Anti-illegals law.

[ABSTRUSE]

This is going on in my neck of the woods.
Just wondering what you think of it.

and yes, I will judge you.

The start of it.



and then:

Lawmakers craft immigration law

First came Hazleton Mayor Lou Barletta’s Illegal Immigration Relief Act.


Now, some state lawmakers are attempting to crack down on illegal immigration through the National Security Begins at Home Illegal Immigration Reform Package — five House bills that were introduced last week.

The bills differ from the ordinances passed by Hazleton in that they are much more sweeping in their proposals for cracking down on illegal immigrants.

If passed, the bills would:


*Require all state businesses to enroll in the Basic Pilot Program, a government database used to verify immigration documents. Failure to comply would result in a license suspension.


*Authorize the state police to work with federal officials to help enforce immigration laws.


*Require law enforcement to keep crime statistics tracking the arrest of illegal immigrants.


*Terminate the license of any employer with a “professional license,” such as a nursing home administrator or a landscape architect, who knowingly hires an illegal immigrant.


*Deny all nonemergency state benefits to illegal immigrants, such as welfare, education and unemployment, excluding benefits required by federal law.

Immigration law expert Kris Kobach was asked to help draft the package of laws, as he did Hazleton’s ordinance. And much like the ordinance, the American Civil Liberties Union promises a lawsuit if the legislation passes.

The same group of conservative Republican lawmakers — led by Rep. Daryl Metcalfe, R-Butler — proposed similar legislation toward the end of last session. It got little traction and died when the session closed.

Detractors say package has even slimmer chances than before, now that Democrats hold a majority in the House.

One of the lead attorneys challenging the Hazleton’s ordinance, Witold J. Walczak, of the ACLU, called portions of the proposed laws “patently illegal.”

“It leads one to think this is all a bunch of grandstanding,” he said.

“I don’t know if maybe that they are just looking for headlines.”

But the bills’ backers hope the groundswell of publicity surrounding Hazleton’s ordinance could bolster support for some of the measures.

“The question would be whether the legislators want to enter into this debate over immigration,” G. Terry Madonna, a veteran state political analyst, said.

“Given all the problems that are out there, I don’t know whether the Legislature is going to take on another set of problems.”

If nothing else, the bills show that immigration isn’t going away as a politically opportune issue in Pennsylvania, Dr. Madonna said.

“It’s going to grow and become more important in Pennsylvania politics, especially if the federal government keeps punting and failing to act on the problem.”

 

[elsol]

The education portion always bothers me.

A child might not have had a choice and you're asking that a parent make a choice in the face of their own self-interest. (The kid might not be able to get an education in their home country anyway.)

So what do you create if you don't boot the family? Someone growing up with 'no future' as their prospect.

That's a bad place for the rest of us to put someone.

People with no future are dangerous people, thrown in the fact that they weren't socialized into believing in society as a whole (an extremely important function of an educational system that allows for stability), and the resentment towards what they will perceive as unfairness...

You better guarantee that none of these stay in our borders or we're going to pay the price.

 

[S-Des]

The education portion always bothers me.

A child might not have had a choice and you're asking that a parent make a choice in the face of their own self-interest. (The kid might not be able to get an education in their home country anyway.)

So what do you create if you don't boot the family? Someone growing up with 'no future' as their prospect.

That's a bad place for the rest of us to put someone.

People with no future are dangerous people, thrown in the fact that they weren't socialized into believing in society as a whole (an extremely important function of an educational system that allows for stability), and the resentment towards what they will perceive as unfairness...

You better guarantee that none of these stay in our borders or we're going to pay the price.

It's also the problem with people who believe punishing the businesses is the solution...you know, "If there are no jobs, they'll stop coming here." There is one certainty, if someone can't find a job, they'll eventually do anything to feed themselves or their family. It doesn't matter what your race or where you come from. It's a very complicated problem and somehow I doubt politicians are going to make anything better. We have a far worse problem around here with illegal immigration than in most areas (I've heard that Illiniois is the 2nd highest destination in the country, although there's no way to verify that). Our taxes are incredibly high, the crime rate is bad, health care is incredibly expensive, and the emergency rooms are always packed (because people who are afraid to come to the doctor or can't afford it know that the ER has to treat them, no matter what), making the wait hours or longer, even if you have an emergency. We have overcrowding in our schools and programs to accomodate the kids who don't speak English (actually, only the Spanish speaking ones), slowing down education for everyone. It's a mess and I have no idea how it's going to get better.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

This is a "fart in a whirlwind" as far as I'm concerned. The town of Hazelton does not have to jurisdiction to make any kind of law concerning immigration. The fact that they think they can punish a business for employing illegals is silly. Haven't they ever heard of an "I-9"? That federal law is already on the books on that, and the penalty is a fine, not forcing the company out of business.

And what jurisdiction does Hazelton think they have over state run programs such as welfare, unemployment and low-income housing? How about - NONE!

Immigration is strictly under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government, because Immigration laws directly impact international relations. Hazelton needs to shut the fuck up and elect leaders who know their ass from a hole in the ground.

 

[rgraham666]

It's grandstanding. A bunch of yahoos going 'Look at us! We're tough on those nasty people that aren't like us! Vote for us!'

And S-Des. If you think America has high taxes, look at Canada or Europe. They're a lot higher here and there.

And, when I can pay taxes, I don't mind. I agree with Oliver Wendell Holmes. "I like taxes. They buy me civilization."

 

[3113]

Immigration is strictly under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government, because Immigration laws directly impact international relations. Hazelton needs to shut the fuck up and elect leaders who know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Well, the idea, I think, is to make enough noise that the politicans on the fed level start taking notice. I think this strum-and-dang is more of a protest march, of sorts, against the federal government's seeming inaction about solving percieved illegal immigration problems--like S-Des' emergency room example.

No, it can't win, but it does get attention, and it does get a message across that there are a lot of people and states that are tired of waiting for those in power to actually do something.

What I worry about is that something like this might gain enough of a movement--and enough people in real power behind it--that draconian laws may be inacted that are not good or smart laws. This is a common senario--people feel that the politicians are doing nothing about a problem that to them, is a real emergency, so they force through a law that is extreme, and, whether it works or not, it also does damage.

I'd rather politicans took notice, put their noses to the grindstones, did the research and came up with smart and fesible laws to make the situation better, rather than waiting till the mob, in an angry panic, takes the situation out of their hands and starts chopping off heads.

 

[S-Des]

It's grandstanding. A bunch of yahoos going 'Look at us! We're tough on those nasty people that aren't like us! Vote for us!'

And S-Des. If you think America has high taxes, look at Canada or Europe. They're a lot higher here and there.

And, when I can pay taxes, I don't mind. I agree with Oliver Wendell Holmes. "I like taxes. They buy me civilization."

I think I'd be OK with it if I could get the health care. Unfortunately, if our politicians tried to do that I'm afraid we'd be even worse off. They can't touch anything without making it worse. Now insurance companies are doing $3000/year deductibles. My daughter had a wart on her foot and my half of the bill was $1000.

 

[rgraham666]

I think I'd be OK with it if I could get the health care. Unfortunately, if our politicians tried to do that I'm afraid we'd be even worse off. They can't touch anything without making it worse. Now insurance companies are doing $3000/year deductibles. My daughter had a wart on her foot and my half of the bill was $1000.

Move to Canada. We've got it.

Thank God for that. I'd be dead, or at best mumbling to myself under a bridge somewhere.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Surely, Hazelton is not doing anything more than trying to keep supply costs high by preventing free competition. Just what the US says it opposes. There is an unfortunate dichoyomy in this country that tries to tell the rest of the world how to run their lives but doesn't transmit the message domestically.

 

[rgraham666]

Just as at home they're all in favour of 'Law'n'Order' but internationally it's, "Badges? We don't need no steenking badges!"

 

[impressive]

I find it highly amusing (and more than a bit pathetic) that folks are crafting laws to make "illegal immigration" illegal.

It's the implementing regulations that should be targeted. More often than not, the laws themselves aren't the problem. It's the efficacy of their enforcement.

 

[Remec]

This is going on in my neck of the woods.
Just wondering what you think of it.

and yes, I will judge you.

Oh dear, and I bet there's a pop quiz later too, isn't there? *g*

Alright, then, here's what I think:

• Hazelton is out of order by usurping what are patently either State or Federal powers.
• They have some right ideas.
• Why the fuss over illegals in the first place? If they're not a legal alien, they're a criminal and need to be sent packing.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Awww, it's like the Shengen deal. They want pilots to do the dirty work of the immigration office. In order not to loose their jobs, they refuse people who're not "arians" to enter a Shengen country. Better refuse entry to a Swedish citizen with black hair and brown eyes, rather than risk - oh, horror! - that an African or an Arab enters Sweden and ask for refuge here.

 

[JamesSD]

*Require all state businesses to enroll in the Basic Pilot Program, a government database used to verify immigration documents. Failure to comply would result in a license suspension.
*Authorize the state police to work with federal officials to help enforce immigration laws.
*Require law enforcement to keep crime statistics tracking the arrest of illegal immigrants.
*Terminate the license of any employer with a “professional license,” such as a nursing home administrator or a landscape architect, who knowingly hires an illegal immigrant.
*Deny all nonemergency state benefits to illegal immigrants, such as welfare, education and unemployment, excluding benefits required by federal law.

I've been saying for years that if you want to fight illegal immigration, the battle will be won and lost by going after the employers of illegals. Not knowing the exact details of the datablase, those requirements sound reasonable.

I didn't realize illegal immigrants could get welfare or unemployment benefits! Seeing as illegals typically don't pay taxes, it seems reasonable they shouldn't be entitled to those services.

"Authorizing" law enforcement to work with federal officials seems pretty meaningless. Does that mean they're currently prohibited from doing so?

One of the lead attorneys challenging the Hazleton’s ordinance, Witold J. Walczak, of the ACLU, called portions of the proposed laws “patently illegal.”

“It leads one to think this is all a bunch of grandstanding,” he said.

“I don’t know if maybe that they are just looking for headlines.”

I'm not sure I agree that such laws are patently illegal, but I do agree it's probably a lot of grandstanding.

Of course, I also don't think illegal immigration is quite the problem its made out to be, but then again, I'm not a blue collar worker whose job is threatened by an illegal willing to do the same work for much less.

 

[TheEarl]

Not actually read the thread, but was drawn in here by the interesting title - "Anti-Illegals Law."

If they're illegal, then shouldn't there be a law against them?

The Earl

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Not actually read the thread, but was drawn in here by the interesting title - "Anti-Illegals Law."

If they're illegal, then shouldn't there be a law against them?

The Earl

Quite right. This is not a legal problem at all. It's an enforcement problem. If the Border Patrol and the INS are going to be effective, there has to be enforcement on both sides of the border. But why would Mexico want to keep the their indegents? The U.S. is their wealfare system. They've made it our problem and are not about to do anything to stop the flow of people across the Rio Grande.

 

[rgraham666]

I do believe illegal immigrants pay taxes. Every time they buy something. Most of the States, as I recall, have a sales tax of one type or another.

They'll also pay road tolls.

 

[SeaCat]

Well, the idea, I think, is to make enough noise that the politicans on the fed level start taking notice. I think this strum-and-dang is more of a protest march, of sorts, against the federal government's seeming inaction about solving percieved illegal immigration problems--like S-Des' emergency room example.

No, it can't win, but it does get attention, and it does get a message across that there are a lot of people and states that are tired of waiting for those in power to actually do something.

What I worry about is that something like this might gain enough of a movement--and enough people in real power behind it--that draconian laws may be inacted that are not good or smart laws. This is a common senario--people feel that the politicians are doing nothing about a problem that to them, is a real emergency, so they force through a law that is extreme, and, whether it works or not, it also does damage.

I'd rather politicans took notice, put their noses to the grindstones, did the research and came up with smart and fesible laws to make the situation better, rather than waiting till the mob, in an angry panic, takes the situation out of their hands and starts chopping off heads.

The thing that worries me about this is the idea of fringe groups finding acceptance with those who believe this way.

Currently there is a small group here in west Palm Beach that target Immigrants for violent crimes. When one was recently caught his comment about his crimes was: "they're only illegals."

Cat

 

[Pure]

the people drafting these laws appear unfamiliar with the Bill of Rights, among other important documents. the BR mostly speaks of 'the people,' and citizenship is never mentioned.

the sixth amendment, for instance, says, "in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public triat, by an impartial jury....and to be informed of the natue and cause of teh accusation, to be confronted with the witnesses against him... and to have the assistance of counsel for his defence."

relevant to measures before the US Congress: the present system of having "illegality" be a matter of IMMIGRATION LAW, not criminal matter, skirts these issues. the penalty is not prison, but deportation. IOW, the stupid jerk offs (the Republicans in Congress), by subjecting the illegal resident to a CRIMINAL proceeding--making him or her a felon--have made this person have a stronger position in the law.

particularly relevant to Hazleton: the 14th amendment makes a person born in the US, a citizen; this applies to children of illegal residents. further it specifies that "the US shall not deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law."

note this applies to 'persons', not just citizens. in any case, the children born here to 'illegal' parents, are citizens. SO they cannot be deprived of normal benefits of such ---education, etc--under the constitution. the Hazleton laws applied to housing, for instance; depriving children of that is unconstitutional.

---
PS: the article notes that many of the town's businesses do NOT like the law and feel it has unfairly hurt them.

 

[yevkassem72]

Awww, it's like the Shengen deal. They want pilots to do the dirty work of the immigration office. In order not to loose their jobs, they refuse people who're not "arians" to enter a Shengen country. Better refuse entry to a Swedish citizen with black hair and brown eyes, rather than risk - oh, horror! - that an African or an Arab enters Sweden and ask for refuge here.

For once, madamoiselle, I think that we are agreed on something. Waits for Christ or Allah or someone to return now. Then again, I am an anarchist. My views on this are bound to be affected by such politics.

Also, throwing kids out of school is a very quick way to build an underclass. I do want to wish deny anyone a chance at a future. Call me strange, but that is how I think. We might become another Rome, with an illiterate populace ruled through bread and circuses. But perhaps that is what some wish. Starving and illiterate people make good menial workers/slaves to dominate.

Nationality, sex, race, nothing of this should matter when it comes to education and opportunity to work. We all have the right to work, to go to school, to find a means to get bread for basic needs. This is essential humanism.

My being a foreign radical in the USA has nothing to do with this, of course.

 

[Boxlicker101]

For the most part, I have nothing against individual illegal aliens. They are decent people who sneak into the US and work hard to support themselves and their families. There are exceptions, but the criminals among them are little or no worse than home-grown criminals. What bugs me about illegals as a group is the same thing that bugs me when I have been waiting in a slow-moving line and I see people coming along and cutting into line ahead of me. It bothers me a lot that those people are not waiting their turns, as I and everybody else has to.

That's not to say that I am an immigrant, but my wife is, and she has two adult, unmarried daughters that she wants to have join us. I want them to join us also. We have been to visit them, and really look forward to having them come to this country. However, the waiting time for those in their class is OVER FIFTEEN FUCKING YEARS!! Furthermore, the waiting time is increasing. That's what bugs me, especially when I can't help thinking the illegals are prolonging that waiting period, and an amnesty program for the illegals in the country might mean an even longer waiting period.

 

[S-Des]

I do believe illegal immigrants pay taxes. Every time they buy something. Most of the States, as I recall, have a sales tax of one type or another.

They'll also pay road tolls.

That's true Rob, but you're talking about an incredibly small amount of money. I pay 1/3 of my income to Federal, State, Social Security, and Medicare taxes. On top of that, I pay the same things you just mentioned. Still, my biggest complaint is the one Box menioned...that people just decide they don't need to stand in line like everyone else. I wish the system was more streamlined, but I want it that way for everyone. People from Mexico shouldn't be treated any differently than people from Europe, Africa, Asia, or countries further south of Mexico. The fact that people just refuse to be concerned that we have no idea who comes across our border astonishes me. In addition to crime, how can we not be more worried about the possiblity of terrorists crossing alongside the people coming here to feed their families?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

For once, madamoiselle, I think that we are agreed on something. Waits for Christ or Allah or someone to return now.

We might become another Rome, with an illiterate populace ruled through bread and circuses.

Might become? McDonalds and Oprah, my friends!

But perhaps that is what some wish. Starving and illiterate people make good menial workers/slaves to dominate.

Isn't that what ALL politicians want???

 

[yevkassem72]

Isn't that what ALL politicians want???[/QUOTE]

As an anarchist, I can not argue with your logic there.

Nor on the Oprah front. But that's another issue. As for McDonald's, I like burgers, but I prefer the bar food version.

 

[rgraham666]

Isn't that what ALL politicians want???

No. But the people who own them do.