Are my characters "morally bankrupt"

[NotHisLady]

...and if they are, should that matter?

I posted my first story here a couple of days ago.
Earning My "A"
That it has gotten negative comments doesn't surprise me. The reasons cited for them kind of did.
This is (at least in my head) a love story and the sex is fairly tame, so I put it in Romance. I've been repeatedly told that since my lead character is married and seeking love outside of that marriage, then my story cannot be Romance.
One of the all-knowing Anonymous comments even went so far as as saying that adultery is not romantic and calling my characters morally bankrupt.
So...
Is an adulterous romance an oxymoron?

Input, suggestions, or being told to just suck it up are all appreciated!

 

[PennLady]

I would say -- not having read your story -- that adultery is a tricky thing to put in romance. I don't think there's anything romantic about adultery, but there are mitigating circumstances that might change things.

For example, if one of the parties is escaping an abusive marriage and meets and falls in love with someone else, readers would probably "excuse" that kind of adultery. Another example, at least for me, is if a marriage is over in all but name, and the person falls in love with someone else. But in both of those cases, the first relationship is over or on its way to being over, so in a sense, no one is hurt, as would be the case with the usual (?) adultery.

If your story has someone straying from their marriage because of boredom, or lack of discipline, or general disregard for their partner, then I don't think you'll find a sympathetic audience.

ETA: Okay, now I've read your story.

I don't know if I'd say your characters are morally bankrupt, but they aren't terribly likable, for the primary reason that they are each cheating on a spouse, and as far as I can tell, for no real reason except they want to. I don't have sympathy for either one of them at the end -- I'm sorry for their spouses.

That aside, the story is well-written in terms of mechanics. And truth is, there's nothing wrong with it, it's just that a lot of people will not consider adultery romantic. I don't. It might have fared better in Erotic Couplings.

Don't assume, either, that romance readers only want soft-core sex, or "fade to black," or whatever. You can have explicit sex within a romance, even a little bondage or whatever as you have. Some readers --including me -- enjoy that.

 

[sr71plt]

I think it's prudish to hold that romance is slave to marriage to someone else. So, my suggestion is to ignore comments that assert that requirement. I think it's quite legitimate and realistic to base a story in someone finding they are in love with someone other than their spouse--and that that "love" can be romantically based. It's also quite realistic to depict them as hiding the affair from their spouse for a prolonged period.

Sure a good many readers will tell you they don't like the story because of their moral values. The point on whether you write the story really is whether it bothers your moral values to the point you can't write it (apparently not) or it bothers you too much that others say they don't like that story on the basis (possibly so, and a reason to consider whether to write the story--not really where to post it). But is it a realistic plot line that can include some good erotica? You betcha, and authors write at least that plot line and sell it in the mainstream all the time--and find readers (same with TV and movies and viewers).

So, it depends on what you want to write and how influenced you want to be by what some others object to in your theme setups.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I thought conventional reality had it that romantic marriage would be the oxymoron. And even among the Mende of Tanzania, a wife was traditionally expected to have a lover- after all, no husband would treat you to the lovely gifts that a lover would offer; he'd declare them too expensive and frivolous.

 

[kbate]

A few simple changes could fix most of the weaknesses that your readers complained about. Some reasoning (other than lust) for the tryst (loveless marriage, sexless marriage, wrong marriage, alcoholic husband, just a beautiful man has to have despite being conflicted about infidelity).

Your final paragraph (at least I've stopped crying) wasn't enough to justify the infidelity and repair her damaged morality - so she is difficult to compare to Hester Prynn as the opening quote implies.

If we are to find justification for her actions, we need more data than you gave. I see hints of it, but not enough to compensate for cold planned adultery.

People want "desire, conflict, reconciliation, love" for romance - not "lust, sex".

 

[PennLady]

I think it's prudish to hold that romance is slave to marriage to someone else. So, my suggestion is to ignore comments that assert that requirement. I think it's quite legitimate and realistic to base a story in someone finding they are in love with someone other than their spouse--and that that "love" can be romantically based. It's also quite realistic to depict them as hiding the affair from their spouse for a prolonged period.

People fall out of love with their spouses, I'm sure. And although that's sad, there's nothing wrong with it. But I would think that for most people, there'd be some struggle there, some guilt or something, unless the relationship had already fallen flat, when they embark on a relationship with someone else before the marriage is officially over.

I didn't get much of a sense of romance in this particular story. I forgot to say in my previous post that while the story was well-written, there wasn't much character development; there weren't even names. Perhaps that put people off as much or more than the adultery. With no way of knowing why the characters are doing this, it's hard to relate to them, at least it is for me.

But that's all my opinion, and judging by the comments, at least some points of that are shared by other readers. I really do think this story might have fared better in Erotic Couplings (in LW, of course, it would likely have been a magnet for the usual trolls).

 

[Porkwarrior]

I get it, I get why you put that story in "Romance" but others that have never sought out secret physical intimacy with another to get what you can't from who you are with probably won't.

That incredible rush at finding someone you click with, the ongoing daily, sometimes hourly, courtship dance, the wooing & seduction as you get to know each other. The blind panic once you commit. And the incredible ecstasy you feel when it is even BETTER than it was in your head on those lonely nights.
THOSE are the things that were left out of your story, and why an adulterous romance is NOT an oxymoron. But somebody that hasn't been there wouldn't understand or pick up on that.


BTW -- I LOVED your story, all of it. I completely understand where your characters are coming from and I've played out scenarios a lot like it in my head. Hee hee I never used an egg timer before though, that was fun I might have to steal that one.

Keep writing hun, I would love to read more.


BTW Redux -- How the heck do I log onto the story site? Tried using the username & password from the forums but no dice, tried registering there and it says the name is already taken. Bah, you were robbed of a 5 star comment!

 

[sr71plt]

BTW Redux -- How the heck do I log onto the story site? Tried using the username & password from the forums but no dice, tried registering there and it says the name is already taken. Bah, you were robbed of a 5 star comment!

There isn't a separate account required for the story part of the Web site. You're being told the account name is taken, because you're the one who took it. Click on the "Literotica.com" at the bottom of this page and then on "Stories & Pics" under the "Site Index" head and you're in the story section.

 

[Porkwarrior]

There isn't a separate account required for the story part of the Web site. You're being told the account name is taken, because you're the one who took it. Click on the "Literotica.com" at the bottom of this page and then on "Stories & Pics" under the "Site Index" head and you're in the story section.

Tried using the username & password from the forums but no dice...

See above.

I was pretty sure that's how it worked but Lit hasn't been liking me this week.

 

[sr71plt]

See above.

I was pretty sure that's how it worked but Lit hasn't been liking me this week.

The only ones who can help you then are either Manu or Laurel, who have to be messaged using the PM system (top right of this page).

 

[NotHisLady]

I really do appreciate all of this.
Generally, when I write I don't spend a great deal of time worrying about how it will be accepted since that's the part I have no control over. I can only write what I can write.
The thing I found startling was that the comments were so very polarized. High and low but very few "atta girl" or "gee that was ok" remarks. It seems that stories posted here are judged a bit differently. Particularly if they strike a nerve.

The first draft of this did have much more in the way of why things were happening, motivations etc. I cut all of it out in the end because it read like heavy handed moralizing and excuse making. Instead I only suggested the back-story and lead up thinking that the person who would be struck by this would see it and those who didn't see it probably wouldn't have liked it the other way either.
Even making this her 'journal entries' was intentional. I didn't name her or her lover because I was trying to write a fantasy that any reader could see himself/herself playing out.

Hopefully it isn't a total failure.

 

[Porkwarrior]

Nah I figured it out...just keep trying until Litdom finally accepts the damn password.



And now after a technical highjack we are back with our featured posting on adulterous romance's.....

 

[Porkwarrior]

I really do appreciate all of this.
Generally, when I write I don't spend a great deal of time worrying about how it will be accepted since that's the part I have no control over. I can only write what I can write.
The thing I found startling was that the comments were so very polarized. High and low but very few "atta girl" or "gee that was ok" remarks. It seems that stories posted here are judged a bit differently. Particularly if they strike a nerve.

The first draft of this did have much more in the way of why things were happening, motivations etc. I cut all of it out in the end because it read like heavy handed moralizing and excuse making. Instead I only suggested the back-story and lead up thinking that the person who would be struck by this would see it and those who didn't see it probably wouldn't have liked it the other way either.
Even making this her 'journal entries' was intentional. I didn't name her or her lover because I was trying to write a fantasy that any reader could see himself/herself playing out.

Hopefully it isn't a total failure.

Oh I loved it just the way it was...I was just saying that somebody that hasn't been there might just see cheating douchebag fucking and not understand the motivations behind the characters. But readers that HAVE been there get it completely. Probably a big reason why the ratings & comments have been so polarized.

But I am guessing you already knew that.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

...and if they are, should that matter?

I posted my first story here a couple of days ago.
Earning My "A"
That it has gotten negative comments doesn't surprise me. The reasons cited for them kind of did.
This is (at least in my head) a love story and the sex is fairly tame, so I put it in Romance. I've been repeatedly told that since my lead character is married and seeking love outside of that marriage, then my story cannot be Romance.
One of the all-knowing Anonymous comments even went so far as as saying that adultery is not romantic and calling my characters morally bankrupt.
So...
Is an adulterous romance an oxymoron?

Input, suggestions, or being told to just suck it up are all appreciated!

I haven't read your story, but I will try to read it in the next day or so. I am commenting for the purpose of addressing your specific questions.

First of all, I'm not surprised by the reception your story has received. Despite the fact that this is a sex site, and despite the fact that a huge portion of the readership is morally challenged in one way or another, any mention of infidelity sparks outrage in certain segments of the audience. There are categories which by definition are morally repugnant, but stories in those categories are segregated from the rest and therefore only offend those intentionally seeking offense.

Romance readers like their stories pure and sweet, and they have no appetite for the bitter taste of infidelity.

Like I said, I haven't read your story, but it might have done better in Erotic Couplings. I have a few stories that involve romance outside the marriage, and in both cases I parked most of the chapters in EC. Some did better than others, but none resulted in flaming comments.

Second, I do believe that you can write a romance based upon an illicit relationship. Affairs of the heart can be very romantic, so long as you focus on the two cheaters and ignore the innocent (or not so innocent) spouses who are being cheated. I just wouldn't park it in romance, unless you are prepared for the backlash.

 

[sr71plt]

Second, I do believe that you can write a romance based upon an illicit relationship. Affairs of the heart can be very romantic, so long as you focus on the two cheaters and ignore the innocent (or not so innocent) spouses who are being cheated. I just wouldn't park it in romance, unless you are prepared for the backlash.

What if the spouse was an abusive douche bag? No possibility of enough sympathy (given legitimate reasons the other spouse couldn't divorce the douche bag--like he's mafia and is a killer?; he's in an insane asylum) being swung by the reader to the cheating spouse who has found love in the arms of someone appreciative? I'd like to think that "never" never occurs in such story possibilities.

 

[PennLady]

The first draft of this did have much more in the way of why things were happening, motivations etc. I cut all of it out in the end because it read like heavy handed moralizing and excuse making. Instead I only suggested the back-story and lead up thinking that the person who would be struck by this would see it and those who didn't see it probably wouldn't have liked it the other way either.

It's your decision, and it's not wrong, but it could be that you lost some sympathetic readers by dropping that information. I might have felt differently if I'd known more back story. I don't even have to agree with it, but the background would have informed me a bit more about everything.

Even making this her 'journal entries' was intentional. I didn't name her or her lover because I was trying to write a fantasy that any reader could see himself/herself playing out.

Hopefully it isn't a total failure.

It certainly isn't a total failure -- I saw some positive comments.

As for the "any reader" -- this is something I see a lot of people say they're doing with their writing, but I wonder how often it works. It almost never does with me, personally, but it will depend on the reader, obviously. I can't see myself in that situation b/c I do not have that fantasy; other people will feel differently.

Sometimes I think that in making things more specific, like by naming your characters and giving them more specific motivation, the appeal of a story is wider.

 

[barrymanilow]

Not sure what the complaint is. Lots of romance stories/movies deal with characters who are married. Lost in Translation, for example.

 

[YDB95]

Despite the fact that this is a sex site, and despite the fact that a huge portion of the readership is morally challenged in one way or another, any mention of infidelity sparks outrage in certain segments of the audience.

This, precisely. It never ceases to amaze me how incest is not only allowed but extremely popular, and yet people look down their noses at adultery under almost all circumstances. That's just something you've got to accept if you're going to include it in any of your stories. But you can make your characters more sympathetic with a backstory explaining why they've gone astray, and I think in this case it would have improved your story a lot. (It wasn't bad as is, but I'd really like to have known why she was up to cheating with him in the first place.) I did that with this story, and it fared pretty well. (A couple of reviewers did suggest it would have been better had she actually been already separated from her husband, and in retrospect I agree. But I'm fairly happy with how it turned out in any case.)

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

Not sure what the complaint is. Lots of romance stories/movies deal with characters who are married. Lost in Translation, for example.

Agreed. Like the #1 rated story in the Romance category, Poolboy Benefits (but I wouldn't know anything about that one...) Trophy wife and her Poolboy.