Ayn Rand & Robert Heinlein

amicus

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Ayn Rand & Robert Heinlein


My daughter emailed me yesterday: “Dad, tell me some books to read, I need something to think about…”

No, I didn’t give her Rand and Heinlein, nor even Hemingway or Steinbeck, instead, I suggested Ann McCaffrey, “The Rowan” & “Pern” series, Wilbur Smith and Nevil Shute Norway, perhaps seventy five volumes between them that I have read; should keep her reading for a while.

But somehow, her inquiry touched off a perusal in my mind of the writers that had most influenced my reading over a half century of time and I decided on Rand and Heinlein as the most likely culprits.

For those of you who hate Ayn Rand because your high school teachers and college teachers told you to and have never read her, may I suggest, just for the hell of it, that you read Atlas Shrugged?

When I first read Atlas, well over a thousand pages, I was thrilled to meet the leading characters in the novel, Dagney, Hank and Francisco, as young people and follow their growth and maturation through the pages of the novel, fascinating and greatly impressed that such people ‘could and ought to’ exist.

As I was young, barely eighteen, when I first read it, young and impressionable, I struggled to follow the motivations of the characterization of the ‘good guys and the bad guys’, so easy to determine in my Superman comics, or Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, like I said, young and dumb.

But I could not put it down; I stayed up two whole days and nights at my much slower reading speed then and read the whole damned thing in one sitting, with much coffee and cigarettes, aboard the USS Greer County, underway in the Pacific.

I was never quite the same afterwards.

Heinlein is a different story. If I was intellectually challenged by John Galt, my masculine ego was massaged by Heinlein.

I think it was Lazarus Long, in “Time enough for Love”, a man who lived 2500 years, that kept me smiling throughout the book. Heinlein wrote characters that were a, ‘man’s man’, a capable, strong, competent, moral and mean son-of-a-bitch, that would protect your back in a fight and seduce your wife if you turned your head. I liked his characters.

So, yes, were I to be asked to name the two most influential writers I have read, it would be Rand and Heinlein.


Amicus, (I am on point and you Pussies better keep up!)
 
Heinlein is a big influence for me as well, although our reasons are not entirely the same.
 
Belegon said:
Heinlein is a big influence for me as well, although our reasons are not entirely the same.

~~~

"Stranger in a Strange Land" Grok?

smiles...


Amicus...
 
"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house."

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

"$100 place at interest, compounded quarterly for 200 years will increase to more than $100,000,000- by which time it will be worth nothing."

"All men are created unequal."

"Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win."

"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." (a/k/a "TANSTAAFL")

"An elephant: A mouse built to government specifications."

"You live and you learn. Or you don't live long."

"Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy."

"The greatest productive force is human selfishness."

"Natural laws have no pity."

"A committee is a life form with six or more legs and no brains."

 
I wrote down both books and their authors, do you think a 17 yr old know it all would get something out of either or both books?

He loves to read, so long as it's something that interests him. He has read all Dan Brown's books, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, the biography of Einstein as well as others. There usually has to be something different about the book that makes him want to read it.
I think he is beyond his years when it comes to reading, so anything pretty much goes. Doesn't matter what the content really, however, when he googled S&M the other day, he wasn't too impressed! lol ( I made a joke, he asked what it was, I said I wasn't discussing it any further, he said, fine Ill google it! He did!)

If you have any other ideas...please share!
C
 

.............and I will add Mencken to the list of required reading.

Simply put, if you haven't read Mencken, you haven't lived.


 
"Always put your weapons and clothing where you can find them in the dark"

"Always store beer in a dark place"

"They really do look like orchids, don't they"

"Rub Her Feet!"

"Moderation is for monks. To enjoy life take big Bites."





Reading Stranger in a Strange Land back to back with Anvil of God by Greg Bear
Changed my life irrevocably. I cried for days after reading Stranger and then raged for days with Anvil...
And Yeah - I grok - (I say that and people look at me like I have three heads LOL)

But the two most influential writers in my life are Robert Heinelein and Anne McCaffrey followed closely by J.R.R. Tolkien, Stephen R. Donaldson and Mercedes Lackey....

But one pearl - that I recommend EVERYONE read is "Childhoods End" by Isaac Asnimov (sp.)

Happy reading.
 
AMICUS

The book that totally fucked me up forever is Edward de Bono's LATERAL THINKING. And his workbook, A FIVE DAY COURSE IN THINKING.

Ayn Rand is a favorite.

The book, EXCAVATING JESUS, had a huge impact on me. I was a devout Christian when I bought the book, and not a Christian when I finished reading it.
 
I adore Heinlein and McCaffrey.

I'm happily accompanied by Valentine Michael Smith and Menolly wherever I go.
 
Recidiva said:
I adore Heinlein and McCaffrey.

I'm happily accompanied by Valentine Michael Smith and Menolly wherever I go.

*nods*

Master Robinton ... and Lessa. (It's no coincidence that "Lessa" and "Alessia" are so similar.)
 
SENSUALCEALY

I just started reading GALILEO'S REVENGE last night. It's a keeper. It's a treatise of how lawyers fuck us, beginning with the witch trials.

But if you wanna screw your kid up forever, and guarantee he never has any friends or decent employment, get him a copy of LATERAL THINKING. On the other-hand, solitude and poverty are a fair price to pay for the benefits in the book.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
The book that totally fucked me up forever is Edward de Bono's LATERAL THINKING. And his workbook, A FIVE DAY COURSE IN THINKING.
Why, please explain...
The book, EXCAVATING JESUS, had a huge impact on me. I was a devout Christian when I bought the book, and not a Christian when I finished reading it.
Why?

Just inquiring...
C
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
SENSUALCEALY

I just started reading GALILEO'S REVENGE last night. It's a keeper. It's a treatise of how lawyers fuck us, beginning with the witch trials.

But if you wanna screw your kid up forever, and guarantee he never has any friends or decent employment, get him a copy of LATERAL THINKING. On the other-hand, solitude and poverty are a fair price to pay for the benefits in the book.

Hmmm, think I may google this book! Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas wasn't the best book from what I hear, I think it has taught him everything he needs to know about drugs and alcohol! lol (his dad read it first and said it was okay for him to read!)
C
 
SensualCealy said:
I wrote down both books and their authors, do you think a 17 yr old know it all would get something out of either or both books?

He loves to read, so long as it's something that interests him. He has read all Dan Brown's books, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, the biography of Einstein as well as others. There usually has to be something different about the book that makes him want to read it.
I think he is beyond his years when it comes to reading, so anything pretty much goes. Doesn't matter what the content really, however, when he googled S&M the other day, he wasn't too impressed! lol ( I made a joke, he asked what it was, I said I wasn't discussing it any further, he said, fine Ill google it! He did!)

If you have any other ideas...please share!
C
He will loooooove Heinlein, and either be invigorated or bored by Rand. Unless they are alread died-in-the-wool iterations of the beliefs she excoriates most young people who read Rand get excited by worldview runs counter all the conventional dogma they have been taught since, "Johnny has a right to play with your toys." (Yes Virginia, it was OK for you to think, "Screw Johnny!" Sorry mom, but a better correct formulation is, "It may be in your interest to let Johnny play, because you may want him to let you play with his toys sometime.")

For those of you who hate Ayn Rand because your high school teachers and college teachers told you to and have never read her, may I suggest, just for the hell of it, that you read Atlas Shrugged?
Hmmm - I'm not sure Atlas is where I would begin, but not sure it's not, either. It either - er, grabs them by the balls - or puts them to sleep. I was left gasping when I finally got around to it in my late 30s, it having been 'on the list' since about age 11. As is not uncommon (see NYT article in my next post) it confirmed most of what I already believed (reinforced by years of Heinlein :D ) but had not concretized in such explicit terms.

But lets be honest - it's not a great novel, as such. The Fountainhead is a better novel, and although narrower We the Living is also.
 
SENSUALCEALY

I discovered LATERAL THINKING when I was 18-19. It's about creative thinking. It's about REALLY having an open mind and considering all the possibilities. It's about looking at things in different ways. It's about seeing things for what they are. Urine can be hydraulic fluid. Sand can be a viscous liquid.

But once you go down that road, viz., having an open mind, youre a leper.
 
Nice NYT story on Atlas Shrugged's influence

excerts from "Ayn Rand’s Literature of Capitalism"
NYT Business, 9/15/07
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/15/b...791&ex=1347508800&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

One of the most influential business books ever written is a 1,200-page novel published 50 years ago, on Oct. 12, 1957. It is still drawing readers; it ranks 388th on Amazon.com’s best-seller list. (“Winning,” by John F. Welch Jr., at a breezy 384 pages, is No. 1,431.) Note - up in the 50s this week - RA

The book is “Atlas Shrugged,” Ayn Rand’s glorification of the right of individuals to live entirely for their own interest.

For years, Rand’s message was attacked by intellectuals whom her circle labeled “do-gooders,” who argued that individuals should also work in the service of others. Her book was dismissed as an homage to greed. Gore Vidal described its philosophy as “nearly perfect in its immorality.”

But the book attracted a coterie of fans, some of them top corporate executives, who dared not speak of its impact except in private. When they read the book, often as college students, they now say, it gave form and substance to their inchoate thoughts, showing there is no conflict between private ambition and public benefit.

“I know from talking to a lot of Fortune 500 C.E.O.’s that ‘Atlas Shrugged’ has had a significant effect on their business decisions, even if they don’t agree with all of Ayn Rand’s ideas,” said John A. Allison, the chief executive of BB&T, one of the largest banks in the United States.

“It offers something other books don’t: the principles that apply to business and to life in general. I would call it complete,” he said.

. . . Rand’s free-market philosophy was hard won. She was born in 1905 in Russia. Her life changed overnight when the Bolsheviks broke into her father’s pharmacy and declared his livelihood the property of the state. She fled the Soviet Union in 1926 and arrived later that year in Hollywood, where she peered through a gate at the set where the director Cecil B. DeMille was filming a silent movie, “King of Kings.”

He offered her a ride to the set, then a job as an extra on the film and later a position as a junior screenwriter. She sold several screenplays and intermittently wrote novels that were commercial failures, until 1943, when fans of “The Fountainhead” began a word-of-mouth campaign that helped sales immensely.

Rand called “Atlas” a mystery, “not about the murder of man’s body, but about the murder — and rebirth — of man’s spirit.” It begins in a time of recession. To save the economy, the hero, John Galt, calls for a strike against government interference. Factories, farms and shops shut down. Riots break out as food becomes scarce.

Rand said she “set out to show how desperately the world needs prime movers and how viciously it treats them” and to portray “what happens to a world without them.”

The book was released to terrible reviews. Critics faulted its length, its philosophy and its literary ambitions. Both conservatives and liberals were unstinting in disparaging the book; the right saw promotion of godlessness, and the left saw a message of “greed is good.” Rand is said to have cried every day as the reviews came out.

. . . "She wasn’t a nice person, ” said Darla Moore, vice president of the private investment firm Rainwater Inc. “But what a gift she’s given us.”

Ms. Moore, a benefactor of the University of South Carolina, spoke of her debt to Rand in 1998, when the business school at the university was named in Ms. Moore’s honor. “As a woman and a Southerner,” she said, “I thrived on Rand’s message that only quality work counted, not who you are.”

Alan GreenspanRand’s idea of “the virtue of selfishness,” Ms. Moore said, “is a harsh phrase for the Buddhist idea that you have to take care of yourself.”

Some business leaders might be unsettled by the idea that the only thing members of the leadership class have in common is their success. James M. Kilts, who led turnarounds at Gillette, Nabisco and Kraft, said he encountered “Atlas” at “a time in college life when everybody was a nihilist, anti-establishment, and a collectivist.” He found her writing reassuring because it made success seem rational.

“Rand believed that there is right and wrong,” he said, “that excellence should be your goal.”

John P. Stack is one business executive who has taken Rand’s ideas to heart. He was chief executive of Springfield Remanufacturing Company, a retooler of tractor engines in Springfield, Mo., when its parent company, International Harvester, divested itself of the firm in the recession of 1982, the year Rand died.

Having lost his sole customer in a struggling Rust Belt city, Mr. Stack says, he took action like a hero out of “Atlas.” He created an “open book” company in which employees were transparently working in their own interest.

Mr. Stack says that he assigned every job a bottom line value and that every salary, including his own, was posted on a company ticker daily. Workplaces, he said, are notoriously undemocratic, emotionally charged and political.

Mr. Stack says his free market replaced all that with rational behavior. A machinist knew exactly what his working hour contributed to the bottom line, and therefore the cost of slacking off. This, Mr. Stack said, was a manifestation of the philosophy of objectivism in “Atlas”: people guided by reason and self-interest.

“There is something in your inner self that Rand draws out,” Mr. Stack said. “You want to be a hero, you want to be right, but by the same token you have to question yourself, though you must not listen to interference thrown at you by the distracters. The lawyers told me not to open the books and share equity.” He said he defied them. “ ‘Atlas’ helped me pursue this idiot dream that became SRC.”

more at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/15/b...791&ex=1347508800&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
 
Rand's writing, like Thoreau's, Emerson's, a lot of Twain's and Whitman's, college football and ranch dressing, is one of those things made rather more of in the US than elsewhere. That said, one of my clearest undergraduate memories is of sitting under a tree in my (US) college quad, reading Atlas on a day when most of my friends had gone home for Thanksgiving. Maybe she works better in a non-New-England, non-liberal-arts setting...

I was relatively unmoved by her writing, although at that age I already considered myself part of the (European branch of the) choir to which she was preaching. I didn't put a finger on why until years later when I read a nasty quote about Shaw (which I now can't find), commenting that his characters never seemed real - they were just animated political points of view. At least with Shaw, you get a master stylist at work. With Rand, not so much...

Heinlein I enjoyed enormously when I was 15 or so. I picked up a collection of his short stories and essays a year ago (Expanded Universe, I think?) and just couldn't see what I saw in him then, except maybe the praise he reserves for the very bright. Too many bristlingly self-reliant ubermensches (and I'm using that word deliberately); too many sassy, pneumatic femme fatales... I think I just find it impossible to relate to characters (and authors) that free from self-doubt.

That said, I strongly suspect most of the reading world, when asked to name a favourite/most influential author, does considerably worse than Rand and Heinlein... Mine were probably Durrell, Pound and Waugh but that's the sort of candy-ass thinking you get from Europeans...

Regards,
H
 
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HANDPRINTS

My template for reality is a planet with one inhabitant; me. Necessity would force me to be totally self-reliant. There is no check in the mail every month.

Two people offers the possibility for cooperation and exploitation and the mind fucking we call civilization.
 
Early on I read a lot of Asimov, Heinlein, Frank Herbert (until the Dune novels got too wormy and bloated) and a wide range of other sci-fi authors, among other things.
 
jomar said:
Early on I read a lot of Asimov, Heinlein, Frank Herbert (until the Dune novels got too wormy and bloated) and a wide range of other sci-fi authors, among other things.

I loved Dune.

Until I finally looked up, thought "Hey, I don't care any more" and went for a walk.

Too much in the way of machinations, too little in the way of me giving a damn ultimately.

But fun while they lasted.
 
jomar said:
Early on I read a lot of Asimov, Heinlein, Frank Herbert (until the Dune novels got too wormy and bloated) and a wide range of other sci-fi authors, among other things.

You might find the Brian Herbert continuations entertaining. They're far less bloated. :)
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
HANDPRINTS

My template for reality is a planet with one inhabitant; me. Necessity would force me to be totally self-reliant. There is no check in the mail every month.

Two people offers the possibility for cooperation and exploitation and the mind fucking we call civilization.

You know, that's one of the best summaries of the philosophy underpinning post-1990 American foreign policy that I've ever heard...

H
 
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