At what point (so very very political US)

[Lucifer_Carroll]

At what point, Republicans?

Anyone who still gives this president or even party support anymore baffles me. I'm sorry, maybe I'm living in a dream world. Maybe in the real world, a single issue like preventing sinners from marrying and maybe kissing and bringing that faggotry into your small town trumps everything in existence. Maybe you believe so strongly in one thing that you would vote for SuperHitler just to see it happen. Maybe that's how I'm supposed to be, supposed to think. Maybe I would be able to adapt and accept SuperHitler's other beliefs as my own as Republicans have been doing. Maybe I could argue on TV that genocide isn't all bad like Republicans have with torture.

I can't. I have limits. And they stop hell of short of that crap. My limits are by comparison tiny. If a president I supported violated one article of America, commited one act of sanctioned torture or genocide or anything like that, if they pulled any one of the illegal attacks on social freedom that this president has, I would cease giving my support. I would vote for nearly anybody above them. Even if that man was Jesus's incarnation on Earth and was promising an end goal of a Utopia exactly in line with my beliefs, the fulfillment of every pipe dream I never thought could happen and his opponent was a Hitler clone. I'd vote for the Hitler clone. I'd bash Utopia Jesus. My limits cannot be crossed.


But the more I see, I become awe-struck with how much Republicans can take, can support without churning seas of bile devouring their insides. It baffles me. Luckily it baffles me enough to prevent me from swinging past my substantially higher threshold of "fuck it, the system is terminally polluted, time to start firebombing everything", but still it baffles me.

At this point President Bush has stolen two elections and countless smaller ones, fights against democracy, has installed a theocracy in America, has polluted every value America has, has been revealed to be the source of a deliberate act of treason against the United States of America (Valerie Plame), has slashed benefits for veterans and soldiers, aided and abetted Pakistan in the continued hiding and care of Osama bin-Laden, engaged America in an illegal war, shat on the honour of its servicemen by ordering them to engage in large-scale torturing, raping, and murdering of innocents. Ordering genocidal wipeouts of entire towns, declaring a jihad against Islam, directly attacking the sanctity of nearly all the articles of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, refusing to comply with the rulings of the other Branches in a direct attack on the Balance of Powers, essentially seizing America in a de facto Dictatorship with false semblances of democracy, attacking the civil rights of the citizenry, spying on the citizenry, sending 14 year olds to concentration camps, building concentration camps which house some of our own countrymen, denying any and all rights to said concentration camp victims including the right to ever be charged with the crime they are being punished for, destroying the entire network of allies, increasing the ire and strength of our enemies, aiding our enemies when possible with huge donations of money, weapons, and attacks against their mortal enemies (Iraq (Saddam was Osama's biggest enemy in the Middle East)), aiding our enemies by flying out their family members while the rest of the nation was denied flight, did I mention aiding and abetting enemies are grounds for more treason accounts, consistently lying about everything and anything, stealing our money in order to give gifts to wealthy supporters, and who can forget giving control over the entire Eastern seaboard, the sanctity of those docks and passage of anything they want into our homeland, to a foreign country, who happens to fund al-Queda and support their actions.

And lest we forget raising the national debt by obscene margins, pissing off countries who could destroy us simply by calling in our substantial debt, attempting to destroy the UN, and threatening nearly everyone literally with the use of nuclear weapons (at the highest runs of government no less) and oh, did we mention TREASON!

One man doing this in America's name is an atrocity, a horror which a bipartisan congress would be only to happy to excise and apologize for. Instead, it has the happy support of the Repuiblican Party. A party which sacrificed any value it may have in the hopes that this traitor and anti-American zealot would give them a few social vlaues victories. Any sane man would find this party guilty of aiding and abetting and even if they bought you a pony or a car or a pony-car and promised an Utopia, would vote for any party above them.

If it was me and it was my party you bet Hitler clone and the "We swear we are not the Nazi" Party would get their votes over them. Even if it was Super Jesus and the Utopia Party. Because I have very clear limits.



So what's wrong with all of you?

Why in the name of all that's holy do you not only defend this party and curse its opposition, but support this man? Why do you put yourself through the insane amount of effort it takes to completely rewire your own belief system, find yourself saying things you never thought you'd be able to say, all to protect him and support him? How in the name of all that's holy are you able to further delude yourself to the point that you can go out and "bait liberals" for being so "backward"? How is that possible?

Do you even have a breaking point? A point at which whatever has managed to survive of your feeble patriotism and morality goes "ENOUGH!"? A point where in you couldn't find yourself gleefully supporting the atrocities done in your name? Cause at this point, I'm wondering if you do?





Cause at this point, it's really not funny anymore. It's not even pitiable anymore. It's not even "what the fuck is wrong with you" or even "wow, you really are that stupid". At this point, we're starting to hit, "huh, are you really that evil. Do you actually hate this country?" And it's scary.

 

[AngeloMichael]

My question is to the Democrats.

With all the shit this Republican administration has done (re: the above post, even setting aside the hyperbole) how can you still be such wimps and let them get away with it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's the party of no direction up against the party going in the wrong direction.

 

[Antfarmer77]

Well this is all new territory I guess because no president in the history of the US has ever done any of the above mentioned sins, wrongs, bad deeds etc.
right? Make no mistake, EVERY president has done it, it just wasn't "spun" to death in the past like it has been in the past decade or so. Politics is dirty business and it's not populated by saints. It's easy to say "Oh I'd never allow someone to be tortured" or "I wouldn't let our troops attack like that" but until you're in the position of either torture a few war prisoners or let several hundred, or even thousands, of your own people perish it's hard to say what you'd really do.
I, personally, am not even sure where I really stand anymore, party wise, because it's hard to make a fair assesment when you don't feel you have the whole story. I don't think we, as a people, ever have or ever will. But I voted for GW and I'd vote for him again if he was eligable to run. Hell i may just write him in on my ballt just for principles sake. ;-)

 

[Guest]

Well this is all new territory I guess because no president in the history of the US has ever done any of the above mentioned sins, wrongs, bad deeds etc.
right? Make no mistake, EVERY president has done it, it just wasn't "spun" to death in the past like it has been in the past decade or so. Politics is dirty business and it's not populated by saints. It's easy to say "Oh I'd never allow someone to be tortured" or "I wouldn't let our troops attack like that" but until you're in the position of either torture a few war prisoners or let several hundred, or even thousands, of your own people perish it's hard to say what you'd really do.
I, personally, am not even sure where I really stand anymore, party wise, because it's hard to make a fair assesment when you don't feel you have the whole story. I don't think we, as a people, ever have or ever will. But I voted for GW and I'd vote for him again if he was eligable to run. Hell i may just write him in on my ballt just for principles sake. ;-)

Here is your answer, Luc.

That's very disquieting, AF.

 

[Antfarmer77]

Here is your answer, Luc.

That's very disquieting, AF.

I have that effect on women LOL

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

So the answer is that there are no lines and that every president has done this before.

Bullshit.

Have presidents in the past commited some of the similar sins in the past. Yes, especially in wars. The Vietnam presidents are perfect examples of that. But to this degree and with systematic attacks on all American values, commision of treason, and attempting to make it intrinsic to the American way of life, I say nay.

And I know what I would do with all the facts. I know what lines I wouldn't cross, because I know myself. The smoking gun bullshit given for torture is bullshit. There has never been a case wherein torturing a man has lead to the foiling of an active plot. It can never happen and if it ever presented itself, the torture victim wouldn't break in time, nor the forces mobilize in time to do anything about it.

Even if it were the case, even if it was 100% cut and dried, torture someone or Philadelphia disappears into the nth dimension, I know I would not order it and I would order the public execution of any of my officials who would. I know my lines. I know my limits and no amount of "secret information" would make me betray them.





Though this all does bring up an interesting side point. The tendency to morally equivalate. When given two choices, we assume that they are equal in two different directions. Republicans have capitalized on this apparently because the natural tendency is to say, all politicians are bad or democrats would have done similar things under those circumstances or democrats are just as bad in a similar way. Its the "party of bad ideas vs party of no ideas" as the statement instead of "the party who wants America and the World destroyed vs the party of no ideas" as the reality. We assume all presidents were equally as bad, that they merely hid this level of anti-American treason. This is bollocks, but might explain why so many have no limits, no point at which their switches turn over.


Humans can rationalize anything.

That's the disquieting.



Now to answer Angelo. I am not a Democrat. Democrats the politicians, why they do not act, is probably a result of their inability to resolve the pressure to stand up for their values and the pressure to become even more moderate and ineffectual. Moderate voters made both demands of them last election and they've gone catatonic while trying to figure out which to give weight. Worse yet, they are hoping they could do both and there is no hope in hell that they'll be able to pull that off.

As far as personal action, I have done every legal method of protest and it amounted to a fly shitting on a windowpane. I'm just waiting to pass my firebombing threshold now.

 

[zeb1094]

As the two parties, Democrate and Republican, demagogue each other, the two parties are coming closer and closer together on many issues.

The Republicans long held the belief that small government was more desirable than large, yet in the past two Republican Presidencies, government has grown bigger than during the Clinton years. Why?

And although the Republicans hold the majority in the House and Senate, they seem to refuse to wield the power the people have given them. Why?

These are but two questions, there are more, such as:

Border Security
Illegals
Hunger
The Homeless
Crime
Government Interference
Private Property Rights

And all within our borders.

 

[Pure]

Luc,

One part of the answer, is that much of your list is civil liberties issues. These don't play well in Peoria. When you ask Americans on the street, they often tend NOT to support key parts of the Bill of Rights--e.g. they believe that saying what you did about the Pres. should send you to jail; likewise for blasphemy. Due process? Simply pose a scenario for 'agree' or 'disagree.' "If you've got a fellow who you know has murdered one person and, on good evidence, has another stashed somewhere, the police should be allowed to torture the answer from him."

Another part is that there IS a war. People don't turn on a leader in a war, and the soldiers on the ground [and their families] don't 'get it' until well into the war, when lots have returned home. As to atrocities, people remember those of the other side most strongly-- like Zarqawi beheading Perl.

As to the Republican Party-- if you watch McCain and others, the party is regrouping to figure how not to get slaughtered. Remember very few in a party are that principled. If the 'gay marriage' thing loses its punch or backfires, they'll stop using it and return to really core issues like flag burning and getting teens to pledge abstinence.

Lastly, to answer your question, based on right wing sources I visit.
You have to remember that liberals are treasonous and yank babies part way out of pregnant moms' wombs and crush their skulls. Kerry, you probably don't know, works for al Qaeda. So the final 'line' of the answer is 'lesser of evils.'

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I think we're going a bit far.

Case in point... he won two elections, he didn't "steal" them. And he's a bad president.

We don't really need to demonize George Bush based on ridiculous exaggerations to conclude that he is not a good president and his part of the Republican party (because to talk about them all sweepingly is just asinine) should not be voted into positions of power by the people if we want a better future.

There's plenty to find disappointing and inferior in the way he has actually done his job without resorting to being childish and overstepping the points.

Unless the intent was to be the Ann Coulter of Liberalism... then, by all means, do punditry like her.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

The smallest of the small:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/16/AR2006051601712.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64737-2004Dec14?language=printer
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/11/10/loc_warrenvote10.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/031104trumpcard.htm
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/






But all that aside, allow me to condense the list down to those that should be the most unforgivable. That is treason (via aiding and abetting Osama bin Laden and those who house and fund him and also via the outing of an active undercover CIA agent in charge of Middle East affairs and terrorism), sanctioning widespread torture and enlisting our own servicemen to carry it out, and violating the Geneva Convention with glee and determination.

How does one rationalize these acts into their own morality, let them off as picadillos or goof-ups or "what is neccessary"? How does one manage to argue in defense of those without feeling like scum? How are these lessened by his other lesser crimes?

I suppose that's the real meat of my question. How does that work? Is it all down to equivalating the parties as equal, is it FOX News syndrome as Pure suggests, or is it something else?