Aurther Anderson found guilty------------

Ishmael

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of obstruction of justice.

A jury returned the verdict after 72 hours of deliberation.

This is the pertinent article:

http://webcenter.newssearch.netscape.com/aolns_display.adp?key=200206151128000192161_aolns.src

This is the first blow struck by the adminstrations justice dept. in the attempt to unravel the Enron scandal.

A couple of note worthy points here;

Aurther Anderson is one of many independent auditing firms that are licensed to audit, and certify, the books of publically traded corporations. They, and others like them, are charged with being the 'watch dogs' that notify the SEC and the public when a company tries to 'cook the books'. In this case, Aurther Anderson acted in concert with Enron to present a false impression to investors. The result of the verdict will be that Anderson will be fined, and decertified. The decertification will probably lead to Anderson's collapse and bankruptcy. This is good news. It will put the other 'watch dogs' on alert that fictionalizing their clients books will lead to their own business failure. And this in turn will lead to more conservative corporate valuations. This is good for the investment community. Anyone who invests, or is thinking about investing, will now be able to do so with a much higher confidence in the reported financials.

The second point is that the Bush administration is going after these people with a vengence. They are not molly coddling any of these companies. They are taking them to court and getting convictions. There are some that may say, "to little, to late". However, when a ceritfied auditor acts in collusion with the client being audited there is little chance that the conspiracy would have been caught before the house of cards came tumbling down. The fact that the justice department is acting with such speed is an indecation of how seriously the adminstration is taking this and how much they see this as a keystone in the return of investor confidence to the market.

Ishmael
 
I am not cheering yet. . .

They did go after them, yes, but don't think that the upper eschelon of the bush administration doesn't realize that it is politically expedient for them to do so.

btw, why not a criminal charge against Kenny boy and the other Bush/Cheney chums??
 
Re: I am not cheering yet. . .

TWB said:
They did go after them, yes, but don't think that the upper eschelon of the bush administration doesn't realize that it is politically expedient for them to do so.

btw, why not a criminal charge against Kenny boy and the other Bush/Cheney chums??

Anderson is just the first domino to fall. Look for others, including Kenny. Also look for them to go after Global Crossing and Chase Manhattan.

Ishmael
 
Glad you brought this up. I’ve talked about this and the inflation of American institutions and their value. That’s why the market has stopped going up in my opinion, companies and auditing firms are scrambling to get the books back in order. It’s about time we got back to basics. [Also, let the dollar drop and stop imposing tariffs for votes…]

Do you think the vengeance has something to do with the list (see FoxNews.com) of Congresspeople who lost money on Enron stocks?

And yes, they need to go after Global Crossing (and stop it’s sale to the Chinese – That is a matter of utmost importance to our National Security.
 
SINthysist said:
Glad you brought this up. I’ve talked about this and the inflation of American institutions and their value. That’s why the market has stopped going up in my opinion, companies and auditing firms are scrambling to get the books back in order. It’s about time we got back to basics. [Also, let the dollar drop and stop imposing tariffs for votes…]

Do you think the vengeance has something to do with the list (see FoxNews.com) of Congresspeople who lost money on Enron stocks?

And yes, they need to go after Global Crossing (and stop it’s sale to the Chinese – That is a matter of utmost importance to our National Security.

Well the Global Crossing and Chase investigations will be interesting. I can't wait to hear the Democrats start to howl "politics" on those two.

What's funny is that the Democrats have even stopped talking about Enron. Not even a smoking gun there as far as the administration is concerned.

Interesting.

Ishmael
 
It's a bad time for anyone named Anderson.
I heard they cancelled VIP...
 
Hey if he held up a 7-11 he would be considered a big time felon, let's really give him what he deserves...... bang - bang dead. Or is gas more to the liking of the general public?

Shit no, he will get probation and take untold millions with him... justice in america for the rich.
 
This one's headed for a successful appeal.

First, the judge struck the instructions to the jury that told them that the burden of proof was on the Government to prove guilt. It forced the company to prove its own innocence and forgot that this current criminal justice system mandates that the innocence of the defendant is assumed until guilt is proven.

Second, the judge sent instructions to the jury that they could convict if they believed that an employee engaged in wrongdoing, even if they had no idea which employee it was. So...someone did something wrong. They don't know who it was (allowing a very flimsy prosecutorial job), yet they're guilty.

Nice job, Justice Department. You've successfully put 85, 000 people out of work, and convicted exactly no one. Even if the appeal is successful, the company is finished and those people, all but a very few of whom are completely innocent of doing anything wrong at all, are out of work. Very well done.
 
ethics was on trial... the firm of Arther Anderson had none!!!!

Guilty they said, and guilty they were.
 
Ishy I hope the Bushies will start acting like men about this and everything else, I doubt it though.
 
MacCortz said:
ethics was on trial... the firm of Arther Anderson had none!!!!

Guilty they said, and guilty they were.

Unfortunately the firm has no impetus on its own.

I figure the first "they" is the jury, but who are the second "they". Who, exactly, is guilty of these wrongdoings? Who has broken the law?

Hell, I have no problem prosecuting the people who broke the law. I have a huge problem with a half-assed court case which results in the implosion of a company that employed 85K people. That's not justice, it's stupidity on a colossal scale.
 
JazzManJim said:


Unfortunately the firm has no impetus on its own.

I figure the first "they" is the jury, but who are the second "they". Who, exactly, is guilty of these wrongdoings? Who has broken the law?

Hell, I have no problem prosecuting the people who broke the law. I have a huge problem with a half-assed court case which results in the implosion of a company that employed 85K people. That's not justice, it's stupidity on a colossal scale.

Jim, I have no quarral with you. The people, managers/CEO etc. need to know what is going on, ignorance is not bliss or even acceptable.... put them in jail.
 
Hey Jim it was the higher eschelons of the skanky company that did this. With zero trust in the company, and the fact that they got caught, the company would have been laying off people left and right anyways. What I don't understand is why aren't the people who sanctioned this, and are thus responsible, being fistfucked by pissed off thugs who lost money in the stock market. Course you are probably with me on this. I guess what I am saying is that the court and the justice department, however much they fucked this up, are not really at fault here. Sucks to be one of the 85k no doubt, but I don't think you can blame the government for this unless you want to go after Bush and Cheney who certainly in bed with Enron before and during the current administration.

I love that picture of you and your kid.
 
MacCortz said:


Jim, I have no quarral with you. The people, managers/CEO etc. need to know what is going on, ignorance is not bliss or even acceptable.... put them in jail.

I understand that, and I agree with it.

Except that's not what's happening here. No human being has been convicted of a crime. No CEO. No Manager. No one.

The company itself was hammered, which puts the real heat on the little people who were employed there. They're the ones hurt by this.

What I want is for the Justice Department to do its job and find out exactly who was responsible. They didn't do this. The conviction was gotten through a rather interesting set of rules from the judge to the jury. The current consensus is that if those hadn't been put in place, there wouldn't have been a guilty verdict at all. I want the Justice Department to actually make a case against the guilty individuals.

Unfortunately that's too late for the people now out of work.
 
juicygirl said:
Hey Jim it was the higher eschelons of the skanky company that did this. With zero trust in the company, and the fact that they got caught, the company would have been laying off people left and right anyways. What I don't understand is why aren't the people who sanctioned this, and are thus responsible, being fistfucked by pissed off thugs who lost money in the stock market. Course you are probably with me on this. I guess what I am saying is that the court and the justice department, however much they fucked this up, are not really at fault here. Sucks to be one of the 85k no doubt, but I don't think you can blame the government for this unless you want to go after Bush and Cheney who certainly in bed with Enron before and during the current administration.

I love that picture of you and your kid.

Thanks :D

Yeah, I'm with you on most of this.

However, the important thing to note here is that AA is a rather minor part of what happened when Enron took the Big Dump. What they're accused of doing, essentially, is protecting a paying client. That's not necessarily a problem. That's what they're paid a lot of money to do.

Where the Justice Department fumbled is in not successfully finding individuals in AA who were responsible. Getting leverage on those few people would give them the prybar they'd need to get the Enron execs who are, lest anyone forget, the folks who need to be gotten. They're the ones who did the lying and cheating and shady-dealing. All the AA folks did was run a paper-shredder. It's a minor point and it's not worth taking down a whole company.

That's all. :)
 
JazzManJim said:


Thanks :D

Yeah, I'm with you on most of this.

However, the important thing to note here is that AA is a rather minor part of what happened when Enron took the Big Dump. What they're accused of doing, essentially, is protecting a paying client. That's not necessarily a problem. That's what they're paid a lot of money to do.

Where the Justice Department fumbled is in not successfully finding individuals in AA who were responsible. Getting leverage on those few people would give them the prybar they'd need to get the Enron execs who are, lest anyone forget, the folks who need to be gotten. They're the ones who did the lying and cheating and shady-dealing. All the AA folks did was run a paper-shredder. It's a minor point and it's not worth taking down a whole company.

That's all. :)

JJJ,

It's a much bigger problem than what you've mentioned.

There job is NOT to protect the client, but to guide the client and as a certified auditor, they have a fuduciary responsibility NOT to afix their signature and good name to a blatantly false document. Those documents being the financial reports that were furnished to the public and the SEC. It tood a great deal of effort on AA's part to help Enron 'cook the books'.

Yes, AA will loose 85K jobs (Did you check this out? Does that include Anderson Consulting? AC will more than likely survive.) But the better of these people will be picked up by other firms, Price, E-Y etc.

As far as the Judges instructions. From the 'exit' interviews with the jurors, that I read about, it was the actions of AA's in house consoule that led the jury to the guilty verdict. So there was a specific person, it's just that the government charged the Company, not the person. The reason that it was done this way was preicipally because of the vital role that accurate financial disclosure plays in business and the market.

Ishmael
 
juicygirl said:
Ishy I hope the Bushies will start acting like men about this and everything else, I doubt it though.

??????????????? What's that supposed to mean JG? It's the Bush admin. that is slamming Enron and AA. I don't expect them to quit either.

There was, and is, nothing intrinsically wrong with the market except for investor confidence. Getting tough with AA will put the other certified auditors on notice and should go a long way to restore investor confidence.

Ishmael
 
I agree. I did not understand WTF she was talking about.

Again, I think the investor confidence is low because other companies value shrank as the shrank back realizing that thier accounting proceedures were similar, or becoming similar.

Big business was caught red-handed using a variation of the "no controlling authority" strategy...




Sidebar - Did you read the exerpt of the Fox interview with Dashle? Seems, he like the other Democrats are reading the polls, realized they've been fucking up big time and are now sticking up for Bush to improve thier image going into the elections. Hell, one Democrat is even using a picture of himself and Bush in an ad...




Hell, even McCain wants to be a Republican again!

Can Jumpin' Jim Jeffords be far behind?
 
SINthysist said:
I agree. I did not understand WTF she was talking about.

Again, I think the investor confidence is low because other companies value shrank as the shrank back realizing that thier accounting proceedures were similar, or becoming similar.

Big business was caught red-handed using a variation of the "no controlling authority" strategy...




Sidebar - Did you read the exerpt of the Fox interview with Dashle? Seems, he like the other Democrats are reading the polls, realized they've been fucking up big time and are now sticking up for Bush to improve thier image going into the elections. Hell, one Democrat is even using a picture of himself and Bush in an ad...




Hell, even McCain wants to be a Republican again!

Can Jumpin' Jim Jeffords be far behind?

Yep, all the crap they've been throwing has bounced back and stuck with them. Look for them to trot out the old "They're going to take your Social Security benefits away and force you to eat cat food" mantra. I'm going to have to do a thread on that someday.

Ishmael
 
They already are. The flap about the Democratic memo was just two weeks ago, I believe.


So,


Please complete the transmission...
 
SINthysist said:
They already are. The flap about the Democratic memo was just two weeks ago, I believe.


So,


Please complete the transmission...

Yah, I remember the memo. The press barely reported it though. What else is new?

The risk they run on that one is the initiation of a generation war, and the fact that if you keep crying 'wolf', eventually no one will listen to you.

Ishmael
 
From the comments from the I wanna be a Democrat thread, nobody's listening to any of the politicians...

I wonder when the used-cars salesmen, er, people, let's slime the women too, will wise up and start running for office in order to restore some dignity...

But, like I told Laurel, Dubya did not go after the Vandals of the White House, because he wanted to be gracious and restore diginity to the office.
 
Seems to me........

......that the problems lie not with corporations like Anderson and Enron, but with the process created and supported by Congress and the IRS.

Business by its nature must be very competitive. That competition within the market place is healthy and beneficial. When an artificial field of competition is introduced, however, it is not at all surprising that errors will be made. The hundreds of thousands of pages of tax code written to make corporations the hidden tax collectors for the government created this debacle!

Enron in its quest to position itself "on the cutting edge" hired the largest, most aggressive accounting firm available. That firm in its zeal interpreted tax law in the most agressive way possible to remain "on the cutting edge". Is it surprising to anyone that laws and tax codes written and enforced by a group of politicians and bureaucrats with no knowledge of the workings of business, only a disdain for it, would lead to this end?

Just my opinion, but the business of business should be only business, not the collection of revenue for the polititions to spend!:rolleyes:

Rhumb:(
 
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