Arousal vs desire... vs love.

[AG31]

The question of how to distinguish arousal and desire came to me a few days ago. One of those trivial analyses pretty much guaranteed to get some sort of response from the great conversationalists in AH.

But then yesterday I heard a sobering interview with someone (name escapes me) who had written a book about the impact of pornography on pre-adolescent and adolescent boys. (Maybe it was just part of a book). She said 14 year old boys have seen more pornography than soldiers during all of WWII. And the sobering part is that is diminishing their interest in (or ability to) realting to girls in real life.

And then there's love.

My own erotica thing (as contrasted with my real life erotic thing) is pretty devoid of relationships, or even desire. It consists of men getting physically aroused by strangers. So I understand arousal without desire. But is it common? Is it invading real life with enough force to change the way society is structured? Are we heading to a world where men masturbate to pornography and women are paid to get pregnant?

I keep thinking that society will cycle around and people will start yearning for and re-discovering face to face, flesh to flesh relationships.

Here is a link to a movie about this issue. If you resonate with it, pass it on to your friends.

 

[Jorunn]

Are men fearful of talking to a woman today for fear of rejection? Face to face must begin somewhere. Do they fear my angry kitten snarl? I can’t get them to loosen up unless I begin the conversation and touch them on the arm or offer a one-armed hug.

 

[AlinaX]

Arousal is a physiological state achieved through physical, mental or chemical stimulus.

Desire, in the way you suggest, is linked to sexual attraction, i.e., desire for sex with a specific person.

Love, in the way you suggest, is linked with romantic attraction, i.e., desire for romance with a specific person.

Traditional culture likes to tie these together, and in particular it says that arousal is part of sex, which in turn is part of romance. But they don't have to be connected in practice.

 

[ronde]

Are men fearful of talking to a woman today for fear of rejection? Face to face must begin somewhere. Do they fear my angry kitten snarl? I can’t get them to loosen up unless I begin the conversation and touch them on the arm or offer a one-armed hug.

It depends upon the age of the man and his confidence in himself. Lack of confidence can certainly cause a man to fear rejection because of the comments by some women, especially on social media, about what they consider to be a man they'd consider going out with.

It also depends upon how men have been taught to view women.

I've always found it interesting that while the covers on almost all romance novels show a muscular, good looking guy with a woman in his arms. He's definitely in control of the situation and the woman appears to be loving it. The contrast is the thinking of some women over the past decade or so that men of this type exhibit "toxic masculinity" and should be criticized and shunned. This puts young guys in difficult position. Do they follow their instincts to talk to a woman in hopes of beginning a relationship, or do they keep quiet so they're not criticized.

A second problem, particularly with men in the workplace, is the constant training by employers that nearly anything a man says to a woman can offend her to the point of filing a complaint of sexual harassment. I worked with a man who commented to a woman at work that she looked like "the lady in red" from the movie. He was telling her he thought she was beautiful. She "heard" him telling her she looked like a whore. He ended up having to apologize to her in order to keep his job.

I'm not defending the need to tone down some hyper-masculine men or to say that a man should be able to say anything to a woman and she's supposed to grin and bear it, but these two things can generate a reluctance of men to talk to women.

I would add, that by touching him, you're telling him it's OK to talk to you.

 

[ronde]

The question of how to distinguish arousal and desire came to me a few days ago. One of those trivial analyses pretty much guaranteed to get some sort of response from the great conversationalists in AH.

But then yesterday I heard a sobering interview with someone (name escapes me) who had written a book about the impact of pornography on pre-adolescent and adolescent boys. (Maybe it was just part of a book). She said 14 year old boys have seen more pornography than soldiers during all of WWII. And the sobering part is that is diminishing their interest in (or ability to) realting to girls in real life.

And then there's love.

My own erotica thing (as contrasted with my real life erotic thing) is pretty devoid of relationships, or even desire. It consists of men getting physically aroused by strangers. So I understand arousal without desire. But is it common? Is it invading real life with enough force to change the way society is structured? Are we heading to a world where men masturbate to pornography and women are paid to get pregnant?

I keep thinking that society will cycle around and people will start yearning for and re-discovering face to face, flesh to flesh relationships.

Here is a link to a movie about this issue. If you resonate with it, pass it on to your friends.

I don't think it's necessarily true that 14 year old boys have seen more porn than soldiers in WWII. There are many examples of pretty explicit comics, pictures, and videos from the 1940's, and I remember reading erotica when I was still in high school. It is true that because of VHS tapes and later, the internet, there is more opportunity for young boys to view porn, but not that there is less available.

I don't think the problem is the amount of porn. It's the lack of parental guidance as to your other two topics - desire and romance. I believe that young girls get a lot fuller education from their mothers about sex. That's because women have the most at risk if they engage in sex and especially unprotected sex. Their mothers want them to be at least forewarned. Boys, if they get anything, get the standard "tab A goes into slot B, repeat as necessary".

Men have been becoming aroused since time began. It's automatic and uncontrollable. It used to be just seeing a woman's ankles, progressed to her legs, and now is anything the woman cares to show. I would argue that women also experience arousal. They just won't tell many people about being aroused.

Desire is arousal tempered by how the man views a woman. Is she approachable? Is she safe? The point is a man might become aroused by a porn movie, but wouldn't desire the woman in the movie for a variety of reasons related to his moral code and her status relative to his.

I'm a firm believer that love begins with a social relationship, and only progresses to a sexual relationship once both parties know each other pretty well.

Go to any bar on a Saturday night and you'll see plenty of face to face happening. It's not dead. It's just gone undercover a little.

 

[Britva415]

I understand arousal without desire

I’ll take your word for it, but, it isn’t clear to me what “arousal without desire” means to you?

Do you mean, “without desire for another particular person?”

Just asking because to me, the difference between arousal and desire is just whether one wants to do something about it or not. Mastubation is a manifestation of desire. Desire could be caused by arousal, or it could cause arousal.

We’re probably (?) on the same page about how those aren’t the same thing.

 

[Britva415]

Are men fearful of talking to a woman today for fear of rejection?

Yes, and

It isn’t just abut rejection. I can’t adequately describe how frequently I see men, online and in real life, seemingly sincerely saying they fear getting canceled, metoo’d, and literally fired and arrested for “approaching while male.”

Three parallel (but aLmOsT cErTaInLy NoT iN aNy WaY related ) phenomena are all the women complaining that they can’t get picked up or have their (subtle signs of) interest reciprocated, and, asking where tf all the nice guys are, and, mistreating innocent guys with behaviors like calling them creeps, ghosting them, and spreading false rumors about them.

Now: Every time I hear a guy bellyaching about not daring to approach because they (say they) literally believe they could get sent to jail for flirting, I sprain my eyeballs rolling them. Where tf is your perspective, my dude.

(Honestly, not all of the guys who say this do literally believe it. A lot seem to, but half of them are probably just saying this because it doesn't make them feel as inadequate as just saying "I fear rejection" does.)

Now: The reason this has come about — guys not having the berries to approach, women feeling bereft of attention and available men — is because creepy guys ruined it for everyone. So this is where guys have to call other guys out: Don't be creepy. Don't be predators. Don't be abusers. Don't be dicks. Don't do it at work, FFS! But guys have to lift each other up, too, so, guys? Don't be afraid to not be creepy and to go approach anyway. As long as you have some common sense, have some common decency, and have the capability to read the room, the risk really is nowhere near what you're making it out to be.

Rejection? That's a whole 'nother matter, but, guys, have the brass to get rejected, too. It doesn't mean you can't ever try again with anyone else ever. Just have a gracious attitude and move on and try again. Keep the stakes low - don't expect the result of a flirt to be anything greater than having fun flirting. If you get a number, that's just a bonus. If you get a date, that's an extra bonus. If you can't have fun flirting for its own sake, that's the kind of neediness which turns women off.

If you can be non-needy, you're far far more likely to have the flirting go somewhere.

When you keep the stakes that low, then, there really isn't even such a thing as rejection at all, because the only expectation you had in the first place was to have fun flirting and maybe even share that fun with her, too. If she doesn't have fun with it, you just cut it out, but, you didn't want, need, or seek anything from her in the first place, so, you're immune to rejection when you keep the stakes low but raise the flirt energy high.

 

[Britva415]

I don't think the problem is the amount of porn. It's the lack of parental guidance

Same difference. Whether the amount of porn is greater today or not, it's absolutely easier to access, and it's easier to access a much, much larger volume of it. A kid in 1940 or 1950 might have had two, three magazines which have been passed around and used many times. Today a kid can watch a brand-new live-action video he's never seen before every 60 seconds if he wants. Three generations ago, the likelihood that a kid would have access to BDSM, group, gay, interracial, Asian, I mean, pick almost any "specialized" porn besides white cishet vanilla porn is near zero. Today those are all thrust at kids without them even lifting a finger to look for it.

So I don't think we can sincerely say the problem isn't bigger than it used to be or that there's not a lot more porn. What that means is that there's a greater need than ever for parental guidance, and we're on the same page as far as the need for that goes.

 

[Dearelliot]

Re porn and the 19forties...I was born in 1934, and there was darn little...National Geographics was my go to porn for bare breasted natives.

 

[Dearelliot]

A few things: As far as approaching ladies..Sure in bars I did it all of my life..no problem and also other places..Not so sure how I would do in today's world..I'd be a bit cautious.

Also re sex and love...That to me would mean with my wife, who lost interest years ago. And before she lost interest, it was sporadic as hell.

Someone once told me about 5 % of women have the drive of a man...And I suppose that 5% would argue vehemently that all women have the sex drive unaware how different they are. Now it could be just me, but for all of my life I've heard guys complaining about sex from their wife...But I am old so maybe things have changed/

 

[alohadave]

Are men fearful of talking to a woman today for fear of rejection? Face to face must begin somewhere. Do they fear my angry kitten snarl? I can’t get them to loosen up unless I begin the conversation and touch them on the arm or offer a one-armed hug.

There are too many variables to give a simple answer. And everyone is different, so what applies to me won't necessarily apply to anyone else.

Personally, I'm shy and timid in person, and a poor conversationalist, so it's difficult for me to talk anyone up. No matter how much I may be attracted to or like someone, I'm not going to be good to talk to until I'm familiar and comfortable with you.

 

[NotWise]

Maybe this goes to the question, maybe not.

I read an article a few months ago that reported statistical analysis of some 600 people writing about their sexual attitudes. It was research by and for Psychologists.

One of the statistical divisions they found in their work was between people who could be aroused without a relationship, and those who needed a relationship to become aroused. Almost as an aside, they pointed out that people who described a need for a relationship to become aroused also predictably reported a problem becoming aroused.

If nothing else, it seems to explain the Romance genre.

 

[PapaRomantic]

Now: The reason this has come about — guys not having the berries to approach, women feeling bereft of attention and available men — is because creepy guys ruined it for everyone. So this is where guys have to call other guys out: Don't be creepy. Don't be predators. Don't be abusers. Don't be dicks.

With these two lines, you've pretty much summed up the history of Literotica men trying to hit on Literotica women.

 

[AG31]

Do they follow their instincts to talk to a woman in hopes of beginning a relationship, or do they keep quiet so they're not criticized.

is the constant training by employers that nearly anything a man says to a woman can offend her to the point of filing a complaint of sexual harassment.

Yeah, I gotta say that these phenomena give me slivers of sympathy for the political right

I would argue that women also experience arousal. They just won't tell many people about being aroused.

I don't think they experience knee jerk arousal the way (some?) men can. At least most of them don't. Somewhere up thread 5% was cited as the number of women experiencing this sort of arousal.

I’ll take your word for it, but, it isn’t clear to me what “arousal without desire” means to you?

Do you mean, “without desire for another particular person?”

Arousal without desire can occur in a person being displayed naked before a crowd of strangers and getting aroused from the situation.

Mastubation is a manifestation of desire.

I think "desire" requires an object. Who/what's the object when a person is masturbating?

National Geographics was my go to porn for bare breasted natives.

Ahhh!! Good ol' National Geographic!!!!

 

[Britva415]

I think "desire" requires an object. Who/what's the object when a person is masturbating?

To me, it's just a desire to get off, in that case.

Or, it's desire for a particular person but without them present. The desire is still for them, and you're still acting on it and (in a limited way) satisfying the desire.

Or, desire can result in having sex with someone you aren't really that interested in. There's desire for sex, but not necessarily desire for that person, as if you wanted to be their partner.

That's (a part of) what it is to me. It seems you meant it as "desire for someone specific," so, I'm glad I asked.

 

[Comshaw]

The question of how to distinguish arousal and desire came to me a few days ago. One of those trivial analyses pretty much guaranteed to get some sort of response from the great conversationalists in AH.

But then yesterday I heard a sobering interview with someone (name escapes me) who had written a book about the impact of pornography on pre-adolescent and adolescent boys. (Maybe it was just part of a book). She said 14 year old boys have seen more pornography than soldiers during all of WWII. And the sobering part is that is diminishing their interest in (or ability to) realting to girls in real life.

And then there's love.

My own erotica thing (as contrasted with my real life erotic thing) is pretty devoid of relationships, or even desire. It consists of men getting physically aroused by strangers. So I understand arousal without desire. But is it common? Is it invading real life with enough force to change the way society is structured? Are we heading to a world where men masturbate to pornography and women are paid to get pregnant?

I keep thinking that society will cycle around and people will start yearning for and re-discovering face to face, flesh to flesh relationships.

Here is a link to a movie about this issue. If you resonate with it, pass it on to your friends.

First off, I am confused by the differentiation between arousal and desire. I can't see where the two can be separated. Would you be so kind as to clarify for me how you see the difference? For me the two can't be separated. If I see a stranger and get aroused by them it's because I desire to have sex with them. So the two go hand in hand.

I don't understand how seeing, even copious amounts, of porn would diminish relating to girls in RL. The book author is discounting the fertile imagination of humans. Go way back and picture the underwear section of a Sears or Montgomery Wards catalog, couple that to the mind of a horny male and you have self-made porn that could rival any produced today.

Are we heading to a world where men masturbate to pornography and women are paid to get pregnant?

Possibly, but not for a long time to come. Masturbation is fun. Most guys (I'd say 99.99999999%) do on a regular basis. But I also think that the sensation of physical contact of two lovers having sex transcends any type of self-gratification. I've seen some very lifelike sex dolls for sale. And reading about some of the robotized new ones it appears they are getting pretty good at emulating a sex partner. But it ain't the same and won't be for a long time. Those dolls are going to have to be interactive, smell, taste, feel and act like a real person. And even when they do, the person using one is still going to know they aren't real.

Just my on the subject.


Comshaw

 

[AG31]

First off, I am confused by the differentiation between arousal and desire. I can't see where the two can be separated. Would you be so kind as to clarify for me how you see the difference?

Consider a man who is aroused by being put on public display, naked, before strangers. He has no desire to interact with them.

I don't understand how seeing, even copious amounts, of porn would diminish relating to girls in RL. The book author is discounting the fertile imagination of humans.

Well, it sounded like she was reporting actual observations of teenage behavior. Sorry I can't recall her or the book.

 

[AG31]

First off, I am confused by the differentiation between arousal and desire. I can't see where the two can be separated. Would you be so kind as to clarify for me how you see the difference?

I posted this over in Fetish and Sexuality Central.

It's titled "To what degree are fetishes connected to relationships?" and the content is "In other words, might someone with a foot fetish be aroused by a foot regardless of who the owner of the foot is?"

 

[Britva415]

I am confused by the differentiation between arousal and desire. I can't see where the two can be separated

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/arousal-vs-desire-vs-love.1630570/post-100702267

Arousal is having a boner.

Desire is wishing to do something with it together with another person - even if it isn't presently stiff at all (not aroused).

Arousal is "what is your body doing." Desire is "what do you feel or want."

They often pair up but they aren't the same thing.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I was never a 14-year-old boy, so I don't think I have much to contribute here. From what I saw when I was young and living on the streets, boys and men aren't, as a rule, interested in much more than getting off. Sure, some want love, kids, the picket fence, and to make her happy. Many more think to fit in, they have to act like they want those things. I think, for a lot of men, those who aren't nice guys, it's about controlling and dominating. Whether it is from an overabundance of the availability of porn or just machismo, I don't know.

It was quite common for middle-aged men to fuck me and then say how I looked to be the same age as their daughter and shouldn't be doing this. You'd think, if he really meant that, he'd tell me before and just give me the money and go home thanking whatever power he believes in that his kids aren't out walking the streets.

 

[Comshaw]

I posted this over in Fetish and Sexuality Central.

It's titled "To what degree are fetishes connected to relationships?" and the content is "In other words, might someone with a foot fetish be aroused by a foot regardless of who the owner of the foot is?"

Thanks. I think I might be getting a hint of how you see the difference. Sometimes when we are sunk in our own reality and believe that is all there is it's difficult to see outside that box, but I try.

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/arousal-vs-desire-vs-love.1630570/post-100702267

Arousal is having a boner.

Desire is wishing to do something with it together with another person - even if it isn't presently stiff at all (not aroused).

Arousal is "what is your body doing." Desire is "what do you feel or want."

They often pair up but they aren't the same thing.

Thanks. I understand your explanation and it makes sense. For me though one can't be without the other. I've never popped a boner unless it was accompanied by the desire to have sex. And I've never had the desire to have sex with someone with it causing a boner. So for me they are conjoined and inseparable.

Comshaw

 

[MillieDynamite]

Arousal is the physical response to outside stimuli. Desire is an emotional reaction to what one sees or hears. Love is a chemical reaction from bonding and becomes a choice made every day if you are to stay in love! Thus, spake the Dynamite in thunderous tones, resounding through the thread. Or maybe it's all bullshit.

 

[Comshaw]

Arousal is the physical response to outside stimuli. Desire is an emotional reaction to what one sees or hears. Love is a chemical reaction from bonding and becomes a choice made every day if you are to stay in love! Thus, spake the Dynamite in thunderous tones, resounding through the thread. Or maybe it's all bullshit.

Millie shoveling bullshit??? Lord help us!

 

[MillieDynamite]

I can shovel it, sling it with the best of them. I've mucked out barns since 2005. But that was horse shit not bullshit but shits shit.

Millie shoveling bullshit??? Lord help us!

 

[Comshaw]

I can shovel it, sling it with the best of them. I've mucked out barns since 2005. But that was horse shit not bullshit but shits shit.

I have no doubt about that. And I expect that shit ends up right where it should, be it in a manure pile or heaped someone's ego.

Comshaw