Are women opting out of feminism?

LadyJeanne

deluded
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Posts
5,885
My sister sent me this article - it's very long, but if you have the inclination, it's an interesting read. The claim is the feminist movement of the 70s in the US made it possible for women to break into educational institutions and the working world, but didn't change attitudes at home about gender roles. Women graduating from elite educational institutions today, whom feminists would expect to be competing for the boardroom positions and law firm partnerships, are dropping out to raise kids - and didn't necessarily intend to ever pursue careers after they married and had kids. This is a change from women graduating in the early 80's, a majority of whom intended to pursue careers and have families.

I have to agree that this is could be a trend, at least in my experience - all my friends from college who are mommies stopped working as soon as they had the first baby. And have never returned to the workforce despite having had well-paying jobs, MBA's, law degrees, and PhD's. I think they're lucky to have the choice to stay home to raise their own kids, but I wonder what will happen to them once the divorces begin and they're on their own with little work experience and no 401(k).


Homeward Bound

I. The Truth About Elite Women
Half the wealthiest, most-privileged, best-educated females in the country stay home with their babies rather than work in the market economy. When in September The New York Times featured an article exploring a piece of this story, “Many Women at Elite Colleges Set Career Path to Motherhood,” the blogosphere went ballistic, countering with anecdotes and sarcasm. Slate’s Jack Shafer accused the Times of “weasel-words” and of publishing the same story -- essentially, “The Opt-Out Revolution” -- every few years, and, recently, every few weeks. (A month after the flap, the Times’ only female columnist, Maureen Dowd, invoked the elite-college article in her contribution to the Times’ running soap, “What’s a Modern Girl to Do?” about how women must forgo feminism even to get laid.) The colleges article provoked such fury that the Times had to post an explanation of the then–student journalist’s methodology on its Web site.

There’s only one problem: There is important truth in the dropout story. Even though it appeared in The New York Times.

I stumbled across the news three years ago when researching a book on marriage after feminism. I found that among the educated elite, who are the logical heirs of the agenda of empowering women, feminism has largely failed in its goals. There are few women in the corridors of power, and marriage is essentially unchanged. The number of women at universities exceeds the number of men. But, more than a generation after feminism, the number of women in elite jobs doesn’t come close.

Why did this happen? The answer I discovered -- an answer neither feminist leaders nor women themselves want to face -- is that while the public world has changed, albeit imperfectly, to accommodate women among the elite, private lives have hardly budged. The real glass ceiling is at home.

~

Among the affluent-educated-married population, women are letting their careers slide to tend the home fires. If my interviewees are working, they work largely part time, and their part-time careers are not putting them in the executive suite.

~

II. The Failure of Choice Feminism
What is going on? Most women hope to marry and have babies. If they resist the traditional female responsibilities of child-rearing and householding, what Arlie Hochschild called “The Second Shift,” they are fixing for a fight. But elite women aren’t resisting tradition. None of the stay-at-home brides I interviewed saw the second shift as unjust; they agree that the household is women’s work. As one lawyer-bride put it in explaining her decision to quit practicing law after four years, “I had a wedding to plan.” Another, an Ivy Leaguer with a master’s degree, described it in management terms: “He’s the CEO and I’m the CFO. He sees to it that the money rolls in and I decide how to spend it.” It’s their work, and they must do it perfectly. “We’re all in here making fresh apple pie,” said one, explaining her reluctance to leave her daughters in order to be interviewed. The family CFO described her activities at home: “I take my [3-year-old] daughter to all the major museums. We go to little movement classes.”

Conservatives contend that the dropouts prove that feminism “failed” because it was too radical, because women didn’t want what feminism had to offer. In fact, if half or more of feminism’s heirs (85 percent of the women in my Times sample), are not working seriously, it’s because feminism wasn’t radical enough: It changed the workplace but it didn’t change men, and, more importantly, it didn’t fundamentally change how women related to men.

~

IV. Why Do We Care?
The privileged brides of the Times -- and their husbands -- seem happy. Why do we care what they do? After all, most people aren’t rich and white and heterosexual, and they couldn’t quit working if they wanted to.

We care because what they do is bad for them, is certainly bad for society, and is widely imitated, even by people who never get their weddings in the Times. This last is called the “regime effect,” and it means that even if women don’t quit their jobs for their families, they think they should and feel guilty about not doing it. That regime effect created the mystique around The Feminine Mystique, too.

As for society, elites supply the labor for the decision-making classes -- the senators, the newspaper editors, the research scientists, the entrepreneurs, the policy-makers, and the policy wonks. If the ruling class is overwhelmingly male, the rulers will make mistakes that benefit males, whether from ignorance or from indifference. Media surveys reveal that if only one member of a television show’s creative staff is female, the percentage of women on-screen goes up from 36 percent to 42 percent. A world of 84-percent male lawyers and 84-percent female assistants is a different place than one with women in positions of social authority. Think of a big American city with an 86-percent white police force. If role models don’t matter, why care about Sandra Day O’Connor? Even if the falloff from peak numbers is small, the leveling off of women in power is a loss of hope for more change. Will there never again be more than one woman on the Supreme Court?
 
Thank you for posting the article, Lady Jeanne.

I should just post a 'bump' and hope others will comment, as my position on the issue is rather well known and soundly criticized.

If there is an answer or an understanding to be gained from considering this issue and all that it entails, I suggest it can only come from a close consideration of the basic nature of both man and woman.

Rather than just 'male domination' throughout history, I tend to think that the traditional relationship between men and women evolved in a very natural way so as to satisfy both and, perhaps most important, provide a stable environment for the nurturing of offspring.

Be interesting to see how others respond.


amicus....the most rude of all the Nation States, with the rowdiest kids and the highest crime rate (I must be doin sumpin right)
 
Some people seem to have an agenda to either attack or defend feminism.

The fact that more affluent women are opting out of full-time work to raising kids than previously is probably due to the fact that people are generally better off now. I don't see that bringing up children has an enormous bearing on feminist thinking one way or another.

Anyone who gives up work for an extended period is going to hurt their job chances. It's a calcuated risk, which quite a few men take too.
 
LadyJeanne said:
We care because what they do is bad for them, is certainly bad for society, and is widely imitated, even by people who never get their weddings in the Times.

To be honest, I will give money to anyone who can convince me that this is bad for them or bad for society. In the best possible scenario, children need a parent at home as often as possible, whether father or mother. I'd have said that raising and looking after your children personally rather than putting them into a nursery from a ridiculously young age would be a great good for society. What's wrong with wanting the best for your children?

I don't think it's necessarily 'women's work' (as men are quite capable of being a house husband for a few years). I don't think it's going to end civilised society for a parent to take time from work to stay home with their kids.

The Earl
 
Sub Joe said:
Some people seem to have an agenda to either attack or defend feminism.

The fact that more affluent women are opting out of full-time work to raising kids than previously is probably due to the fact that people are generally better off now. I don't see that bringing up children has an enormous bearing on feminist thinking one way or another.

Anyone who gives up work for an extended period is going to hurt their job chances. It's a calcuated risk, which quite a few men take too.

It's interesting that you bring this up. One of things that really struck me when I read the "Opt-Out Revolution" story is this:

" ...the exodus of professional women from the workplace isn't really about motherhood at all. It is really about work. ''There's a misconception that it's mostly a pull toward motherhood and her precious baby that drives a woman to quit her job, or apparently, her entire career,'' she says. ''Not that the precious baby doesn't magnetize many of us. Mine certainly did. As often as not, though, a woman would have loved to maintain some version of a career, but that job wasn't cutting it anymore. Among women I know, quitting is driven as much from the job-dissatisfaction side as from the pull-to-motherhood side.''

She compares all this to a romance gone sour. ''Timing one's quitting to coincide with a baby is like timing a breakup to coincide with graduation,'' she says. ''It's just a whole lot easier than breaking up in the middle of senior year.''


Women aren't necessarily leaving the workplace because of the children - they're leaving because the workplace isn't so satifsying and using child-raising as their ticket out.

Again, my 'evidence' is anecdotal, but this is exactly what I've seen among my friends. It's not that they're so into being mothers, it's more that they don't want to work, not the kind of high-pressure, high-commitment types of jobs that men are willing to do to succeed in their professions. They really hated their jobs and were relieved to have a 'good' reason to quit.

Women and men define success differently. The workplace is open to women now, but it doesn't seem to be meeting their needs for what they want out of life.
 
TheEarl said:
To be honest, I will give money to anyone who can convince me that this is bad for them or bad for society. In the best possible scenario, children need a parent at home as often as possible, whether father or mother. I'd have said that raising and looking after your children personally rather than putting them into a nursery from a ridiculously young age would be a great good for society. What's wrong with wanting the best for your children?

I don't think it's necessarily 'women's work' (as men are quite capable of being a house husband for a few years). I don't think it's going to end civilised society for a parent to take time from work to stay home with their kids.

The Earl

I agree with you, up to the point where these same women are left vulnerable in the event of divorce. With the divorce rate at 50%, half these women may have to face divorce and be forced to start their lives from scratch. It's bad for them in that it makes them dependent on men for their survival and doesn't leave them much of a safety net.
 
amicus said:
Thank you for posting the article, Lady Jeanne.

I should just post a 'bump' and hope others will comment, as my position on the issue is rather well known and soundly criticized.

If there is an answer or an understanding to be gained from considering this issue and all that it entails, I suggest it can only come from a close consideration of the basic nature of both man and woman.

Rather than just 'male domination' throughout history, I tend to think that the traditional relationship between men and women evolved in a very natural way so as to satisfy both and, perhaps most important, provide a stable environment for the nurturing of offspring.

Be interesting to see how others respond.


amicus....the most rude of all the Nation States, with the rowdiest kids and the highest crime rate (I must be doin sumpin right)

I knew you'd find this interesting. ;)

I don't know how much of it is about wanting to nurture and how much of it is wanting to escape the pressures of working, though. I took a year-long sabbatical last year, and I would never have returned to work if that made any practical sense. Work sucks. High paying, high profile jobs suck. Yet everyone I knew thought I was nuts for quitting, despite my working out a great severance package. No one would have thought I was nuts if I'd quit to take care of a baby.

I don't get excited about winning deals. Were I married, I suspect I'd have been talking baby right about then, because nothing else would be an acceptable reason to just quit working for a while.
 
I've always thought that feminism was about choice- giving us the choices that men have had and the ability to puruse what we want (again giving us the choice).
But then I'm a stay at home mom, going to school full time and in the process of a divorce.
 
LadyJeanne said:
I agree with you, up to the point where these same women are left vulnerable in the event of divorce. With the divorce rate at 50%, half these women may have to face divorce and be forced to start their lives from scratch. It's bad for them in that it makes them dependent on men for their survival and doesn't leave them much of a safety net.

To be honest, although I am leaving myself wide open, with a sign on my back of "PLEASE KICK HERE", I would say that a large proportion of those divorces which involve children, the child shouldn't have been had and that maybe some more caution should've been taken before deciding to have a child.

Yes, I'm very very aware that there are many, many, many exceptions and caveats, but there are a few people who rush into marriage and rush into raising children before realising that they're not forever after all.

And it's not just women. I can name one friend who was a house husband to his high-powered wife, who moved them to Canada for her job, advanced her career, let him look after the children until they were old enough for school and then told him she wanted a divorce cause she was seeing someone else. He had no Canadian passport, no job, no work-permit and no way to stay in Canada to even be with his children, who were pretty much guaranteed to stay with their mother due to her job, despite him having been the primary carer for years.

Thankfully, he discovered a Canadian ancestor allowing him to claim nationality, which has left her royally screwed as far as any court case and having to support him and his new girlfriend (which I think is poetic justice personally).

Just pointing out that it's not exclusively a female problem and although mostly owmen, it's disingenuous to talk about feminism.

The Earl
 
I don't understand the full-time school + stay-at-home Mom. You must get through a lot of coffee!
 
LadyJeanne said:
Women aren't necessarily leaving the workplace because of the children - they're leaving because the workplace isn't so satifsying and using child-raising as their ticket out.
I'm sure there are stats that bear this out, but I wonder if anyone is looking into why the workplace is so unsatisfying for women. For myself, I believe that feminism has done as much disservice to women as it has made a positive impact on some areas. When women do remain in the workplace, in those high-powered positions, they still make much less than men, even when they do a better job. That has to be frustrating for women in that position. Why work so much harder for equal recognition? I could go on and on about that, but I won't bore you with my soapbox.

As for myself, yes, I'm an intelligent, educated woman who has spent years moving up the ladder of success into positions of greater authority and power. However, if given the opportunity to drop out of the workforce and head a household, you bet I'd do it in a heartbeat. When I did stay home full time (before my kids were school aged), it allowed me to do all the things I wanted to do for my family and to spend a lot more time with my kids. Does that make me less of a feminist? I don't think so. I think feminism is about giving women greater choices - and I chose to be a mom instead of an executive.

Having done both, I disagree with the faction that says you can have it all. Sure you can. If you're juiced on caffeine, running Mach 4 from dawn til midnight. I'd rather be the person raising my kids, not have them spending hours a day with a babysitter. I like making home cooked meals and baking cookies. I loved being a scout leader and a room mother. And yes, I have an IQ that falls within the top 3%. So what, if what I'm doing is what I want and is best for my family? That's what it should be about, anyway.

Okay, off my soapbox. :eek:
 
Sub Joe said:
I don't understand the full-time school + stay-at-home Mom. You must get through a lot of coffee!

Only two cups a day or I bounce off the walls. And my secret is that I'm able to get my degree online, so I can take my classes while the kids play in the same room with me.
 
sophia jane said:
I've always thought that feminism was about choice- giving us the choices that men have had and the ability to puruse what we want (again giving us the choice).
But then I'm a stay at home mom, going to school full time and in the process of a divorce.


Is it a choice if society's belief that women are responsible for home and family is what's driving the decision?

I'm not advocating that women shouldn't be able to make that choice; I'm just wondering if our attitudes toward gender roles have really changed much and if it matters.
 
LadyJeanne said:
Is it a choice if society's belief that women are responsible for home and family is what's driving the decision?

I'm not advocating that women shouldn't be able to make that choice; I'm just wondering if our attitudes toward gender roles have really changed much and if it matters.

Ok. Gotcha.
Has society's view of women and home and family changed? Maybe a little, just in that women are increasingly standing up and saying they don't want marriage and children, or they're waiting longer to have them. But I definitely see that the burden of being the caretaker for the kids and home continually falls on mom, whether she works or not.
 
TheEarl said:
To be honest, I will give money to anyone who can convince me that this is bad for them or bad for society. In the best possible scenario, children need a parent at home as often as possible, whether father or mother. I'd have said that raising and looking after your children personally rather than putting them into a nursery from a ridiculously young age would be a great good for society. What's wrong with wanting the best for your children?
I won't take money from a young student, love, but your focus is near pedantic, as are most personal takes on such large issues (feminism, motherhood, the family, the sexes, etc.)

It is NOT the nuclear family, nor the mum-at-home that gives a child security and preparation for his or her place in the world. O, my dear, it is only Love. Sometimes only one parent can give it fully, sometimes it's a grandparent, or an aunt or uncle, sometimes it's not required that it be a 24/7 experience. But - whatever the source - if Love is missing no amount of traditional trappings will make the trek to adulthood and wholeness better, however it might ease the workings of society.

Pear
 
BeachGurl2 said:
I'm sure there are stats that bear this out, but I wonder if anyone is looking into why the workplace is so unsatisfying for women. For myself, I believe that feminism has done as much disservice to women as it has made a positive impact on some areas. When women do remain in the workplace, in those high-powered positions, they still make much less than men, even when they do a better job. That has to be frustrating for women in that position. Why work so much harder for equal recognition? I could go on and on about that, but I won't bore you with my soapbox.

As for myself, yes, I'm an intelligent, educated woman who has spent years moving up the ladder of success into positions of greater authority and power. However, if given the opportunity to drop out of the workforce and head a household, you bet I'd do it in a heartbeat. When I did stay home full time (before my kids were school aged), it allowed me to do all the things I wanted to do for my family and to spend a lot more time with my kids. Does that make me less of a feminist? I don't think so. I think feminism is about giving women greater choices - and I chose to be a mom instead of an executive.

Having done both, I disagree with the faction that says you can have it all. Sure you can. If you're juiced on caffeine, running Mach 4 from dawn til midnight. I'd rather be the person raising my kids, not have them spending hours a day with a babysitter. I like making home cooked meals and baking cookies. I loved being a scout leader and a room mother. And yes, I have an IQ that falls within the top 3%. So what, if what I'm doing is what I want and is best for my family? That's what it should be about, anyway.

Okay, off my soapbox. :eek:

I agree with what you've said, especially what I think you were implying, about the ridiculous "superwoman" image which belittles a lot of hard-working women who know it's yet another Media-created myth.

That "superwoman" image is wrongly attributed to feminism. And surely, if anyone is to blame for disparity in the workplace (and shit is so much simpler when you can find someone to blame) it's men, not feminism, that are more to blame.
 
BeachGurl2 said:
I'm sure there are stats that bear this out, but I wonder if anyone is looking into why the workplace is so unsatisfying for women. For myself, I believe that feminism has done as much disservice to women as it has made a positive impact on some areas. When women do remain in the workplace, in those high-powered positions, they still make much less than men, even when they do a better job. That has to be frustrating for women in that position. Why work so much harder for equal recognition? I could go on and on about that, but I won't bore you with my soapbox.

Whether a woman is in a high powered position or not, she still makes less than a man and still has to work harder. I've no doubt whatsoever that this contributes to their job dissatisfaction. I think this is also a big part of the reason that the numbers of women who leave their jobs to start their own businesses has been increasing.
 
Is it a choice if society's belief that women are responsible for home and family is what's driving the decision?

well... *somebody* has to be the mommy... :rolleyes:

Reminds me of that "Mad About You" when Jamie is working at that high powered job with the Mayor and Paul says something about "taking care of the baby" and she says, "Why should *I* do it? Because I'm the Mommy?" And then she sits down hard with this realization, "I'M the MOMMY!"

At least in the first year, if you're nursing a baby, mommy is usually the mommy... now, you can leave a 6 week old at daycare if you like... and feed them formula... or pump... but *someone* still has to be the mommy... i.e. the primary caregiver and nurturer... biologically, it seems to work out well if it's the mommy, at least at first...

but then again, we are so far removed now from whatever primary patterns we once lived in as tribes of humans, that it's hard to know what to do in this culture...
 
sophia jane said:
I've always thought that feminism was about choice- giving us the choices that men have had and the ability to puruse what we want (again giving us the choice).
But then I'm a stay at home mom, going to school full time and in the process of a divorce.


That is exactly what feminism is about. Choice.

Having the choice, whether it be to stay at home and raise the children, or pursue a career at whatever level. Previously, women had no choice. None at all, once marriage and then children came along.

In the past, when a woman went into nursing or teaching, if she got married, she had to leave. The authorities would not employ married women.

Great career incentive. Also a great incentive to lie.

Women may not be high fliers, but women do, as you prove from your own post, multi-task incredibly well. We do many things well, rather than focus on one thing.

I gave up a promising career within the Customs & Excise service, to produce and raise my two sons. For 10 years I was a stay at home mum. Most of the time I enjoyed it, but I craved intellectual stimulation that I couldn't get from Toddler Groups, Playschool, Mother's Circle. Eventually I went back to work, starting the only way I could, with a part time, school based job, which in no way reflected my capabilities or intellectual qualifications. I took it because it fitted around the boys' timetables. What it did give me was access to adult conversation that, although it was still children based (teachers), was adult, and gave my flagging ego a much needed boost when I was included in their conversations as of right because I had something cogent to contribute.

Eventually I went back to full time administrative work as the boys got older, and at the same time, enrolled in the Open University to gain the degree I'd not had a chance to go for as a young woman. Lack of funding.

I was running the home, looking after two growing boys and husband, working full time, and also studying 3 or 4 hours every night for my degree, for 10 months of the year, for 7 years. For the last 2 years, my company had been bought up and moved to another site, which involved me commuting 4 hours every day, door to door. I still graduated with honours.

Women are determined, tenacious, fiercely loyal. But in the end, its all about choice. I CHOSE to give up work and raise my children. Other women do not.

I in no way look down upon them. Not every woman wants motherhood and children. I certainly didn't, but when nature and fate stepped in, I made the only choice that was right for me.

Every woman must make the choice that is right for them, must be allowed to make the choice that is right for them. I would hate to think that society is once again applying pressure to women who have stated quite honestly, that having children and a family is not for them.

It's their choice, whichever road it takes them on.
 
I don't blame women for opting out.

The working world is a cutthroat place. If you aren't a vicious competitor, you have no place in it.

I'm not.

It isn't only women who are chained by sexual roles and expectations, it's men as well. When I realised I had no place in the working world, I also realised I had nowhere else to go.

No wonder I went insane.
 
rgraham666 said:
I don't blame women for opting out.

The working world is a cutthroat place. If you aren't a vicious competitor, you have no place in it.

I'm not.

It isn't only women who are chained by sexual roles and expectations, it's men as well. When I realised I had no place in the working world, I also realised I had nowhere else to go.

No wonder I went insane.

Then you went online.
 
matriarch said:
I was running the home, looking after two growing boys and husband, working full time, and also studying 3 or 4 hours every night for my degree, for 10 months of the year, for 7 years. For the last 2 years, my company had been bought up and moved to another site, which involved me commuting 4 hours every day, door to door. I still graduated with honours.

Women are determined, tenacious, fiercely loyal. But in the end, its all about choice. I CHOSE to give up work and raise my children. Other women do not.

The articles are considering whether these choices are shaped by society's attitudes about gender roles. Flip it around and apply it to those who choose to work, and it's still a valid question:

Did you choose to, or did you have to run the household, look after the kids and look after your husband while pursuing your other goals? Did you choose it because you wanted to have it all, or because that's the woman's role, or because your husband wouldn't have chosen to run the household, look after the kids, look after you, and work while you pursued your career goals and maybe pitched in at home when you could?
 
perdita said:
I won't take money from a young student, love, but your focus is near pedantic, as are most personal takes on such large issues (feminism, motherhood, the family, the sexes, etc.)

It is NOT the nuclear family, nor the mum-at-home that gives a child security and preparation for his or her place in the world. O, my dear, it is only Love. Sometimes only one parent can give it fully, sometimes it's a grandparent, or an aunt or uncle, sometimes it's not required that it be a 24/7 experience. But - whatever the source - if Love is missing no amount of traditional trappings will make the trek to adulthood and wholeness better, however it might ease the workings of society.

Pear

I know that we have differing opinions on these kind of issues Pear, but I still can't believe some of the ages in which children are put into nurseries or playgroups with strangers. Before they're even 1 year old!

I can't say that leaving a child with strangers for 8 hours, 5 days a week, when they're only tiny, can be good. JMHO.

The Earl
 
amicus said:
Thank you for posting the article, Lady Jeanne.

I should just post a 'bump' and hope others will comment, as my position on the issue is rather well known and soundly criticized.

If there is an answer or an understanding to be gained from considering this issue and all that it entails, I suggest it can only come from a close consideration of the basic nature of both man and woman.

Rather than just 'male domination' throughout history, I tend to think that the traditional relationship between men and women evolved in a very natural way so as to satisfy both and, perhaps most important, provide a stable environment for the nurturing of offspring.

Be interesting to see how others respond.


amicus....the most rude of all the Nation States, with the rowdiest kids and the highest crime rate (I must be doin sumpin right)

Well, I read the article and must question is this American women only? Are they so backwards?

I disagree Amicus, since man is hardly as close to nature in all ways as woman ... cyclical/ period is one way they are ... men are culture based - striving to defeat nature at every turn - pave it over (unless like in a Rosseau state of being, which is the natural state of man, submissive to nature). :D
 
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