Are Free Speech & BDSM Incompatible?

[Laurel]

I tend to think not. I've always felt that a community can decide the content of a forum by promoting the threads/ideas they value and ignoring the rest.

However, my knowledge of the lifestyle is limited, and there may be something I'm missing in regards to a need for structure in discussions.

Please don't turn this into a rehashing of a well-known recent flamewar. This isn't a loaded question, and I'm making no judgments. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I tend to think not. I've always felt that a community can decide the content of a forum by promoting the threads/ideas they value and ignoring the rest.

However, my knowledge of the lifestyle is limited, and there may be something I'm missing in regards to a need for structure in discussions.

Please don't turn this into a rehashing of a well-known recent flamewar. This isn't a loaded question, and I'm making no judgments. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.

I think that since the computer is a poor communicator, there is a tendency to misinterpret meanings. The tendency to to sense an attack, and that means a person will either stay and fight or run and hide. Stronger benign personalities will ask for clarification, while others who are not as secure will feel attacked and get defensive. Then there are the people who are not interested in the forum at all who will jump in to see the fight expand.

That is the nature of free speech. It is up to each individual to look within to examine why they are here in the first place.

I for one, will defend myself if I need to. However, most of the time I will ignore someone if I think they are just trying to jerk my chain. I post my opinions, and I reserve to right to disagree with any and all posters, friends or foe. I am here not to be popular, but to share information about my flavor of D/s.

Ebonyfire

 

[P. B. Walker]

There is no way BDSM and Free Speech are incompatible. BDSM can be very broad. Each of us have our own experiences and level of knowledge. BDSM can be what you and your partner make it. I can definitely see personalities conflicting. But I think you will have that in any forum. In my opinion, there is nothing in BDSM that limits free speech.

If someone feels otherwise, I would love to hear their reasoning (not to flame, but just to see a real argument as to why it limits free speech).

PBW

 

[A Desert Rose]

Absolutely it is compatable

Respect for others opinions seems to be what is often lacking.

Discussing sexuality, in any form is an intimate thing and too many times people are unable to be objective. It's hard to seperate personal feelings and experiences from what the discussion is about. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a THING. That's just how most humans are made up. We bring our life experiences with us to the table.

Those life experiences are what make us what we are. Therefore, we are sensitive and protective of them. We can't always be as objective as we would like to be.

But respecting that we all have those intimate feelings is what nurtures free expression.

Laurel, I am interested in knowing why you think it is not.

Thank you for this thread.

 

[MissTaken]

Very nice av, PBW.

Can free speech and BDSM remain compatible?

Yes. I think they can. They do, here, on this forum.

I do believe that due to the intensity of the subject matter and how personally we identify with the subject matter that many times text is misread, nerves are struck and the flames that result tend to ignite.

AS with any forum, the flames that are ignited when a person feels personally attack, take much longer to douse and tend to lead to the taking of sides. People are far more defensive when they feel the debate is targetting them as opposed to their political beliefs etc.

I also agree with EB. It depends on what you hope to offer or gain from a BDSM conversation. It depends on whether you view the forum for discussion as a community, entertainment, a singles bar etc. Some are invested in the group. Some aren't. There is not right or wrong motivation, it just is.

I also believe that there times when BDSM discussions need a facilitator, some structure. Again, because the subject matter is intense and personalized.

Those who have undertaken a path into this lifestyle are often some of the most self confident and aware self individuals I have had the pleasure of knowing. This also adds to conflict as well as wonderful discourse.

There are no right answers, Laurel.
I do believe a free speech forum is a good idea and can and will work.

It all depends on your personal needs, viewpoints and reasons for being here.

My last comment, I don't believe that a free speech forum is for all. Again, as EB said, one has to know and recognize their motivation and their vision for where they are before making a decision concerning how they want to engage in ANY social group of a BDSM nature. A munch can be much more losely arranged than a conference.

Just my tired, burnt out perspective.

I hope it helps.

 

[P. B. Walker]

Very nice av, PBW.

Thanks MissT I'll let ya'll wonder what put that big grin on my face... hehe.

PBW "A gentleman never tells..."

 

[zipman]

First and foremost...

Thank you Laurel. For not only creating Literotica, but also for caring enough to post this thread.

Personally, I do not believe that free speech and BDSM are incompatible. There are two-sides to every coin and I can understand the arguments for each side.

The reason that people felt the need to create their own space was the constant flaming that some people experienced here. That and a need for a "safer" environment. In the "Parting and Division" thread on the GB, 70/30 made a comment about people who practice BDSM as being degenerates and Satan worshippers. While that kind of talk doesn't bother me, I could easily see it as being very intimidating to someone starting to explore this lifestyle. In the "safer" confines of the new site, a post like that might even be removed.

However, free speech is a slippery slope and only time will tell what becomes of kinktalk. There will certainly be more challenges to face the new site as time goes on, and as the stricter rules are enforced. How much of the original intent that motivated the creation of the site will remain 6 months from now? or one year? No one knows, but the hope was that serious BDSM people could discuss issues without being harrassed or flamed.

For the record, I was invited to be a member of kinktalk. I have not invited anyone as i do not think it is appropriate, that's a personal decision. I do post to both sites and I will continue to.

Thanks again, Laurel!

 

[SexyChele]

I believe that free speech and BDSM are certainly compatible. However, we are dealing with a machine in communicating our questions, answers, flirtations, comments, etc. And machines are impersonal. It is hard to see whether PBW has that great smile on his face when he responds to a post. Or if MissT is being reflective after a long day. It's tough to know if any of us had a truly crappy day, or if we are on cloud nine.

In this machine, we can be who/what we want. But we don't have that unique human element here. I can't see smiles. I can't see the flash in some one's eyes when they feel passionate about something. I can't feel the tears when some one feels they've been accused or injured. I can't hug some one who feels good, or is having a bad day.

Speech, to me, encompasses all aspects of communication: facial expression, body language, voice inflection. I don't think that free speech and BDSM are incompatible, no. But I do think it can be more difficult by just involving this machine.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Free speech

for the record, I was asked to join and I declined. I may forgive my treatment at hands of some of the people who split, but I cannot and will not forget.

I refuse to go there.

At the beginning, this site was a very hostile place for me and others. Over time, it was clear to me that only certain views were valued. The same people who fostered those views the same people who have shown that although they are good at dishing out mischief, they are not so good at receiving it.

I fought to stay here, and until the day some of them left I was insulted by a few of the so called "serious BDSMers".

Serious about whom? Serious about their own point of view?

As a person who values the tenets of free speech I am happy they found their niche. But they will do it without me.

Ebony

 

[A Desert Rose]

You can write this in 50 words or 500 but it still comes down to respecting others opinions. No one allows me to speak or disallows me to do so. We are free to express ourselves as we choose to and others are free to disagree. What happens after that is up to the sensibilities of the individuals involved.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Oh and P.S. I was NOT invited to join. ~smiling~ But I have discovered that I do not belong in any one place at Lit. I am enjoying the wanderings and the adventure of it.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: First and foremost...

Thank you Laurel. For not only creating Literotica, but also for caring enough to post this thread.

Personally, I do not believe that free speech and BDSM are incompatible. There are two-sides to every coin and I can understand the arguments for each side.

The reason that people felt the need to create their own space was the constant flaming that some people experienced here. That and a need for a "safer" environment. In the "Parting and Division" thread on the GB, 70/30 made a comment about people who practice BDSM as being degenerates and Satan worshippers. While that kind of talk doesn't bother me, I could easily see it as being very intimidating to someone starting to explore this lifestyle. In the "safer" confines of the new site, a post like that might even be removed.

However, free speech is a slippery slope and only time will tell what becomes of kinktalk. There will certainly be more challenges to face the new site as time goes on, and as the stricter rules are enforced. How much of the original intent that motivated the creation of the site will remain 6 months from now? or one year? No one knows, but the hope was that serious BDSM people could discuss issues without being harrassed or flamed.

For the record, I was invited to be a member of kinktalk. I have not invited anyone as i do not think it is appropriate, that's a personal decision. I do post to both sites and I will continue to.

Thanks again, Laurel!

I applaud you Laurel for this fine site. I post on other lists and the same kinds of things happen. You sometimes just have to ride out to bad times, to get to the good times.

Ebony

 

[P. B. Walker]

A Shocker

For the record... I was not invited to join the new site. I... sorry I need a second <blubbering into diet coke>... ok... I'm better... I for one didn't even know there was another site... until someone told me about it. I would have been just as happy not knowing there was a new site.

PBW

 

[Cherry]

Laurel,

I think the issue was not so much that BDSM is incompatible with Free Speech, but rather that this BDSM forum was previously being run in a way that some found selective freedom of speech.

Writing styles were criticized, laughter at the wrong jokes brought scolding, lifestyle dedication was questioned/belittled, postings were edited/moved/closed, posters were sanctioned for speaking their minds (contrary to the blessed opinion) ... you couldn't even defend yourself without suffering the wrath of the keepers of rules.

I recall you saying that the BDSM Forum had different rules than the rest of Literotica's policy of Freedom of Speech. That might have been the start of the problem. As posters mingled between the various forums, they tend to expect the same policies to be applicable throughout.

One person's "flame", is another person's "debate".

 

[~Dream~]

re:compatible

The real reason I came to Literotica was to have fun and hopefully to meet someone to "teach me' more about BDSM.
I did,I met Artful here at Lit and it has been 1 tough road for us being so far apart after now knowing how GOOD it feels skin-to-skin..I came here to learn and to educate others with my truth.
Both have been accomplished,I feel my speech is coming freer from me because of being in this lifestyle making me feel like a more free person,period.

I say thank God for Lit ,or I may have never met the man of my dreams,my soulmate...have I abused my rights at Free speech? undoubtadely so,would I say I have ben flamed or abused here? without a doubt ,I have.."Why ,then do I choose to stay? Because I have every much of a right to post here as any of the self-professed "lifestylers" do and I believe that 90% of them are really decent,awesome people and I will not let the 10% that "irk" me ruin my chances at more valuable info I can get to further MY happiness..

as I have said before Laurel,I leave on ly if YOU tell me too,no one else ,period,and I would trust and respect Your judgement as to why that would be necessary if ever it were to happen,
I see no need to "run and hide",or to go to other sites but thats just me,thats MY CHOICE.. to stay here where I am accepted for who I am and dont need an "invite' like i'm at some posh dinner party to join in on discussions,I just had a friend tell me last nite,she may "ask' to get me in there,to Kinktalk,well,whatever,I wish the site well ad all but I feel I belong here ,I dont care to have to be "invited" places,I want and deserve to be warmly welcomed or embraced..

at times the subject matter of certain threads HAS got intense and I admit I use to take things very personal,but I have really changed and that can be seen by many. I feel I am alot less defensive and alot more open..maybe people are beginning to know the "real" me..??

Like Chele so aptly put it we are using a machine to communicate our thoughts ,feelings and views,sometimes it's so hard to put into "text" what we truly FEEL.. Thats enough of my rambling ,thank you for this thread ,I hope this forum continues on long aftr I am gone and I Appreciate the right i have to voice myself here,thank-you

 

[P. B. Walker]

Re: Re: Are Free Speech & BDSM Incompatible?

Laurel,

I think the issue was not so much that BDSM is incompatible with Free Speech, but rather that this BDSM forum was previously being run in a way that some found selective freedom of speech.

Writing styles were criticized, laughter at the wrong jokes brought scolding, lifestyle dedication was questioned/belittled, postings were edited/moved/closed, posters were sanctioned for speaking their minds (contrary to the blessed opinion) ... you couldn't even defend yourself without suffering the wrath of the keepers of rules.

I recall you saying that the BDSM Forum had different rules than the rest of Literotica's policy of Freedom of Speech. That might have been the start of the problem. As posters mingled between the various forums, they tend to expect the same policies to be applicable throughout.

One person's "flame", is another person's "debate".

Nicely put Cherry... and some very valid points.

PBW

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Are Free Speech & BDSM Incompatible?

Cherry,

You posted what I wanted to say, but was still too pissed off to say it! Very well put!

Eb

Laurel,

I think the issue was not so much that BDSM is incompatible with Free Speech, but rather that this BDSM forum was previously being run in a way that some found selective freedom of speech.

Writing styles were criticized, laughter at the wrong jokes brought scolding, lifestyle dedication was questioned/belittled, postings were edited/moved/closed, posters were sanctioned for speaking their minds (contrary to the blessed opinion) ... you couldn't even defend yourself without suffering the wrath of the keepers of rules.

I recall you saying that the BDSM Forum had different rules than the rest of Literotica's policy of Freedom of Speech. That might have been the start of the problem. As posters mingled between the various forums, they tend to expect the same policies to be applicable throughout.

One person's "flame", is another person's "debate".

 

[Lancecastor]

Those who feel repressed tend to want to make the most Rules when they get a chance.

Remember....24/7 TPE BDSM-ers are marginalized IRL.

The founding BDSM-ers were given the right to make Rules in the Forum.

You saw what happened.

I think less is more.

Fewer rules=more free speech.

Water finds its own level.

I say dismantle the structures and let people talk.

That's what makes the Internet so great.

And it's what makes Lit such a fine place to be.

Lance

 

[A Desert Rose]

I think less is more.

Fewer rules=more free speech.

I say dismantle the structures and let people talk.

Lance

My view: ignore the structures. They can't take your birthday away, we already know when it is.

As you have said many times and more articulately than I: netiquette is really the only essential thing to follow. After that, all things fall in to place.

 

[Desdemona]

I am at both sites and will continue in this fashion. I like some things and dislike some things that happen at each place. Like people, no one site can meet all our needs. Free speech is important and necessary. It is not incompatable with BDSM. I will stay here at lit and continue to post to whatever interests me just as I do at kinktalk.

 

[artful]

I tend to think not. I've always felt that a community can decide the content of a forum by promoting the threads/ideas they value and ignoring the rest.

However, my knowledge of the lifestyle is limited, and there may be something I'm missing in regards to a need for structure in discussions.

Please don't turn this into a rehashing of a well-known recent flamewar. This isn't a loaded question, and I'm making no judgments. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.

Laurel, I realise the nature of your concern, and thank you for putting up this thread, so all who may have a vested interest, can FREELY state their thoughts on it.

Cherry's post pretty well sums up my feelings on the matter, but I would add also, the issue is not really, "Are Free Speech & BDSM Incompatible?", but rather, is FREE speech something that ALL are responsible enough to handle in a mature, adult like manner?

The answer,...in my opinion is, NO! Some,...see it as a *right* to make personal attacks on others. Some folks pick out and CHOOSE their targets ahead of time, and some troll the boards, jumping from one Forum to another, even one thread to another, to spread their venom and hate.

When "ANY", Forum Moderator participates in such a fashion, THEIR action, their posts, carries a LOT of "weight". Because of their normally having a lot of seniority, they all tend to have a number of FOLLOWERS, who will back them up when they *target* an individual to FLAME.

This is ESPECIALLY difficult for a NEW poster, or New Literotica Member to deal with. At no time, should a Forum Moderator be involved in a PERSONAL attack on someone whose skills at typing are less than accurate, or not up to SOMEONE elses level of acceptance.

I can see where it would be beneficial for ALL Forums to have 'stickys' with advisement for proper posting, and/or aids in posting styles etc., but when a Forum Moderator does this PUBLICLY,...problems develope.

Most folks will immediately become DEFENSIVE and lash back, (I know I did). I take a lot of pride in not being involved in FLAMING events, because it is a waste of my time, SOME however, just can't resist the urge to put their .02 cents in.

The topic of BDSM, has NOTHING at all to do with the PROBLEMS of *FREE* speech. The problems of free speech is, and always has been, an INDIVIDUAL using that *right*, in an abusive manner.

(JMHO),...but it's MINE,...and I OWN it!

 

[serijules]

I didn't realize till just now there was some other site, which is fine by me since I don't particulary see anything wrong with this one. I doubt there is anything wrong with that one either. My thoughts that follow are simply me sharing what works for me.

In the same way that free speech allows us to freely speak our minds in any way we choose to, it also allows us to take what others say in any way we choose to. I feel that freedom of speech comes with the responsibility to respect that same freedom in others, no matter what your opinion on their statements may be.

I also feel that freedom of speech is only as compatible as one makes it. I choose not to participate in any flames here (or anywhere), thus, they don't really affect me much. I am compatible with this forum simply because I choose to be. No one can make that choice for me (although they certainly have the freedom to try to tell me they do). Ahhhh, the freedom of self. Lovely thing, that.

I don't feel that freedom of speech and BDSM in general have any incompatibilities. People that practice a BDSM lifestyle have just as much control over their own words and reactions as anyone else in any other type of lifestyle. If someone chooses to flame or judge people, then well, they need to accept the responsibility of that behavior coming back at them. Someone pointed out the lack of body language and facial expressions that exist in a written forum. You really can never know or control what another person's intentions are when they post something, but you can control how you take them. Control is a powerful thing, and the best thing about it is, we all have it.

I personally feel that ALL levels and experiences and types of BDSM are equal, and the threads and people that also support that view are the ones I participate in. There is no "real" or "better" lifestyle, it is only what each of us makes it, and how much we respect those styles that differ from our own. That is my opinion, that is my expression of freedom of speech, and I intend to honour that by respecting others that share that view, and ignoring or bypassing those that don't, unless I can learn something productive from their view.

After all, they are entitled to their own opinions too.

Freedom of speech is all about the right to express oneself verbally, and about taking responsibility for those same words one chooses to express. BDSM is all about the ability to express oneself sexually, and about taking responsibility for how one chooses to express that sexuality. Seems pretty compatible to me

Great site Laurel....all of it.

 

[RisiaSkye]

I've noticed that when I speak my personal opinion on such matters, my position as a Moderator tends to color people's perception of that opinion--as though it's personal, or speaks to how I do my job duties. Sometimes free speech doesn't extend to those in authority positions; it's a necessary evil, that limitation, I think.

So, Laurel, I hope you'll understand if I keep my thoughts on the subject to PM.

But, I wanted to post to acknowledge the question, its importance, and my shared interest in hearing what people have to say on the subject.

RS

 

[Lancecastor]

So Risia, does this mean:

* you found this topic important enough to stay silent about,

* you have adopted a policy of not speaking on important issues in your personal capacity,

* you are in a conflict of interest.

It's the first time I've seen you walk away from giving input on something important, so naturally I'm curious.


Lance

I've noticed that when I speak my personal opinion on such matters, my position as a Moderator tends to color people's perception of that opinion--as though it's personal, or speaks to how I do my job duties. Sometimes free speech doesn't extend to those in authority positions; it's a necessary evil, that limitation, I think.

So, Laurel, I hope you'll understand if I keep my thoughts on the subject to PM.

But, I wanted to post to acknowledge the question, its importance, and my shared interest in hearing what people have to say on the subject.

RS

 

[artful]

Off Topic

I've noticed that when I speak my personal opinion on such matters, my position as a Moderator tends to color people's perception of that opinion--as though it's personal, or speaks to how I do my job duties. Sometimes free speech doesn't extend to those in authority positions; it's a necessary evil, that limitation, I think.

So, Laurel, I hope you'll understand if I keep my thoughts on the subject to PM.

But, I wanted to post to acknowledge the question, its importance, and my shared interest in hearing what people have to say on the subject.

RS

*begin hijack*

I try my best to not even APPEAR as an ass kisser, but I just have to post this. In my opinion,...RS is the BEST Moderator on Literotica. Though not perfect, her talents and abilities have been demonstrated time and again.

Her intelligence and fair mindedness have not gone unnoticed by me, and I suspect the majority of most of the regulars who post, and/or read the BDSM Forum.

Once again,...her competence is well illustrated by her post that I quoted. "Nuff said"-

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

*end hijack*