Back to writing and away from scratching each others eyes out

[BigTexan]

As I said earlier, I'm taking a Creative Writing class and although we've just met twice it has been a lot of fun so far.

Last class we read each other's poetry and talked about how to write a poem and what exactly poetry was.

The teacher didn't have a definition of poetry, but we talked about it for a long time. It was an interesting conversation.

One thing that came out of talking about poetry was the use of concrete images. Our teacher likes it better when poems say things like "yellow tuilips budding" instead of non-concrete things like "Confusion stirs"

I've spent some time thinking about this. I think that is true for all writing, including erotica. To me it means "show the detail."

Don't tell me "She loved sex." Show me the details of her enjoying having sex and wanting it again and again.

What do you think? Is more detail, when done properly, better? And I'm not talking about statistics here but good storytelling with detail. Are concrete images better than amorphous feelings?

BigTexan

 

[Chicklet]

One author on lit, a friend of mine, is a Journalist. I can tell her background when I read her stories. They aren't completely void of detail, but you can see that she's used the minimal words in her story to keep it exciting but to the point. Still excellent, but VERY different than my own work.

I like detail, personally. The thing that excites me the most is three or four paragraphs describing a knot in bondage, down to the remotest detail. Descriptions of conflicting emotions, beads of sweat trickling betweet thighs, things like that.

Chicklet

 

[jfinn]

I agree completely. Show don't tell. It's always a more interesting way to go. When I see a story that just states things, I have a tendancy to think the author is either lazy or unskilled. this is especially true with erotica. An author here, is trying to sell a fantasy, to pull someone into a mindset where they can connect emotionally to the characters. That doesn't happen if you use a description like "I thought he was really sexy." But if you were to write, "He was the kind of guy that made you think of silk sheets and long, slow kisses that tasted of chocolate and good bourban." You've created an image that your reader can relate to. The first is reporting, the second is fiction.

Jayne

 

[dr_mabeuse]

"Conceret imagery" is one of the things that's carved on the Shrine to Fiction up in writers' heaven. Seriously, it's one of the first thing you learn. In fact, you can say that the whole art of story telling consists of decding which concrete images to use and which to discard.

A story without solid detail resembles a fairy tale in sound and import. In fact, that's one of the signs of a fairy tale. Concrete detail also seems largely confined to written work. You don't get it so much in oral storytelling. And of course, drama & movies consists of nothing but concrete detail, supplied by the actors and director.

It could be that the use of concrete imagery pulls us into the story by making us figure out what the gestures and events really mean ourselves. Why is she looking at him wide-eyed? Why did he kick the dog? Why are her fingers shaking as she unbuttons her blouse? Okay: she's surprised, he's angry, she's nervous. Which grabs you more? Which means more: he thought the joke was very funny? Or he laughed so hard he farted?

There's such a thing as too much concrete in the mix though. In backstory or time-fillers, you want to avoid it, because detail is one of the ways the author tells us that a moment or event is important. I've seen stories where the author got carried away with detail and they're just exhausting if not impossible to read.

You might have just gotten your money's worth out of that writing course, Tex.

---dr.M.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

When I was in an author's class, our teacher summed up that very same thing, Big Texan, by the phrase "Don't tell them - Show them!"

 

[karmadog]

In fact, you can say that the whole art of story telling consists of decding which concrete images to use and which to discard.

Way to sum it up, doc!

 

[pop_54]

Hi all

Not being an author in truth, and never having taken any classes or to be honest until last year any real interest in writing I'm probably not really qualified to answer here.
But hey I always say too much, and that about sums up my stories sometimes.
I ramble on building a description, forgetting to keep my sentences brief, chucking a coma in if I stop to breath.
I lose track of all sensible grammar.
Then I sit and look at it all later and think what a load of shit, but I post it or whatever anyway, I enjoyed writing it, it gave me a bone on thinking about the subject matter I just hope it will do the same for someone else.

I agree it is up to you the author to decide how you are happy with your story.
A good slow and meticulous build up or description is nice, it can be good practice depending on the tale and who it's aimed at.
That's when we come to deciding what to put in and what not to, if you are writing for your enjoyment, it's like sex you want it to last.
If you are writing for the average porn story reader best consider premature ejaculation, or they just won't finish it before they get bored.

pops..............

 

[NoJo]

When people say "show, don't tell", they mean feelings. There's more to stories than feelings.

Chicklet, I don't think detail or lack of detail is the issue. Some really popular stories hava a lot of detailed description.

The point is, 'feeling' words, like 'anger', 'horny', 'bored' are pretty crude compared with the subtle stuff is really going inside us. Better to say that 'A vein started pulsing on his forehead', or 'She drummed her fingers on the table and looked at her watch' than say he was enraged, or she was bored.

Anyhow, they're not rules, they're guidelines, to step over if you want (and know that you are stepping over them).

Interesting point there, Dr M, about oral vs writing. I'm trying to figure it out... I can't say I've done a lot of oral. I'm really interested in fairy tales -- I tried writing an erotic one, but never finished it.

 

[Un-registered]

... I've seen stories where the author got carried away with detail and they're just exhausting if not impossible to read ...

The only rule is that there are no rules.

Charles Dickens is generally held to be one of the great writers of all time in the English language. He has 44 pages at one point describing an inn sign! In another place he describes a person perfectly in four words when he says: There stood Mrs.Feziwig, one vast substantial smile (my italics). Can't you see her? I know I can.

 

[Natural Born Eros]

Once again, I'm humbled by the range and depth of knowledge of the fine authors here at Lit. I've never done a writing class, never even read a book on style. I'm told I have the ability to pick up techniques as I go along, but I'm never totally convinced what I'm doing is "right." So let me bring a question to the forum.

I often try to demonstrate a character's habits by showing, then telling;

"She cleared her throat, loudly. I knew she only did that when she was truly bored."

Is that still telling? Is it boring? I certainly don't think it is redundant, since throat-cleaning is not universally a sign of boredom. I prostrate myself before those "in the know."

Cheers,

Eros

 

[BigTexan]

NBE,

Well, in my opinion, You are not really telling that she was bored. You are telling that the narrator thought she was bored. And you're right, it's not really repetitive since they are two seperate things.

An example where you would be being repetitive would be

"She yawned and glanced down at her watch. I knew she only did that when she was truly bored."

This would be repetitive since yawning and glancing at her watch are sure giveaways she was bored.

Anyways, this is my opinion.

BigTexan

 

[Guest]

what is obvious to you?

I struggle with "what is obvious".

In my last story I felt that several things were obvious... I think it is the estrogen/testosterone gulf. Feedback from women indicated that they "got" the things I tried to show, while many men said "where was the _______".

There are also generational biases... Older guys said, "Exactly!" regarding some emotional turning points, whereas younger guys said, "That wasn't realistic".

I think that audience considerations are important when deciding how much explanation is necessary when showing...

Great topic, BT.

b

 

[Dirt Man]

Poetry vs Short Stories

If you haven't tried to write poetry, you have no idea how hard it is to write, and Write well. As a poet I am of a mind to be as brief as humanly possible, and in such a fashion that the reader walks the path with me in full comprehension of what is going on without being cliche. To do it, I pretend I am a camera, and use picture words, similies, and metaphores. In poetry I am catching a moment in time very much like when one takes a snapshot, or paints a picture. Show not tell.

As a short story, and novel writer I have the leisure, and word capacity to film a movie with my words, paragraphs, chapters, etc., and capture hours days, months, and even years with a great deal of detail. Something Jean Auel does well, and expansively in her Clan of the Cave Bear series. For showing feelings I tend to use dialog, and discriptive actions to set the mood of that moment. But again I am basically letting the reader walk by my side so to speak, pointing out the view as it were in some detail such that they feel pulled right into the story with the characters. Showing, not telling in any writing form is always best.

Details are a mixed bag for every author, and all of the good authors are constantly breaking the rules to make their tale that much more interesting for their readers. One thing I've learned writing poetry is to make the details as short, and as evocative as posible.

"He cried out like a rhino on the charge who steps on his own testicles."

The trick is to not lose the readers in the first place. You can piss them off, bring a tear, make them smile, or laugh, nod their head, etc. etc. etc., but you can't neglect them. If you do, they will neglect to come back, and won't.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man