Assess this sentence?

[Madame Manga]

This is a line of dialogue I wrote a few days ago. The basic situation: a man has just confessed to a woman he loves that he feels as if he will break down if she ever leaves him, and that he is ashamed to sound so weak. She replies with sympathetic philosophy:

"The strongest of us have our fragile spots."

This line keeps bothering me. ;-) That is usually a signal to change it, but I am sticking on just how to do so. I think the problem with it, at least in my mind, is the ambiguity of 'the strongest of us'; it could be construed as either singular or plural. On analysis, 'have our' makes it clear that I meant the plural, but it's easy to read it the other way and hear an error. Some alternatives I have come up with:

"The strongest of us has his fragile spots."

This sits better with me in a grammatical sense, since it is unambiguous. However, it changes the plural to a singular and makes it seem specific to the particular man she is addressing, which in the context of the scene is not as appropriate. This should apply not only to him or to the mass of male humanity, but to all of humanity and the speaker as well. Yes, 'his' can be construed to mean 'his or her', but I don't think I can assume these days that the average American reader is going to take it that way.

"The strongest people have fragile spots."

I don't like the sound of this as well as I like the original. It keeps the plural, but it's too flat, too mundane for the character. She is a slightly flowery speaker with a flair for archaism (yeah, yeah, she talks like me--what of it?) Also, it removes 'us', which implicitly excludes her from the statement and renders it sententious.

"The strongest of us have their fragile spots."

Yucky. It keeps the plural, but 'us' fights with 'their'--is she including herself or not? I won't even mention 'has their fragile spots', because I cringe and gag at the use of 'their' as a neuter singular possessive.

Oh, help--I'm really running in circles now. ;-) Any suggestions?

MM

 

[MathGirl]

How about, "Even the strongest has trouble spots."

 

[Singularity]

A Slight Modification...

I would say:

"Even the strongest among us has a fragile spot"

This eliminates the mismatches that sound wrong to the ear.


S.

 

[MathGirl]

"Amongst the general population, it must be concluded that even those with great accomplishment and physical endowment are nonetheless not without blemish or flaw."

I think the above is called "disguising uncertainty with bullshit."
Helpfully,
MG

 

[Guest]

Madame: what jars me more is the word 'spots'. It calls to mind just that (e.g., acne, measles) and sounds inelegant.

I suggest: points, areas, states, zones, qualities, values (not sure just what you want to express).

I would also simply say “the strongest have their”; who is implied.

Or perhaps: Among the strongest one may find fragile qualities.

Best to you, Perdita

 

[Vincent E]

I would write the line:

The strongest of us has his frailties.

There is always a controversy around using the third person male in situations where the gender of people is unknown. I was taught that gender is irrelevant - the third person male is simply the default.

McGinty once said, "There is no sexism in English." Now I've given myself away.

Is everyone in his seat?
Does everyone have his coat?
Each reader has his favorite author.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Madame,

Maybe, "Even the strongest person has a fragile spot."

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.

RF

 

[Guest]

McGinty once said, "There is no sexism in English."

Oh, Vincent, lad. Read up on patriachy and phallocentrism. Men controlled language and its formalization for centuries, beginning with the Bible. All language is sexist, it's built in; most people are not substantively aware of it though.

You're young, and forgiveable; but just this once from me.

Perdita

 

[MNGuy]

Even the strongest, have weaknesses.

or

Even the strongest, have frailties.

 

[Madame Manga]

Frailties! Excellent word--thank you. That wipes out the spots. ;-) I am indebted to your ear, Perdita.

These days the use of the masculine pronoun as a default comes off as old-fashioned, but then so does standard grammar in general. ;-) For good or ill, I'm very aware of 'he' when the writer means 'everyone of either sex'; it's no longer transparent or neutral. But as I say, I despise 'Each writer will have their own preferences in this case.' It's as horrible a neologism as 'irregardless', or 'impact' used as a verb. Useful when you want to brand a speaker with bad taste, though. ;-)

What I don't want to do here is imply that the female speaker is letting herself off the hook. She might be understood as saying that she's tougher than any mere man--I've gotten into a few issues of sex differences with these characters. So perhaps the pronoun just has to go.

1. "The strongest of us has frailties."

or

2. "Frailties afflict the strongest of us."

To apply that to RF's suggestion:

3. "Even the strongest person has frailties."

Yeah, that makes me happier! Probably I will go with #1, since the significant word is in a better position. But #3 is also a good possibility.

MM

 

[Guest]

"The strongest of us has frailties."

I think that one's perfect, more personalized for the 'us'. How exciting to see something like this worked out; it's what I love about the writing process.

Let us know if you post.

best, Perdita

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

MM,

I still like beginning with, "Even," to me it makes the sentence sound less formal. But, IMHO, your choice is a good one.

RF

 

[Madame Manga]

'Even' makes a good emphasis, yes. My only real reason for choosing the more formal construction is the character, who insists on speaking in rounded periods. ;-) A lot of people wouldn't use 'frailties' either, but it fits her perfectly.

My real challenge in this story is to let her do her thing, but not to make her sound like a drip or a snob!

MM

 

[Rainbow Skin]

I can't see what's wrong with the original plural, or with variants that are still first person plural:

The strongest of us have our fragile spots.
The strongest of us have fragile spots.
The strongest of us have our frailties.
The strongest of us have frailties.

(Physically, spots may be weak points but they're not pliable or breakable, so use 'frailties' to remove this irrelevant association.)

The strongest of us has denotes the one singular person who is the strongest of us all, and that person has frailties. It could, in another context, imply that the rest of us, no matter how strong, haven't any. But it doesn't really, because it's clearly short for Even the strongest of us has, implying the rest of us do too.

But plural does no harm: The strongest of us have denotes that small group of us who are strongest, and we have these frailties. Same implicit sense of even as above: even we the strongest have them, and others less strong also have.

If you use a possessive pronoun, our is much better than their because it includes the speaker, which is what you want. In fact, I think their is borderline ungrammatical here, because 'us' is third person, so 'the strongest of us' should also be, and the frailties belong to the same person(s) so should be 'our', not 'their'. To use 'their' implies that 'the strongest of us' has singled out someone in our group who is neither you nor me: again not the implication you want.

 

[oggbashan]

The strongest chain has a weak link.

Og

 

[Vincent E]

But plural does no harm: The strongest of us have denotes that small group of us who are strongest, and we have these frailties. Same implicit sense of even as above: even we the strongest have them, and others less strong also have.

If you use a possessive pronoun, our is much better than their because it includes the speaker, which is what you want. In fact, I think their is borderline ungrammatical here, because 'us' is third person, so 'the strongest of us' should also be, and the frailties belong to the same person(s) so should be 'our', not 'their'. To use 'their' implies that 'the strongest of us' has singled out someone in our group who is neither you nor me: again not the implication you want.

The problem is that strongest is a singular adjective while our and their are plural pronouns. There needs to be agreement between the two. By switching between singular and plural you lose that agreement between adjective and pronoun. The reason these words often sound like they are correct is because of the sheer number of times people use them incorrectly.

That gets me back to McGinty's rule. I think we spend so much time not wanting to be politically incorrect that we often lose sight of the greater grammatical issues.

Grammatically you have few options. If you use the word strongest you are limited to singular pronouns his, hers, and its.

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

The strongest amongst us has frailties.

(originally I went for the more archaic The strongest amongst us hath frailties., but I think has works better in the flow.)

 

[Gabriel_Lee]

Sometimes, I think it's a wonder that anything gets written at all.

 

[Rainbow Skin]

The superlative is not singular: it only becomes so if you attach it to a singular noun. You can choose the five tallest students in the class for a basketball team. The ten richest people in the country own 90% of the land. The bravest and the best...

 

[MathGirl]

Even the strongest, have weaknesses.

And BS doesn't have a corner on awful AVs.
MG

 

[Guest]

and now for something totally different

MM-

I saw a totally different issue when I read your original statement, and would therefore shy away from "frailties". Frailty to me implies a shortcoming or a flaw. Having someone else as a necessity doesn't seem to be a flaw to me. I know it is a perceived weakness to him, but if my lover told me that this was his "weakness" I would rejoice.

IMHO, If the discussion is centered around character flaws, then frailty would work for me. If it is centered around his need for her, then I would use the word "needs" or some synonym.

Even the strongest people have needs. or

Admitting that we need each other doesn't make us weak. or

Only the strongest people acknowledge they have needs.

(MG, notice that I used a gerund just for you.)

b

 

[glspade]

just a thought...

This popped into my head:

"Even the strongest of us are fragile, once the costume and armour have been removed."

I don't know, but I had to kick it up for looks.

 

[gauchecritic]

Being strong incurs frailty

I'm really glad that I don't agonise over things I write, probably the reason that I don't alter many things when finished.

The header sentence is what I finally came up with but it is a re-write and that is why I agonise over critiquing too.

The other re-write was "The strongest of us encompass frailties".

Two different meanings I think, being strong means having frailties or to be strong we have to deal with frailty.

Whatever.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

Gauche, erm,

That's very fine agonizing. I like your two statements and the different meanings.

So, you'll critique my next 600 word snip, She frotted him hard up against the window casement, then?

Purr

 

[Quasimodem]

Am I too late to buy a ticket?

I chose:

Even the strongest contains some fragility.