attorneys

[Arkane]

Originally posted by irontoto:
how can an honest attorney, ( not a public defender) take a case like this and try to ruin a perfectly law enforcment official as compared to a drug dealer.i was appalled at this attorney's display of character during the trial.please don't answer with the word "money" because sometimes ethics and morales should be involved.i look forward to your comments and please, if you are an attorney, please state it in your response.thank you. and i am sorry but my last couple of topics has had nothing to do with sex.

Irontonto
I understand your feelings completely man, It irks the hell out of me that an attorney could go and defend a scumbag like that or even take the lawsuit in the first place. I have worked with Law enforcement on and off for a long time, thankfully not as a cop, no offense I wouldn't have your alls job, and I have seen it a lot. Attorney's defending child rapists, drug dealers, murderers, and other scum that they know are guilty but do it anyway...I don't know I think 95% of the attorneys out there give the other 5% a bad name.

Arkane

 

[Irontoto]

ARKANE, THANKS ALOT!

 

[Renee]

Maybe I can shed some light on this for you Irontoto... we all agree that some people don't deserve the justice system's help... however, since we have to hear both sides of the story to piece together what really happened, they end up in Court with someone to Defend them. With that being said, I asked my brother this question a while ago, he is an attorney. His answer to me was this: All attorneys in New Jersey (I don't know about other states I didn't ask) have to do a certain amount of work Pro Bono by law... That is, give free aid to a person who has no money. The State will assign you to a case at random, and you cannot refuse to handle that case, even if it is not in your legal background. That is why some of them get attorneys... when the case is assigned to you, you must do your best to defend them as you would someone who came to your office and signed a Retainer Agreement. These cases are looked into and scrutinized by the wonderful Court Admin. and if you one thing is found that you could have done to help this person and did not do.. you can be heavily fined, placed in jail, and/or Disbarred. This is to ensure that all people guilty/innocent as well as innocent/not innocent (there is a difference) have a fair trial.

Now if a person is able to pay for legal representation and you handle that the type of case they are involved in, you cannot refuse them your legal services unless you have another case that will conflict with the interest of this one, or you get a pardon from a judge not to do it.

So unfortunately, they sometimes have to defend people they really don't want to defend.

I guess when it comes down to it, when you know a person is guilty/not innocent of a crime then you view things as you are now. However, if you are Third-Party to the crime, then you really have to hear both sides and hope that the Judge and Jury see through all of the bull shit.

Hope this helps you understand.


BTW, I have so much respect for all Police Officers: Not only for the jobs they do, but for the bullshit they are put through once they do it. It's amazing how you are out there to do a job and as soon as it's done correctly you are wrapped up in a Court Case.. it kills me. You can't win. People want to be protected, yet, when they are they are, they bitch and moan about how it was done. It makes me sick sometimes.

 

[Irontoto]

i was away this past week at a civil trial , were i was being sued for falsly accusing and arresting a drug dealing scumbag from an inner city in new jersey.as the outcome was nothing short of what was expected, the jury voted 8-0 in my favor.my question to all of you:
how can an honest attorney, ( not a public defender) take a case like this and try to ruin a perfectly law enforcment official as compared to a drug dealer.i was appalled at this attorney's display of character during the trial.please don't answer with the word "money" because sometimes ethics and morales should be involved.i look forward to your comments and please, if you are an attorney, please state it in your response.thank you. and i am sorry but my last couple of topics has had nothing to do with sex.

 

[Sammyjo]

Money...but I think that they just want to make sure that the losers get a fair trial. As much as we hate it, the criminals deserve to have their rights protected. And someone has to do that. I've read books from attorney's who say they never thought they would be in the position to defend a criminal, but they found that it was very fulfilling for them. I also want to say, that not everyone that is arrested and tried is the criminal. How many of these people on death row have been killed, only to find out later that they were indeed NOT the criminal.

 

[Golden]

wrong bulletin board, tonto - try litigatica.com

 

[Ravenloft]

Ah... Cops... Especially small town cops like we have here in B.R. Get this: One day on her way to work my mom was ran into by a cop... Hit the drivers side door... She had the right of way and he had a stop sign... He takes the report for the accident, he puts down that it was no-ones fault... A week later they have us come to the police dept. because there is some sort of "problem" with the report... they start to hassle mom about previous damage. (The only other marks on the car were from rust.) And start to insinuate that mom was trying to fuck the cops over and when she trys to reply they start to become threatening and back her right up against the car... Needless to say the cop got off without paying a cent. And we had to find some other way to fix the car... Which leads me into another gripe... How can repairing a fucking car door cost more than 1,000?! So... there have been few too many times where a cop has SHOWN us that he is out there to make our lives safe... Maybe you would care to change my opinion Irontoto? As it stands now, I will do my best to leave you guys alone and pray that you'll do the same for me. Just a little bitter arn't I? Heh.

 

[Xander]

It surprises me time after time. How clean innocent people can get in so much trouble, legally, when dealing with the "wrong" kind of person.
Another thing that keep surprising me. Is the number of, pardon my french, "stupid" trial there are allowed in the US.
And I'm definately not saying that we over here are any better. Not at all. We just seem to fuck up trials differently.
Having had to deal with a few attorneys in my time. I can only come to one conclusion.

They're voltures.

Even when they are on your side.
For those out there who just happens to be one of these scavengers.
I'd like to see try to change my mind about the whole law practice.
I seriously don't think you can.

 

[Irontoto]

SAMMYJO, YOU GOT CRIMINAL AND CIVIL MIXEDUP. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS WAS A CIVIL TRIAL.

HEY GOLDEN, NO ONE MADE YOU READ OR ANSWER THIS TOPIC, DID THEY?

RAVENLOFT, SOUNDS LIKE YOU DON'T LIKE COPS?

XANDER, THANK YOU,THECOMMENTS THAT YOU MADE,MADE SENSE AND I LOOK FORWARD TO MORE!

THANK YOU ALL FOR RESPONDING.

[This message has been edited by irontoto (edited 03-17-2000).]

 

[Sammyjo]

Civil, criminal...doesn't matter...everyone deserves a fair and just decision. You can't expect him to go in there and defend himself. SOMEONE has to do it. You should know that. Defense attorney's have jobs to do. That doesn't mean they BELIEVE the criminal is innocent. It is a way to make a living. That is how they do it. Plain and simple. Just ask them.

 

[Irontoto]

i understand totally what you said, but however you used the word "criminal" in your first comment and i wanted to be sure that you were aware that this was a civil trial. thats one of the reasons that i put in parentesis not a public defender.i tried to make this as less confusing as possible.please understand that i was the defendant in this case, not him. i had to defend my actions, he was what is called the plantiff, not defendant.

 

[Sammyjo]

First of all, I worked for a group of attorney's for 2 1/2 years, so I am aware of the terminology. I understand that you were the one being "sued", which would make you the defendent. But, why is it that you feel the need to say that this person doesn't deserve a fair shot at defending himself (which is what he was doing, whether he was a plaintiff or not) just because he was scum? We all have the right to use anything we can to get our case across. I'm not going to argue the logistics of this particular case because I was not there.

You asked a question, and I've answered it twice. Lawyers do things to pay the bills, just as you and I do. If they have a job to do, they do it. You might not like it, I might not like it. But the fact of the matter is, we all deserve to prove our innocence. If we feel that we have been treated unjustly, we have the right to an appeal. Just as someone has to operate on patients to save lives, someone has to represent the scum in order to give them a fair shot. Or what is commonly known as "proving reasonable doubt". He had every right to "sue" you, because you "brought him down" so to speak. He was trying to prove that you did so unjustly, which obviously didn't work for him.

Calling a lawyer's morals into account has really no relavance. What of those cops who brutally beat a man because he was black? Do they have morals? Do they still have jobs? Did they spend time in jail for their crime?

Morality and the law seem to have no correlation anymore. Once again...it all comes down to money. Who was it that said "Money makes the world go 'round?"

*sidebar: I am not saying you are wrong in your assessment of anything...I am merely saying that there are laws and even the low-lifes have a right to use those laws to prove their innocence. I was not trying to upset you or irritate you, merely to answer your question, which you seem to have found undesireable...sorry that you feel that way, it's just the way it is*

 

[Boo]

Briefly. I am an attorney and here is the deal in a nutshell. We have an adversarial system that protects all of us. In the civil context, you have the plaintiff (you call him scumbag criminal), the defendant, (that would be you, the virtuous and falsely accused cop), and the judiciary/jury to oversee. The plaintiff's attorney's job is to believe what his/her client tells him/her and present the best possible case based on the facts as given to him/her by the client. It is not his/her job to second guess his client. If he/she didn't think the claim had some merit they wouldn't take the case in most cases since his/her fee is based on a contingency....that he/she win the case and be awarded money damages. Each adversarial side puts on the best case possible and then a jury or judge decides. That is our system. It protects us all. Why don't people pick on car salesmen or insurance adjusters every once in a while? P.S. I know a lot of really good cops....I also know many who are very capable of performing all the attrocities your accuser accused you of. That is why we have the system we do. And it worked, the jury didn't believe him. Congrats.

 

[Ravenloft]

I don't hate cops, I have respect for what they do. Its that the only time you ever have to talk to one is if you fucked up and broke the law... Why oh why can't I live in Maybury... Heheh! But seriously, I don't think I have EVER talked to one outside of getting a ticket... Its like if you see a cop looking your way you know its gonna be a bad day... There was this bike cop program here in town a few years back that was kinda a neat idea. this cop would ride around town and actually make a conection with the people... Give kids ballons and that sort of thing... But shit... Who in there right mind is gonna flag a cop down just for a chat...

 

[Renee]

Ravenloft, I think Mayberry had trouble in their town too, that's why they needed Andy. They even arrested poor Aunt Bea once.. I knew that old lady couldn't be trusted with them damn pies!

 

[Ravenloft]

Yeah, I know that, but Andy was a cool guy that you could actually go up to and have a chat with damn it! Heheh!

 

[Renee]

True true.. even Otis the drunk loved him

 

[Shintani]

Rowan, the rank and file may agree, but the brass always comes out in support of gun control and weapons bans, at least in the Northeast.

Fallen, from what I heard, the poll was given to field grade officers and NCOs in the USMC, USN, and Special Operations units (Like SEALS)

 

[Shintani]

You people actually trust Law Enforcement Officers? Let's see, they want a monopoly on the ability to own weapons, when they can't have that, they don't want civilians to be able to own the proper equipment required to stop them if they violate the Constitution? And all this in a country where the military was just polled to see if they would follow UN or US orders to fire on American civilians...

 

[Fallen Angel]

On topic

You can get sued for sueing so fill a countersuit.
Lawyers are money sucking scoundrels and cops are the biggest gang in town.
Now that I have pissed everyone off there are good very good people in both professions and I try and give them the benifit of the doubt anytime I meet a new one. I am so glad that there are cops willing to put their life on the line instead of me having to and I am glad that I can hire the best lawyer I can afford to try and win in the legal battlefield. Both groups have a lot of power and both tend to abuse it. Power corrupts, temptation is great to abuse that power to benifit themselves and their friends.

irontoto I hope that the outcome was as you wished but as one who puts himself on the line you must expect to get sniped at. Legally and in real life. It is shameful that our system of law has several layers and that you can be tried several times for the same event.

Shintani I missed that one. Who polled the US military and why?

 

[Rowan]

Shintani, I've known quite a few cops, was married to one, in fact. I'm not sure where you come by your opinions but ALL the officers I've ever had the discussion with, are in favor of citizens having the right to bear arms (the Second Amendment). I would venture to say that, if polled, the majority of cops would agree.

As for the lawyers, cops will never "like" them. It's just the nature of the work. Look at it from their point of view: they've just worked hard in arresting a person, maybe even put their life on the line, and then they have to take a day (or more) out of work to sit in a trial listening to an attorney make the accused sound like Mother Theresa in a borrowed suit. Of course, this is a generalization, but you get the point.

Cops know this is the way our legal system works, but that doesn't mean they have to like it.

In my opinion, both parties are just doing their jobs.

 

[Guest]

Hey, "Law Enforcement Officials," aka cops, are pretty damn corrupt/bad/criminal themselves.

 

[Guest]

Just because you're a cop you think you're automatically Mr. Good-Guy? Bullshit!!

 

[Slut_boy]

Hi Irontot0,

Well most people know that I am a lawyer. Not an attorney (or solicitor) but an advocate (barrister). And so perhaps I can tell you why it is that we sometimes take on cases for clients who are themselves less than pure.

The reason is to be found somewhere in the idea that we (as lawyers) are not on trial. So that means, by logical deduction, that we are not the immoral violators - our clients are. The next point is that our clients are also not immoral until they are proven to be. When their immorality is proven, then I agree with you that they are guilty - until then we have a proffessional obligation to treat them as innocent.

The obvious question : would I defend a man who is guilty. The answer is "yes". But I won't try to have him aquitted of his guilt, but I will try to assist him in at least getting a fair trial. Guilt is only one step in the process - the next step is what to do with him. He needs a lawyer to ensure that his sentence is fair and fits the crime.

Have a dug a deeper hole for myself, or does that help in any way.

 

[Irontoto]

bobby, you don't even know me.how the hell can you judge me?

slut_ boy: thanks for your help. if you have some extra time on your hands, please teach bobby a thing or two.

[This message has been edited by irontoto (edited 03-20-2000).]