Sezzyoo--where the Wiseguys fought the Smartalecs to a draw up by the Zuider Zee?

What about the Snots and the Dradles and the Squeegees?

I'm pretty sure I can trace my heritage back to a Suave ancestor who wore a leopard skin smoking tunic and rode a zebra-skin chariots. I'm still an expert in Suavic culture.

You have some Smoove in you though.

 

[cantdog]

Well, when I say Germans, I mean linguistically German. What the hell, if it's easier to sort out linguistically, go with it. I don't care much about race; it's culture that makes a people a people.

You have to remember what happened to the Visigoths after the Huns drove 'em out of their homes. They were resettled by the Romans, who schlepped them around from pillar to post as successive authorities came up with a new idea, and they weren't treated like citizens by a long chalk.

The whole gang of them rallied to a succession of leaders, but not all of 'em were Goths, even though they were all Arian Christians. Once they got organized the first time, they sought a fairer deal, but it didn't last because the Romans didn't mean it.

Like a snowball, they gathered new clans and groups in with 'em. By this time, by the time they became a conquering force, they'd mostly been living in contact with Rome one way or another for a couple generations. They were subject peoples, and the language they had in common was the Latin of their oppressors. Ulfilas contacted a pagan people who still spoke their own language, and that language was clearly Germanic. But Ulfilas belongs to an era before the time when the Goths got together to kick ass.

 

[xssve]

True, the Visigoths didn't arrive overnight, none of them did. The isolationist paradigm is essentially Biblical, and gained prominence in medievalist Europe - there's another Twenty-Five thousand years or so of modern history before that, and people got around.

The Visigoths might have come over with Hannibal or something, plenty of time to pick up the local lingo.

 

[cantdog]

It sure is weird talking to you about this. Hannibal?



As far as I know, there's one modern people who claim they are the Phoenicians, and that's the Lebanese.

Aryan is geographical in one sense, and means "of Iran", but linguistically, your Indo-Aryan thing relates to deep relationships among languages, and pretty far back in time. In the meantime, Arian Christians are named for Arius who was the theologian who proposed the ideas. Just the dude's name, in other words. Neither linguistic nor geographic, just his name. Do a quick google with "Arian" and "Nicene" among the search terms and I bet you'll get a handle.

 

[xssve]

Languages are carried by people - Arianism is of little or no issue here.

Hannibal was Carthegenian, a Phonecian colony (the Philistines of the Bible), and Phonecia was conquered by the Persians 500 years before Rabbi Yeshua was born.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Aryan is geographical in one sense, and means "of Iran", but linguistically, your Indo-Aryan thing relates to deep relationships among languages, and pretty far back in time. In the meantime, Arian Christians are named for Arius who was the theologian who proposed the ideas. Just the dude's name, in other words. Neither linguistic nor geographic, just his name. Do a quick google with "Arian" and "Nicene" among the search terms and I bet you'll get a handle.

Cant--

Are you sure that Aryan the race and Arius the heretic are the same? (he of the homoiotic/homootic controversy. Whatever it was. The Nicene creed brouhaha)

Arius was a theologian and the leader of those who believed that Jesus was not of the same substance of the father and was therefore not co-eternal but had to have been created and was therefore inferior to the Father. This view was pronounced heretical at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD and Arius was excommunicated and banished along with his followers.

I don't see how this gave rise to "Aryan" as a racial or ethnic appellation.

 

[xssve]

Aryan refers to the Aryan Plain, in Persia. The Aryans had a run from about 500 BC, extended their reach well into Eurasia, almost overunning Eastern Europe a couple of times.

It referred originally to the proto-Indo-Europeans, or Indo-Iranians, but eventually came to be applied to their European descendents.

Point being, all of this is going on before Jesus, thus, well before Arianism became an issue to anybody.

 

[cantdog]

Cant--

Are you sure that Aryan the race and Arius the heretic are the same? (he of the homoiotic/homootic controversy. Whatever it was. The Nicene creed brouhaha)

Arius was a theologian and the leader of those who believed that Jesus was not of the same substance of the father and was therefore not co-eternal but had to have been created and was therefore inferior to the Father. This view was pronounced heretical at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD and Arius was excommunicated and banished along with his followers.

I don't see how this gave rise to "Aryan" as a racial or ethnic appellation.

Well, exactly. There's no relation between the two except a coincidental one. That's what I was saying.

Back when the Goths were a power in their own land, before the Huns showed up, they were hanging out in like Ukraine and Rumania. A fragment of the Goths came west and that's how the Romans found out there was such a thing as a Hun, from the stories they told. The Goths, and this is the group that formed the nucleus of the Visigoths, were in dire need of a place to set up shop. The Romans didn't even offer them foederati status, and things went downhill from there for them. They went for slaves, they were installed as a buffer, the next emperors all had another keen idea what to do to em next.

The Ostrogoths were another group, and their leaders went Nicene pretty early. Nicene Germans like the Ostogoths, Burgunders, and so on got the support of the Romans as against the Arian groups. The Franks were Nicene too, but they came fresh from the forest as pagans, and their initial conversion was Nicene. Most Germans which were Christians at all, in this time, had been contacted a century or so before by Arian missionaries and envoys. Ulfilas himself was a Goth who got religion and was sent by Constantius II to spread the word among his folk. But after Constantius's time, the Nicenes got the upper hand, and Arians were heretical. Too late for most of the eastern Germans, though.

None of it has anything to do with Aryan, though.

 

[xssve]

It means something when you visualize the Germans not as a homogenous people, or race, but as a loose collection of Federated tribes, each tribe with possibly wildly different origins - They had a hand in inventing the modern democratic constitutional republic, oddly, and ironically enough.

i.e., it's why there a difference between Goths and Visigoths, or Visgoths and Ostrogoths, etc., re: the OP.

 

[cantdog]

Personally, I don't find the Arian ideas themselves very weird. They stand to reason, in a way. The stuff God did, you know, the Father, parting the Red Sea, sending down fire and brimstone, tumbling the walls, sending the plagues-- that's all pretty hardcore shit. Jesus is attributed some supernatural stuff, but he sure kept it light. Water to wine, straightening a leg, clearing up a case of leprosy-- pretty small potatoes, really. To top it off, he's goin, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" Doesn't sound like a being who was coterminous with the Infinite, not if he was conscious of it.

But the Arian/Nicene thing lasted centuries and caused a whole lot of grief. I think it's largely due to that struggle that the Trinity idea became so hardline central to the Catholic church.

 

[xssve]

Deification is an Oriental disease, brought back by Ceasar from Egypt, it's why they killed him - too late.

 

[Liar]

No. A pike is something you use to get someone off their horse.

Well, I guess you could get someone off a horse with this.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e394/mi_liar/apike.jpg

 

[cantdog]

They are beautiful great fierce fish.

 

[cantdog]

Deification is an Oriental disease, brought back by Ceasar from Egypt, it's why they killed him - too late.

Not far off, man. Check out Campbell.

 

[rgraham666]

Deification is an Oriental disease, brought back by Ceasar from Egypt, it's why they killed him - too late.

We still suffer from that problem today. Sigh.

 

[xssve]

Yeah, it's all one big psychodrama.

Christianity sort of served as an innoculation, Emperors went from being gods to servants of god, but that's proved to be almost as bad.

Nothing like being a god to feed your Narcissistic/psychopathic urges, unless it's being gods "favorite".

 

[shereads]

So about Justinian's Flea. What's it about?

Think "Sailing to Byzantium" plus "The Hot Zone."

Plot summary: The Eastern Roman Empire withstands barbarian hordes, rioting chariot-race fans (early NASCAR), and rude Vandals, only to be brought low by a flea-borne pandemic that causes half of everybody in the known world to die of painful boils and swollen groins.

Should anyone care?

Absolutely! Justinian's empress is a former prostitute and orgy hostess whose daddy is a professional bear-baiter (WWF with bears). To make Theodora his First Lady, Justinian writes a law allowing "repentant actresses" to marry into the aristocracy.

Heehee.

http://aycu03.webshots.com/image/31322/2001561826463484146_rs.jpg

Justinian's Flea at amazon.com