Authors' (and editors') Disrespect of Readers

[tootallday]

It seems that it may be a lack of respect by both authors and editors which enables most of them to not submit stories which represent their best efforts.

I'm not referring as much to minor errors in punctuation, as I am to misspelled words which, in some cases, completely alter the meaning of the sentence; and jumbled, non-sensical sentences with no discernable subject or verb.

As I scan through the titles and sub-titles on the New Stories site, I automatically skip those which contain spelling errors, duplicate words, etc. If the author doesn't even respect the readers enough to even show a little care in, what is essentially, the tease to attract the reader, then why should I waste my time. I'll display an example from today's list:

"Be Careful What You Wish For Ch. 03 - Smith and Friday take a walk and run run into problems.
Submitted by mjbarbag (Erotic Couplings) 01/17/11"

This is simply careless, but if you can do it on your tease, you have probably been at least as careless in the story itself.

Why should I waste my time?

 

[PacoFear]

Toot,

I agree that there is some shoddy work that gets posted on Literotica, but your criticism of the editors here is misplaced. Editing is voluntary. Authors are free to post stories that haven't been reviewed by anyone here. The folks that hang out on the Editor's Forum are volunteers who offer their help to authors that ask for it.

-Paco

 

[_Lynn_]

It seems that it may be a lack of respect by both authors and editors which enables most of them to not submit stories which represent their best efforts.

And what if those stories are that person's best effort? Not everyone has the same level of education or experience. And not everyone has the same standards either.

Some of those authors might struggle with grammar or punctuation and not realize they can come to the EF to search for an editor.

Paco already pointed out the volunteer side of the EF so I won't go into it.

 

[sr71plt]

There isn't anyone who doesn't make a mistake or two. It's hardly disrespect to the reader when they do (just make an occasional one).

Editors don't submit either titles or subtitles. The author has to do that him/herself.

And even in the case of the author, I'm not sure you are able to make changes in a title or slug in a preview.

In addition, the mixup of such words as hear/here, too/two/to, and its/it's are the hardest for either an author or an editor to see. (The mind "assumes" so much that isn't really there when either an author or editor are doing a read.)

You'd probably enjoy your reads better by concentrating on the context unless the mistakes (or at least the ones you think are mistakes) are really intrusive.

 

[tootallday]

If the editors are offering help, then they should do the job properly. Why else would they make the offer?

 

[tootallday]

There isn't anyone who doesn't make a mistake or two. It's hardly disrespect to the reader when they do (just make an occasional one).

Editors don't submit either titles or subtitles. The author has to do that him/herself.

And even in the case of the author, I'm not sure you are able to make changes in a title or slug in a preview.

In addition, the mixup of such words as hear/here, too/two/to, and its/it's are the hardest for either an author or an editor to see. (The mind "assumes" so much that isn't really there when either an author or editor are doing a read.)

You'd probably enjoy your reads better by concentrating on the context unless the mistakes (or at least the ones you think are mistakes) are really intrusive.

When I perceive what I think is an error, I research it if there's any doubt in my mind. Things like "Him and I went to the store..." and "they ran the gammit of problems before ..." No excuse. I agree that an author can easily miss the types of errors (and more) that you described; but the editors shouldn't. There is a plethora of misplaced apostrophes and commas out there. Commas, in particular, encourage the reader to pause. When they're placed properly, the pause feels natural. But when, they are, misplaced it causes the natural, flow of reading to hiccup, unnaturally thereby making the read uncomfortable. I am not trying to disparage the authors' attempts (the plots of many of the stories are very well conceived and presented), but those editors should not only respect the readers, but the original author as well.

 

[_Lynn_]

When I perceive what I think is an error, I research it if there's any doubt in my mind. Things like "Him and I went to the store..." and "they ran the gammit of problems before ..." No excuse. I agree that an author can easily miss the types of errors (and more) that you described; but the editors shouldn't. There is a plethora of misplaced apostrophes and commas out there. Commas, in particular, encourage the reader to pause. When they're placed properly, the pause feels natural. But when, they are, misplaced it causes the natural, flow of reading to hiccup, unnaturally thereby making the read uncomfortable. I am not trying to disparage the authors' attempts (the plots of many of the stories are very well conceived and presented), but those editors should not only respect the readers, but the original author as well.

How many editors do you think Lit has compared to the number of stories posted each day?

Also, the greater share of the 'editors' here have little or no training. Lit doesn't send people to college to learn editing.

 

[sr71plt]

There's no such thing as perfect copy. Some stories have enough mistakes in them to be intrusive, yes. In which case why don't you just click out of them if they bother you?

You sound pretty anal to me (and I'm not really prepared to buy that you are as perfect as you expect everyone else to be).

We could always check out this perfect copy idea. You could e-mail me one of your stories, and I could edit it and post it here for all of us to see. And then another editor could edit behind me to see what I missed. It would be a good way for you to illustrate how well you think every author/editor should deliver copy to you and not be disrepectful to you, the reader.

PM me and I'll happily give you an e-mail address to send your perfect story to.

 

[sr71plt]

Misstress Lynn also has a good point. What proportion of stories posted to Lit. did you think had editors, let alone trained ones?

I think you might be running on more than one misconception here.

 

[Firebrain]

[Twitches in corner at the prospect of having to edit every Lit story] No...make it stop, noooo! I'LL BE GOOD, DADDY! I PWOMISE!

 

[PennLady]

[Twitches in corner at the prospect of having to edit every Lit story] No...make it stop, noooo! I'LL BE GOOD, DADDY! I PWOMISE!

Hahahaha

I have been editing various people for probably over a year now, to varying degrees. This includes SethP, MugsyB, JazCullen and a few others. And I always get at least one or two people to read my stuff over before posting.

I don't think it's a matter of respect, or not, for readers. I think a lot of people simply don't know the proper rules of grammar and punctuation, and it's a bit distressing. I'm not saying I'm an expert (because I'm not), but I think I have a good grasp of things and when I don't, I look it up. But how many times have you read a story with a line like this:

"I don't know where to go John" He said.

There's a missing comma before John, after John, and the He should be lowercase. I see this all the time, and things like it. To me, this is so basic, yet stories like this go up all the time, and often the author says, in reply to comments, that it was edited. And I wonder how the editor missed that, but as others have pointed out, these are volunteer editors with varying degrees of knowledge and experience.

A friend of mine once said that he thinks there must be "low-standard" readers out there, to go with the low-standard writing. Else how to explain the rave comments for stories that are poorly written?

Yes, I know, people just come here for fluff, for escape, etc. -- but why can't the fluff, escape, etc., be properly done? I've stopped reading stories a few graphs in because the grammar and punctuation errors make it unreadable.

An editor, however, is at the mercy of the writer. We can only suggest changes and it's up to the writer to make them.

Sorry, that was a bit rambling -- guess I needed an editor.

 

[Firebrain]

I agree, PennLady. Even when stories are edited, it's not foolproof -- sometimes the writer doesn't make all the changes, and sometimes an editor will miss something. We all do it.

I am a bit of a cheat in some respects -- I don't copy edit fully. I point out where the writer is going wrong in one or two instances and I say, "learn what has gone wrong and fix the rest yourself." Otherwise, I'll just end up doing the same thing over and over for each piece of theirs. Often I find that entire sentences need rearranging and tidying, and I don't want to mess with the writer's prose. What all of this means is that I don't really take people on in the first place unless their grammar and writing are decent to begin with; I'm a very honest editor -- especially in literary terms, regarding character and plot etc -- and people would just end up with an inbox full of bold text savagery. Nobody wants that

On the plus side, if people overuse various adverbs, I will paste in some Star Wars haiku.

 

[PennLady]

Firebrain--

I'm all for the haikus. There are way too many adverbs running loose out there.

And everyone misses something, you're absolutely right. I have four ebooks out and cringe when I see a typo in them, a typo which has survived multiple edits and editors. It happens. I don't mind that.

Editing is perhaps more art than science. I used to work for a newsletter publisher, so I tend to proof pretty closely. Messing with the prose -- well, suggesting rewordings isn't necessarily "messing" with anything. If the author's method or style results in confusion for the reader, I think an editor is obligated to point that out and if possible suggest alternatives.

I find I edit for both grammar and plot/character. I can't help it. I poke holes, I question things, but I do it all with the goal of helping someone improve their writing and create a stronger story. They're free to disagree. Disagreement is great, because then we can debate and then the writer is thinking about their work.

You've hit a key thing with your advice to learn. I've had to stop editing people because they wouldn't learn. I will not correct the same things over and over. So it's just a struggle, I guess.

 

[talismania]

Even published books have typos and those aren't always the writer's fault. I insist on proofing before publication for that reason; it's surprising what can get past the editor's changes and the copy editor. But what happens on Lit is quite a different process and any errors do fall ultimately on the writer.

I understand why some stories with poor mechanics get rave reviews. Beautiful writing isn't the end all and be all of reading. For some of us, it matters greatly (waves hand), but for many readers the real payoff is in a great story. And some writers of so-so writing skill happen to tell great stories. If a writer takes writing seriously, they will work to develop the necessary skills. We all start somewhere, usually closer to the bottom than the top.

Lots of the writing here is amateurish, and that's to be expected. Really horrid writing puts me off reading a story, but I have enjoyed many stories where the writing is marginal. It's more enjoyable to read a great story wonderfully told, but a great story told half-assed isn't a total loss.

 

[RedShiftAway]

I think that the internet has led us to expect instant gratification in all things. Pumping out a story after a few days (hours?) of feverish writing is very gratifying. But editing sucks. So what do you do? 'Fuck it, I'm on a roll,' and hit Submit. I don't think it's disrespect, I think it's a fostered expectation of immediate gratification. Thank you, n3wb - please don't hurt me.

 

[PennLady]

True, I've found typos in any number of published books by famous authors. Like I said, I don't hold it against them. Mistakes happen and I'm not looking for perfection. One or two missing words, or something like that, does not diminish my enjoyment of a well-written story.

I think, though, that part of a great story is decent writing. I've seen a lot of stories that have good premises, or interesting characters, but if I have to decipher run-on sentences, or read things twice to make sure I have it straight, then it is not a great story. It is a poorly-told, possibly great story.

Even published books have typos and those aren't always the writer's fault. I insist on proofing before publication for that reason; it's surprising what can get past the editor's changes and the copy editor. But what happens on Lit is quite a different process and any errors do fall ultimately on the writer.

I understand why some stories with poor mechanics get rave reviews. Beautiful writing isn't the end all and be all of reading. For some of us, it matters greatly (waves hand), but for many readers the real payoff is in a great story. And some writers of so-so writing skill happen to tell great stories. If a writer takes writing seriously, they will work to develop the necessary skills. We all start somewhere, usually closer to the bottom than the top.

Lots of the writing here is amateurish, and that's to be expected. Really horrid writing puts me off reading a story, but I have enjoyed many stories where the writing is marginal. It's more enjoyable to read a great story wonderfully told, but a great story told half-assed isn't a total loss.

 

[PennLady]

There's merit to this point. I suppose I'm too old and/or old school , and so I'm willing to delay the gratification. However, to me it isn't gratifying to put up a badly-done story, even if I get great feedback for it. Lately I've been re-reading my early efforts and wincing. At some point I'll have to fix them.

One problem, to me, is that if poor effort is rewarded with great praise, the author has no reason to improve. Another is that, for whatever reason -- I don't know if it's changes in English curricula or whatever -- people will put up badly-written stories and think they are well-written.

Why should we not demand, or at least want, better storytelling? Both in reading and in what we write?

I think that the internet has led us to expect instant gratification in all things. Pumping out a story after a few days (hours?) of feverish writing is very gratifying. But editing sucks. So what do you do? 'Fuck it, I'm on a roll,' and hit Submit. I don't think it's disrespect, I think it's a fostered expectation of immediate gratification. Thank you, n3wb - please don't hurt me.

 

[RedShiftAway]

Why should we not demand, or at least want, better storytelling? Both in reading and in what we write?

No argument here. I think we should.

 

[talismania]

Why should we not demand, or at least want, better storytelling? Both in reading and in what we write?

I totally agree. We should want the best writing possible--the best stories, prose that sings and characters that leap off the page. As writers, if we don't strive to produce the best work of which we're capable, we're letting down not just our readers but ourselves. Certainly you produce work of top quality and many, many other writers here do as well. It's a great place to find good stories!

Writing is kind of like sports, though. The average person who just wants to write down a story or fantasy, perhaps for the first time, is on the same playing field... and the same Lit list... as Olympians, or high-school/college level jocks. Their efforts may not be at quite the same level, but it's great to see them out there, exercising, honing their skills and having fun with it. Most of them want good writing, too, I think. Or at least, I hope they do! And good editing does contribute a LOT to good writing.

 

[sr71plt]

Why should readers be in the position to demand anything on this Web site? These are free reads posted by writers with the full spectrum of ability to be read by readers in the full spectrum of erotica interests.

I really think it's anal retentive and more than a little pushy for readers to think they have the right to make any demands at all of the writers here.

If you don't like a story, click out of it and move on. If you think you can write a better story, do so, post it, and stop your bitchin' about what other writers are doing.

 

[PennLady]

Why should readers be in the position to demand anything on this Web site? These are free reads posted by writers with the full spectrum of ability to be read by readers in the full spectrum of erotica interests.

You have a point. My mom, a children's entertainer, has often told me that the people for whom she makes balloons, etc., at free events (i.e., where they are not paying her) are far less polite than the people who employ her at birthday parties and such.

I seem to have it hit a sore spot with you; my apologies.

I think I meant "demand" in a different way than you took it. I don't mean that readers should be able to demand that you or I write any particular type of story, nor in any particular way. I do mean that in reading the stories, if an author allows feedback, readers should be able to -- politely, of course -- offer constructive criticism and point out when things are wrong. If a story has a good premise but bad writing, that should be pointed out.

I'm not bitching about what other writers are doing. If nothing else, writers only get better by writing, and we all have to start somewhere at some level.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course and there are many stories with great premises but not writing, and good writing but dull foundations. That's fine. What's a bit distressing to me is that people lavish praise on stories that are nigh unreadable due to basic errors. Come on, we've all seen stuff that a fourth-grader could do better (content aside, of course), with comments like "This is amazing, you should be published!" Why is that?

Okay it's late and I'm losing my train of thought. So I'll stop.

 

[sr71plt]

If a writer asks for advice, I think that's when to give it. Barring that, what they want and are satisfied with in their Lit. experience is up to them, I think. They don't owe anything to anyone else--certainly not to any vigilante dropping on top of them and telling them what and how they should write.

 

[tootallday]

My bad?

I pop on this site occasionally only to stir up a little controversy and start a dialogue about a topic into which others might contribute. It always fascinates me that I never fail to dig up some who cannot find the intelligence to speak rationally. sr71plt, you have found it necessary to label me "anal" twice and to call me a vigilante. People with little to say often resort to the base level of name-calling. Have you accomplished anything by doing so. I'm sure that, in your mind (what little there is), you have destroyed me.

Sorry, I'm still here.

 

[sr71plt]

I pop on this site occasionally only to stir up a little controversy and start a dialogue about a topic into which others might contribute. It always fascinates me that I never fail to dig up some who cannot find the intelligence to speak rationally. sr71plt, you have found it necessary to label me "anal" twice and to call me a vigilante. People with little to say often resort to the base level of name-calling. Have you accomplished anything by doing so. I'm sure that, in your mind (what little there is), you have destroyed me.

Sorry, I'm still here.

No, I don't think I have changed you from the anal and vigilante modes whatsover.

I also don't think you'll risk the invitation to see how perfect your copy is--since you expect everyone else's to be perfect if they don't want to be disrespecting you (and of course they shouldn't, since you are so perfect).

 

[tootallday]

I'm not a writer and never claimed to be one. So you won't be reading any of my immaculate prose. But I sure don't understand your hostility.

One doesn't have to be an "author" or an "editor," self-proclaimed or not, to be able to be disturbed by any number of writing errors. Just as one doesn't have to be a chef to recognize a good meal.