AT&Ts new defense - we did it for Nixon in Watergate...

The Heretic

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http://wired.com/news/technology/0,71227-1.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1

By Kevin Poulsen| Also by this reporter
17:00 PM Jun, 23, 2006

SAN FRANCISCO -- It was perhaps inevitable that someone would compare President Bush's extrajudicial wiretapping operations to Richard Nixon's 1970s-era surveillance of journalists and political enemies. Both were carried out by Republican presidents; both bypassed the courts; both relied on the cooperation of U.S. telecommunications companies.

But there's some irony in the fact that it was AT&T to first make the comparison in a federal courtroom here, while defending itself from charges of complicity in Bush's warrantless spying.

Company attorney Bradford Berenson cited the case of The New York Times reporter Hedrick Smith, who'd been illegally wiretapped by Nixon's Plumbers as part of an investigation into White House leaks. In 1979, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled that Smith couldn't sue Chesapeake & Potomac Telephone Company -- then part of AT&T's Bell System -- for installing the wiretaps at the Plumbers' behest.

The Nixon Defense was one of several arguments offered Friday by AT&T and the Justice Department in their bid to win summary dismissal of the Electronic Frontier Foundation's class-action lawsuit. The suit accuses the company of providing the National Security Agency with access to customer and non-customer internet traffic passing through AT&T's systems, without a warrant.

Without confirming the allegations, AT&T said if it is cooperating with the NSA, it can't be held responsible, because -- as in the Nixon case -- it's serving as a "passive instrument or passive agent of the government," said Berenson.

"AT&T could refuse, could it not, to provide access to its facilities?" countered U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker.

Berenson replied that AT&T would refuse any clearly illegal request, and a courtroom overflowing with EFF supporters broke into murmured, sardonic laughter. In the back, late-coming observers unable to win a seat pressed their faces against the windows of the courtroom door.

The government's surveillance activities of the 1970s were an ever-present ghost in the nearly three-hour-long hearing Friday, in a case that's emerging as a crucial challenge of the law passed in response to Watergate-era abuses. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, requires the government to obtain a court order before performing electronic surveillance in national security cases, except for surveillance targeting only foreign nationals or for emergency wiretaps lasting no longer than 72 hours.

A related law allows private parties to sue a telecommunications company for cooperating in government surveillance that doesn't meet FISA's requirements or the demands of criminal wiretap laws. But that law grants companies immunity if the U.S. attorney general first presents them with a letter certifying that the surveillance is legal.

AT&T won't confirm or deny that it received such a letter. But Walker, who's privy to the government's classified evidence in the case, spent some time posing questions about how a letter would affect the litigation's outcome. EFF attorney Kevin Bankston argued that AT&T has a duty to know the law, and wouldn't be protected by a written request to assist in an illegal surveillance operation. "That piece of paper could not authorize the conduct that we allege here," Bankston said.

The government argued that the existence or nonexistence of a letter from the attorney general addressed to AT&T is one of the many secrets that cannot be disclosed without causing grave damage to the United States. The Justice Department asked that the entire case be dismissed on national security grounds under the rarely used "state-secrets privilege."

Never passed by Congress, the state-secrets privilege has its roots in English common law and was cemented into American jurisprudence by a landmark 1953 Supreme Court case titled U.S. v. Reynolds. In Reynolds, the widows of three men who died in a mysterious Air Force crash sued the government, and U.S. officials quashed the lawsuit by claiming that they couldn't release any information about the accident without endangering national security. The Supreme Court upheld the claim, establishing a legal precedent that today allows the executive branch to block the release of information in any civil suit -- even if the government isn't the one being sued.

"It is an area of the law where the degree of deference from the court to the executive is at its highest," said Justice Department attorney Peter Keisler, who argued Friday that the case must be dismissed because its basic allegations can't be addressed without harming national security.

Acknowledging or disavowing any cooperation between the NSA and a particular telecommunications company, for example, would help terrorists communicate securely. "What the terrorist does when he decides to communicate ... is balance the risk that a particular communication will be intercepted against the operational inefficiencies" of finding another way to talk, said Keisler. Identifying a company as cooperating with the government would take some of the guesswork out of that assessment, and could even subject the company to terrorist reprisals.

But Walker showed some signs that he was taking a more nuanced look at the state-secrets privilege, and might consider making some information -- such as the existence or nonexistence of the attorney general's letter -- available for use in the case. "The state-secret privilege is not unlimited," Walker said.

Walker asked if the government would oppose the court retaining an expert to help sift through the classified evidence and evaluate its sensitivity; Keisler argued that such an analysis wouldn't show proper deference to the executive branch, and suggested it might prove problematic to grant such an expert the necessary security clearance.

For its part, EFF argued that the case can go forward without access to any government documents or testimony, thanks to the written statement and papers provided by former AT&T technician Mark Klein, which purports to show AT&T establishing a secure room in its San Francisco switching center to transmit intercepted internet traffic to the NSA.

EFF technical consultant J. Scott Marcus, a former FCC technology adviser, performed an analysis of the documents. Marcus concluded that AT&T's taps suck down about 10 percent of all U.S. internet traffic. The operation can pick up traffic transiting AT&T's network on its way somewhere else, so even non-AT&T customers are intercepted, he wrote.

"AT&T has constructed an extensive -- and expensive -- collection of infrastructure that collectively has all the capability necessary to conduct large-scale covert gathering of (internet protocol)-based communications information, not only for communications to overseas locations, but for purely domestic communications as well," Marcus wrote.

The government dismissed Klein's and Marcus' statements as "hearsay and speculation" Friday.

"They don't know as much as they think they know," said Keisler. AT&T agreed. "Pieces of cable go into a room," said company attorney Bruce Ericson. "That's as far as they take us."

There were few clues to where the judge was leaning Friday, but as the hearing drew to a close, he asked both sides how they would want to proceed should he deny the government's motion to dismiss -- suggesting he's considering allowing some portion of EFF's case to proceed.

Speaking to reporters outside the courthouse, whistle-blower Klein said the evidence he provided was sufficient to make the case, without exposing any national security secrets. AT&T, he said, helped with "massive interception, without warrant, of everyone's information."
 
SAN FRANCISCO -- It was perhaps inevitable that someone would compare President Bush's extrajudicial wiretapping operations to Richard Nixon's 1970s-era surveillance of journalists and political enemies. Both were carried out by Republican presidents; both bypassed the courts; both relied on the cooperation of U.S. telecommunications companies.


EXTRAJUDICIAL??????????????????

San Fran??????????????

Negates the whole damn thing

Cant wait for the earthquake to wipe the filth of San Fran from the US!
 
Don't be silly BB. There are some credible lawsuits and legal precedents that originate in even central California. The United States District Court for the Northern District of California covers a pretty big area: Alameda, Contra Costa, Del Norte, Humboldt, Lake, Marin, Mendocino, Monterey, Napa, San Benito, San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, and Sonoma counties. The court hears cases in its courtrooms in Eureka, Oakland, San Francisco, and San Jose. It is headquartered in San Francisco.

Your brush is a bit broad there. *nods*
 
Tough

Sometimes the good( :confused: ) get it with the bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

San Fran has already announced they will NOT uphold the law against ILLEGAL ALIENS

and there are so many other reasons as well

BTW, I want "people" like the Heritic to suffer the same fate

They are a danger to my family and myself.............and for that matter YOU and yours as well :cool:
 
Sometimes I worry that you're going to end up on a little tiny deserted island all by yourself.

Just because someone doesn't think the same way as I do doesn't make me wish ill to befall them. You and I see differently there, BB.
 
I don't think you're quite 'getting it' TSG.

It is the Bush administrations opinion that FISA is unconstitutional and they have every intention of defending a court challenge. The admins opinion is that congress can pass no law that interferes with the presidents constitutional obligation to protect the country from foriegn powers.

Certain elements in the country think FISA is the law of the land. The admin has said, in essence, fuck it, it's not and we're going to court.

In every single instance where similar cases have come before the courts, the past administrations have won. Even Clintons admin and even before the 9th court of appeals (and if you can't get it by the 9th, your chances are slim anywhere else). Sooo, the admin is dangling for a case before the SCOTUS to finally put this to rest. Don't be at all surprised if they prevail.

Ishmael
 
someplace said:
Sometimes I worry that you're going to end up on a little tiny deserted island all by yourself.

Just because someone doesn't think the same way as I do doesn't make me wish ill to befall them. You and I see differently there, BB.
It's just his little act. It makes him happy to make people here think that he's some loony Bushite.
I bet that in real life he voted for Nader.
 
someplace said:
Sometimes I worry that you're going to end up on a little tiny deserted island all by yourself.

Just because someone doesn't think the same way as I do doesn't make me wish ill to befall them. You and I see differently there, BB.
You miss the point BADLY!

I have NO problem whatsoever if someone disagrees with my POV

When that disagreement verges on affecting the safety of my counrty, ny family and myself, I have every right to wish them ill, and wish their demise!

The enemy wants to KILL as many of us as possible, that is a given, (at least to most sane observers)

Our country has to take protective measures to prevent attacks from them, that is a given (at least to most sane observers)

Yet we have so many that want us to ACT in a manner that would leave us defenseless............

that is MORE then different POV

Dont you think?

Hell, using YOUR logic of a different POV, I am wrong when I want MooseLimb terrorists DEAD................after all, all we have is a different POV!!!!!!!!!!!
 
KRCummings said:
It's just his little act. It makes him happy to make people here think that he's some loony Bushite.
I bet that in real life he voted for Nader.


No, I know he didn't vote for Nader. And we are friends. Sometimes my fingers have to call bullshit. Today must be such a day. I think I need chocolate.

BB understands.
 
KRCummings said:
It's just his little act. It makes him happy to make people here think that he's some loony Bushite.
I bet that in real life he voted for Nader.
Actually, if you have followed my writings you would know I dont like Bush at all!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
busybody said:
Actually, if you have followed my writings you would know I dont like Bush at all!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody follows your writings, BB. You know that.
 
someplace said:
No, I know he didn't vote for Nader. And we are friends. Sometimes my fingers have to call bullshit. Today must be such a day. I think I need chocolate.

BB understands.
I understand

I would like to point out something that I am sure you understand as well

Different POV's are ONE thing

POV's that seek OUR DEATH and DESTRUCTION are another!

I view POV's like the Heritics and the NYTimes as aiding our destruction!

You and I have had conversations about the Pat Act...................I agree it will be abused...............It doesnt matter, in these times, ITS NEEDED

I want you to read thru THIS

thread
 
busybody said:
You miss the point BADLY!

I have NO problem whatsoever if someone disagrees with my POV

When that disagreement verges on affecting the safety of my counrty, ny family and myself, I have every right to wish them ill, and wish their demise!

The enemy wants to KILL as many of us as possible, that is a given, (at least to most sane observers)

Our country has to take protective measures to prevent attacks from them, that is a given (at least to most sane observers)

Yet we have so many that want us to ACT in a manner that would leave us defenseless............

that is MORE then different POV

Dont you think?

Hell, using YOUR logic of a different POV, I am wrong when I want MooseLimb terrorists DEAD................after all, all we have is a different POV!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand what you're saying. Really I do. I also think it is wrong to blindly hand over all control to the government thinking they know what's best. There MUST be accountability and balance. I'm all for my government having the tools it needs to keep this country safe. I am not for them extending that power to use outside the law if it suits them or because they're too lazy to go through channels set up to protect the citizenry.

You and I both know you have to sift through the slants on every fucking piece of information that comes down the pike in order to get to the truth. You use the slants when it suits with your POV and cry bullshit when they don't. That doesn't negate the need for discussion on the subject, or hold certain things accountable.

And for discussion to take place in some circles, there has to be a bit more wiggle room than wishing people dead because they see things differently.
 
Okay. I'll read it after I cook dinner because I want to watch the Robert Duvall western.
 
KRCummings said:
Nobody follows your writings, BB. You know that.
I am aware I am on IGGY by the majority on LIT

I am also aware via multiple PMs that many share my POV and wish they could say so and comment in my threads, but are afraid of being branded LIT LOON LIB brigade.................Their words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Either way, Im having fun

And the PICS are nice! :D
 
someplace said:
I understand what you're saying. Really I do. I also think it is wrong to blindly hand over all control to the government thinking they know what's best. There MUST be accountability and balance. I'm all for my government having the tools it needs to keep this country safe. I am not for them extending that power to use outside the law if it suits them or because they're too lazy to go through channels set up to protect the citizenry.

.
You say blindly

I dont see it as blindly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do see accountability!

i also KNOW that the US doesnt have a HISTORY of mass abuse of its people, so I dont epect it now!

I also have seen NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that anything ILLEAGLE has been done
 
someplace said:
I understand what you're saying. Really I do. I also think it is wrong to blindly hand over all control to the government thinking they know what's best. There MUST be accountability and balance. I'm all for my government having the tools it needs to keep this country safe. I am not for them extending that power to use outside the law if it suits them or because they're too lazy to go through channels set up to protect the citizenry.

You and I both know you have to sift through the slants on every fucking piece of information that comes down the pike in order to get to the truth. You use the slants when it suits with your POV and cry bullshit when they don't. That doesn't negate the need for discussion on the subject, or hold certain things accountable.

And for discussion to take place in some circles, there has to be a bit more wiggle room than wishing people dead because they see things differently.

And that is the issue SP. It's constitutional in nature and the SCOTUS has to sort it out.

FISA was an outgrowth of the Church hearings in the 70's. Carter signed it into law. No president can give away constitutional powers just because a previous president allowed congress to pass a law. Bush is forcing the issue, as well he should.

The ACLU has filed suit and it's going to percolate up. In the end there will be a ruling.

Ishmael
 
I'd wager that all of this can be sorted out with a rock solid definition of 'war' as it pertains to the President's War Powers. i.e. What exactly constitutes an enemy in a 'war' and the difference between that and a military action against insurgents and terrorists or requested assistance to an allied country with the same.

The "War on Terror" is a misnomer, you can't wage war on an ideology as has been stated numerous times.

If you label every enemy captured in a 'war' an unlawful combatant then who is your true enemy? Unless your contention is that we are at war with fundamental Islam. In which case there truely is no end in sight either for the war or the loss of civil liberties.
 
Ulaven_Demorte said:
I'd wager that all of this can be sorted out with a rock solid definition of 'war' as it pertains to the President's War Powers. i.e. What exactly constitutes an enemy in a 'war' and the difference between that and a military action against insurgents and terrorists or requested assistance to an allied country with the same.

The "War on Terror" is a misnomer, you can't wage war on an ideology as has been stated numerous times.

If you label every enemy captured in a 'war' an unlawful combatant then who is your true enemy? Unless your contention is that we are at war with fundamental Islam. In which case there truely is no end in sight either for the war or the loss of civil liberties.
Deranged FOOL!
 
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