Another "Incident" in London

[Guest]

Man shot by armed police on Tube

Jeez, what is happening to our wonderful capital city?

For all Londoners:

I HOPE they killed one of the terrorists, and it wasn't a case of mistaken identity.

Adding more:

From eyewitness accounts... A guy of Asian appearance ran onto the tube platform, hotly persued by three armed plain-clothed police officers. He ran onto the train and was tripped, he fell to the ground and the three officers fell onto him and unloaded five shots into him, killing him. He was wearing a very big, padded coat, and some passengers believe he may have been wearing a "suicide belt". Shit.

 

[wishfulthinking]

I hope it wasn't a case of mistaken identity also. Imagine if he was an illegal immigrant or something, running for another reason.

too for Londoners, and to all the Aussies in Sheppards Bush (aussie central).

Edited to add: opps. for all the Kiwi's too!

 

[scheherazade_79]

Do you think it'll stay in London, or is it going to creep in to other British cities as time goes on?

It's sad, but at least the bombers seem reasonably inept at the moment.

 

[scheherazade_79]

Update - it sounds like he was a bomber. There've been eyewitness reports that he was wearing a bomb belt with wires sticking out of it.

In a perfect world he would have been kept alive and handed over to the relatives of the people who died two weeks ago.

 

[Fenikkusu]

For all who need them.

 

[Liar]

Damn.

At least it shows the police is alert and doing their thing.

I can't help to wonder about the shooting. If the guy was overpowered as witness report says, why shoot? And further, if he really had explosives on him, I'd never dare to fire a gun. Must be something there that the article didn't report. His hands on the trigger, or something like that.

#L

 

[pop_54]

Damn.

At least it shows the police is alert and doing their thing.

I can't help to wonder about the shooting. If the guy was overpowered as witness report says, why shoot? And further, if he really had explosives on him, I'd never dare to fire a gun. Must be something there that the article didn't report. His hands on the trigger, or something like that.

#L

They shot him in the head mate, made a good job of it too by the sound of it... when trying to restrain a suicide bomber one takes all steps to make sure he/she can't trigger the device 'no way'... can't think of a better way than blowing their fucking head to pieces myself... Bloody good show chaps, saves the cost of a trial and several years providing the little shite with halal food and comfy accommodation... I mean five 9mm caps has to be a lot cheaper, about 2 quid at the most I'd think.

 

[English Lady]

*shakes head*it's so very sad, but thank goodness they got him really, imagine the news if the police hadn't caught him


As to it spreading, I went over to liverpool with my daughter this morning, we went to the shopping centre and then to two museums. There were police everywhere and at the Museum we had our bag searched before we cold go in.

the bins in thr local bus station have been boarded up and there was an arson attack on a mosque locally.

It's nothing like it is in London, but there is definitely a strained air anywhere in big cities. My husband has to go over to Manchester to go and get the keys for our new house - he's going by train and I AM very worried about it.

 

[neonlyte]

They shot him in the head mate, made a good job of it too by the sound of it... when trying to restrain a suicide bomber one takes all steps to make sure he/she can't trigger the device 'no way'... can't think of a better way than blowing their fucking head to pieces myself... Bloody good show chaps, saves the cost of a trial and several years providing the little shite with halal food and comfy accommodation... I mean five 9mm caps has to be a lot cheaper, about 2 quid at the most I'd think.

Pops,

I agree. I'm afraid there is no solution other than to despatch these individuals in this situation.

On the cost: 2 quid sounds cheap. London retailers are reporting 75% drop in turnover, Financial analysts say the first bombings cost £300 million in lost turnover on the following weekend. I personally know of three people who cancelled plans to visit London today, if you've been recently you will know blowing a £100 on a day in London is easy. As long as the protagonists can feed terrorists into London the cost will continue to escalate, they don't give fuck if the bombs go off or not, they are hitting where it hurts, in confidence and in the pocket. Terrorism is not about killing people, it's about undermining confidence in a society until change is brought about, they really don't care if the government clamps down on personal freedom or caves in to their demands - either way they win.

I think I'll get pissed. Bloody glad the missus is getting out of their this weekend - my daughter is staying, she has no choice, her new role in the Strategic Health Authority is to coordiante emergency response in our area.

Edit to add: See El's post above.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Damn.

At least it shows the police is alert and doing their thing.

I can't help to wonder about the shooting. If the guy was overpowered as witness report says, why shoot? And further, if he really had explosives on him, I'd never dare to fire a gun. Must be something there that the article didn't report. His hands on the trigger, or something like that.

#L

A prepared suicide bomber generally has a dead mans switch on the explosives. That is to say, the det caps are live and rather than needing to push something to complete the circut, he has to keep something depressed to keep it from completing. If they were chaseing this guy, before he armed the weapon then the odds are good he hadn't had time to activate it.

So you shoot him, as many times as is practiceable. I mean he is onboard a packed commuter train. Can you really take the chance he hasn't got some way to detonate it even if you have over powered him? Would that all of the lemmings were found and dispatched before they could turn suicidal into homocidal.

to all Londoners.

Kudos to the police. It's never easy to make the decision to shoot to kill. I'm glad they can rest easier knowing they took a life and possibly saved many many more.

 

[Liar]

Pops, Colly. Pretty much as I expected. As I said, I don't know the practical situation around fanatics with bomb belts. I'm sure they did the right thing to secure the situation.

Bloody good show chaps, saves the cost of a trial and several years providing the little shite with halal food and comfy accommodation...

That one'll be your opinion though, P. Although it was the practiacally best solution, I think the guy got off easy by getting killed. That seems to have been his goal anyway.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

What I really don't understand is the lack of historical perspective of these sons of bitches.

London is not Madrid. It seems like they think their success there translates to everywhere.

Londoners survied the battle of Britan, the blitz, buzz bombs and the V-2 rockets. You have twice faced the specter of starvation due to u-boats and the privations that caused. If anything, you've shown the world at least twice inliving memory you are made of very stern stuff and you don't bow to terror or threats. Blair is no Churchill, but Ossamma bin Ladin is no Germany.

Trying to intimidate you guys into surrender is about as realistic as trying to coax a coon out of a wallnut tree.

It's not in your nature to cower and if you get your backs up, God himself would call you to stubborn to mess with.

God bless you all and extend his mercy to those who are forced to carry on in the face of terible loss.

 

[R. Richard]

I get my news from a variety of sources. One of the military sources indicates that the guy vaulted a barricade and then ran toward the train. If that is true, when you vault over a barricade and try to run toward a target you should expect to get shot.

 

[Guest]

Trying to intimidate you guys into surrender is about as realistic as trying to coax a coon out of a wallnut tree.

Ellie May? Is that you?

 

[Guest]

What I really don't understand is the lack of historical perspective of these sons of bitches.

London is not Madrid. It seems like they think their success there translates to everywhere.

Londoners survied the battle of Britan, the blitz, buzz bombs and the V-2 rockets. You have twice faced the specter of starvation due to u-boats and the privations that caused. If anything, you've shown the world at least twice inliving memory you are made of very stern stuff and you don't bow to terror or threats. Blair is no Churchill, but Ossamma bin Ladin is no Germany.

Trying to intimidate you guys into surrender is about as realistic as trying to coax a coon out of a wallnut tree.

It's not in your nature to cower and if you get your backs up, God himself would call you to stubborn to mess with.

God bless you all and extend his mercy to those who are forced to carry on in the face of terible loss.

Thanks, Colly.



Yep, all reports now seem to suggest a high probability that he posed an immediate threat, hence why they shot to kill, in the head. That's the policy when dealing with suspected suicide bombers, and a very sound one, too!

As for it being a good thing he was killed, I agree with Liar: far too quick for him. I'd have preferred to have seen a trial and for him to be in jail for as long as he lived, no matter the cost. It would have been the ultimate humiliation for him.

 

[neonlyte]

A police spokesman on the BBC website confirms the police are operating under a 'shoot to kill' policy.

The guy shot on the train was followed from a Internet Cafe by plain clothes police following up on potential targets identified from CCT footage analysed over the past few days. The news report claims an order to stop was given before the man was shot, none of the 'eye witness' reports carried by the BBC mention any warning being given.

The Muslim Council in England has issued a statement deploring 'shoot to kill' as a policy. In all my reading of the atrocities, I've not seen any statement that a 'shoot to kill' policy is in operation. It is now beginning to appear that the subject shot may not have been in possession of a bomb but may have been one of the suspects from the Oval explosion yesterday (Thursday). One eye witness reports seeing a 'bomb belt with wires sticking out' - a wonderful observation proving the medias willingness to pander to sensationalism given the entire event happened within the space of a few seconds and anyone able to identify a bomb belt in those circumstances should certainly be taken in for questioning by the police.

It is now four hours after the shooting, we still await a statement from the police, the uncertainty of what actually occured adds to speculation.

Colly, London is a different place from 60 years ago, sure we survived the IRA, but few of the IRA bombs in London (as opposed to Guildford, Birmingham and Manchester) were designed to kill and most were accompanied by warnings. Madrid has experienced Basque Seperatist bombings for decades, almost all without warning and most involving targetted fatalities. Most Londoners do not perceive they are in 'a war', making the adjustment to accept the consequence of a sustained bombing campaign, as in a war situation, cannot happen overnight, for the moment fear is the enemy and the enemy comes from within (Britain). The latest news report confirms how the house of one of the original suspected bombers has been burnt down, an arson attack. You wonder where the police were, let's hope they had collected all of the forensic evidence they needed. Who ever organised this must be pissing themselves laughing.

 

[R. Richard]

This from the Sun. Now, I know many of you think that the Sun is just tabloid trash, but they do have a hot looking Page 3 girl! I tend to rate UK newspapers on their Page 3 girl.

Cops shoot man on Tube

Man shot dead ... scene at Stockwell station

By CORINNE ABRAMS Sun Online

A MAN was today shot dead by police at a London Underground station, Scotland Yard said.

Passengers were told to leave the train on the Northern Line at Stockwell, south London following unconfirmed reports of a suspected suicide bomber.

A witness at the scene said the man was shot five times.

Other witnesses reported seeing police chase a man who had jumped over the ticket barriers onto the train.

Scotland Yard said: "We can confirm that just after 10am armed officers entered Stockwell Tube station. A man was challenged by officers and subsequently shot. London Ambulance Service attended the scene. He was pronounced dead at the scene."

 

[oggbashan]

Malaya

Why Malaya?

The British were faced with Communist backed guerrilla warfare in Malaya just before we were due to hand it over to the locals. It was our Vietnam.

Unlike Vietnam, we won. The guerrillas were hunted down and killed despite their attacks on innocent civilians. We managed to separate the terrorists from the population among whom they operated and kill their leaders. Malaya is perhaps the only time a democracy has won against terrorists.

Our methods do NOT bear examination but they worked.

Perhaps we should do another Malaya in Bradford.

Og

 

[Colleen Thomas]

A police spokesman on the BBC website confirms the police are operating under a 'shoot to kill' policy.

The guy shot on the train was followed from a Internet Cafe by plain clothes police following up on potential targets identified from CCT footage analysed over the past few days. The news report claims an order to stop was given before the man was shot, none of the 'eye witness' reports carried by the BBC mention any warning being given.

The Muslim Council in England has issued a statement deploring 'shoot to kill' as a policy. In all my reading of the atrocities, I've not seen any statement that a 'shoot to kill' policy is in operation. It is now beginning to appear that the subject shot may not have been in possession of a bomb but may have been one of the suspects from the Oval explosion yesterday (Thursday). One eye witness reports seeing a 'bomb belt with wires sticking out' - a wonderful observation proving the medias willingness to pander to sensationalism given the entire event happened within the space of a few seconds and anyone able to identify a bomb belt in those circumstances should certainly be taken in for questioning by the police.

It is now four hours after the shooting, we still await a statement from the police, the uncertainty of what actually occured adds to speculation.

Colly, London is a different place from 60 years ago, sure we survived the IRA, but few of the IRA bombs in London (as opposed to Guildford, Birmingham and Manchester) were designed to kill and most were accompanied by warnings. Madrid has experienced Basque Seperatist bombings for decades, almost all without warning and most involving targetted fatalities. Most Londoners do not perceive they are in 'a war', making the adjustment to accept the consequence of a sustained bombing campaign, as in a war situation, cannot happen overnight, for the moment fear is the enemy and the enemy comes from within (Britain). The latest news report confirms how the house of one of the original suspected bombers has been burnt down, an arson attack. You wonder where the police were, let's hope they had collected all of the forensic evidence they needed. Who ever organised this must be pissing themselves laughing.

London's a different place neon, but I haven't seen any evidence Londoners in specific or Brits in general are a different people. If I may, the thread here on the first bombings shows the British members of our community in a very good light. They may not be represenative of their countrymen, but I tend to believe they are.

I find it very hard to comment on the Muslim Council of England being against a shoot to kill policy without sarcasm oozing out or bile rising to my throat. So I'll make only the general statement that not having a shoot to kill policy means sacrificing a busload or tube load of innocent passengers if you yell stop and he is carrying a bomb and he doesn't. If there had been no bombings in Lonfdon in the last five years, it might be considered extreme. given the present circumstacnes, it's the only policy that makes any sense.

 

[oggbashan]

Arson?

ITN News via Yahoo:

Friday July 22, 08:31 PM

Three arrested over arson attack


Police have arrested three people after an attempted arson attack at the home of suicide bomber Germaine Lindsay.

Thames Valley police said officers were called to Northern Road in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, shortly after 6.30am on Friday after reports of a strong smell of petrol in the street.

Police said a substance thought to be petrol or diesel had been located and the area sealed off with houses adjoining Lindsay's former home evacuated.

Lindsay, 19, blew himself up on a Piccadilly Line Underground train in London on July 7, killing 26 people in the most deadly of the four terrorist attacks that day.

Last week officers of the Metropolitan police and Thames Valley police began a search of the semi-detached house on Northern Road which Lindsay had shared with his wife, Samantha Lewthwaite.

Ms Lewthwaite, who is not currently staying at the house, last week condemned her husband's attack as ''horrific''.

A spokesman for Thames Valley police confirmed that three men all from the local area, have been arrested on suspicion of arson with intent to endanger life.

One of the men is aged 20 while the other two are both 17.

They have been taken to Aylesbury police station for questioning.

The residents who were evacuated from the two homes in Northern Road have been allowed to return to their houses.

***

Attempted arson - silly Bs. This sort of reaction does not help.

Og

 

[amicus]

A couple things, if I may.

Is it a fair observation to note that the ‘tone’ of commentary concerning terrorism has changed somewhat since 7/7?

I note also a lack of comment that the Homeland Security, the Patriot Act was re-approved in Washington D.C. almost without objection.

The news reports indicate that Great Britain is also considering similar legislation, crafted to increase security.

People everywhere who enjoy freedom to come and go without restriction, bemoan the infringements on personal liberty. Most realize the necessity and hope it will be but a temporary situation.

While everyone detests the concept of ‘racial profiling’, does it now seem so outrageous?

I crafted a thread entitled something like ‘Civilized nations and Barbarians’ a few weeks ago and was ostracized for calling Muslims, barbarians. Wanna rethink that?

As an aside, I, personally, with the exception of Great Britain, or perhaps, ‘England’ to be more precise, have always been a bit suspicious of European nations. I say that as Spain remained neutral in WW2, Italy went Fascist under Mussolini, the Vichy French collaborated, Belgium seemed divided as were the low countries, the Greeks turned communist, Switzerland remained neutral and the Catholics, in general, didn’t lift a hand to protect the Jews.

All generalizations of course, but I don’t apologize, and an unfair generalization at that, for many.

However, as it becomes more and more clear that the Islamic Jihad truly is a declaration of war against western democracies, the time may well come and soon, when each is called upon to take sides.

The United States has made clear its’ stance on terrorism as has the British government, but beyond that?


I know, I know…shut up, Amicus…


(PS, I would also like to join Colleen in her sentiments in post #12)

 

[fairysong]

For all Londoners, their friends and family.

 

[neonlyte]

London's a different place neon, but I haven't seen any evidence Londoners in specific or Brits in general are a different people. If I may, the thread here on the first bombings shows the British members of our community in a very good light. They may not be represenative of their countrymen, but I tend to believe they are.

I find it very hard to comment on the Muslim Council of England being against a shoot to kill policy without sarcasm oozing out or bile rising to my throat. So I'll make only the general statement that not having a shoot to kill policy means sacrificing a busload or tube load of innocent passengers if you yell stop and he is carrying a bomb and he doesn't. If there had been no bombings in Lonfdon in the last five years, it might be considered extreme. given the present circumstacnes, it's the only policy that makes any sense.

Colly
My posts here should not be regarded as sympathising in any way with the criminals carrying out these acts of terrorism. I am concerned with the message being presented to the British people, who include significant numbers of Muslims. On a totally different issue I've been researching ethnic percentages based upon 2001 census in UK for a project I'm involved with, 97% of Muslims living in the UK regard themselves to be British, close to 40% of them live in the Greater London area.

When a shoot to kill policy is enacted, I think the citizens deserve to be told before the first shot is fired. There is a great deal of confusion over the man shot under this policy this morning, there has still been no definitive statement from the police or the government as to who he was, what he might have been doing, or whether he was carrying a weapon or bomb material. The conclusion is that he must have been involved since he was killed, by five gun shots to the head. An eye witness report on the radio a couple of hours ago described how this man was tumbled to the ground, held down while a 'policeman' shot him in the head. The eye witness did not recall any calls for the man to surrender. I am more than happy to conceed the authorities acted correctly, but I would like to hear why the felt they needed to take this action with this individual.

The Prime Ministers office has announced it is not going to comment on every event that happens, they have issued no statement on todays proceedings. That suggests to me they also have no idea what is going on. The London Police Commissioner now states the police did not carry out todays killing, thats ok, we have Special Forces for this type of action. I would just like someone to explain what is going on before vigilantes start extracting revenge on anyone who happens to look vaguely suspicious or carrying a rucksack.

From my own personal point of view, I would be happy to intern all suspects until they are thoroughly cleared of any possible suspician, the chap killed today was very clearly under surveilance since 20 officers were in on the kill, why was he even allowed to get anywhere near the tube system - because in Britain, we cannot simply lock people up on suspician, they needed him to commit an offence before they could act, his offence as far as public statement admits, was to run away, for this he was killed until someone can show otherwise. This is a very dangerous policy to conduct in public and will incite others to extreme acts. The authorities need to get their act together, its close to 12 hours since this guy was killed and no one is able to confirm why, just how long does it take to examine a corpse? I just want someone to confirm he was taken out to save other lives, and not that he was taken out because he ran away.

 

[oggbashan]

I say that as Spain remained neutral in WW2, Italy went Fascist under Mussolini, the Vichy French collaborated, Belgium seemed divided as were the low countries, the Greeks turned communist, Switzerland remained neutral and the Catholics, in general, didn’t lift a hand to protect the Jews.

All generalizations of course, but I don’t apologize, and an unfair generalization at that, for many.

However, as it becomes more and more clear that the Islamic Jihad truly is a declaration of war against western democracies, the time may well come and soon, when each is called upon to take sides.

The United States has made clear its’ stance on terrorism as has the British government, but beyond that?


I know, I know…shut up, Amicus…


(PS, I would also like to join Colleen in her sentiments in post #12)

Spain was in no position to fight on either side during WWII. It had just finished its own Civil War and was exhausted, militarily and economically.

Italy as a whole was not willing to fight in WWII. Their surrender recognised that the Facist Government did not have the support of its people.

France lost. The Vichy government was an attempt to save something from the defeat. Many French naval ships were scuttled by their crews when Germany insisted that the ships should be turned over to them. The French resistance, although small in numbers, was very effective before and immediately after D-Day in disrupting communications for the Germans.

Belgium and the Low Countries resisted as much as they could but were undermined by fifth columnists. Even without the collaborators those countries did not have the manpower or equipment to resist the most powerful armed forces in the world at that time. They tried and many died.

The Greeks fought Italy and defeated it so that Germany had to become involved before the Greeks lost. They didn't 'turn communist' until later and not for long before democracy was restored.

Switzerland was neutral but worked hard to protect prisoners of war held by Germany. British and American prisoners owed a lot to the efforts of the Swiss who persuaded Germany to abide by the Geneva Convention.

The Catholic Church in Germany opposed the deportation of Jews. The Pope, surrounded by a Facist Italian state, had no temporal power to protect anyone, not even himself. The people who should take most blame for not protecting the Jews were the Western Democracies who refused to take Jewish refugees in the late 1930s. Had they known what Hitler had planned... but they didn't know. Not then.

As for your statement about 'Islamic Jihad'? It is NOT an Islamic Jihad. It is a Jihad claimed by terrorists to give credibility to their acts. The majority of the different branches of Islam condemn this Jihad just as most Christian churches would condemn White Supremacists. The terrorists are as representative of Islam as the Klu Klux Klan is of US Christians.

Australia is present in Iraq and is taking over some responsibilities from the UK so that the UK can increase its presence in Afghanistan. There are other countries who are present in Iraq either as military or as reconstruction efforts. Some of those countries are Islamic - Egypt and Algeria have had their diplomats kidnapped because Islamic representatives working to rebuild Iraq show that the terrorists are NOT Islamic.

You are believing Al-Queda's propaganda that they are a worldwide Islamic movement. They are not. They are fanatical fundamentalists who believe things that they majority of Muslims would reject with horror.

Og

 

[Liar]

While everyone detests the concept of ‘racial profiling’, does it now seem so outrageous?

Fanatic Muslim extremist maniacs have blasted bombs against civilian targets for decades. What does the London bombings have to do with my opinion of racial profiling? Why would it change? Because they are on my back yard now? (Yes, although I'm not English, London is as much my back yard as New York is to most Americans.)

I crafted a thread entitled something like ‘Civilized nations and Barbarians’ a few weeks ago and was ostracized for calling Muslims, barbarians. Wanna rethink that?

No. Why should I? it's just as painfully stupid now as it was then.

However, as it becomes more and more clear that the Islamic Jihad truly is a declaration of war against western democracies, the time may well come and soon, when each is called upon to take sides.

Anyone who is for Jihad terrorism, raise a hand.

Nobody?

Well then, we are on the same side of this war. We just strongly disagree on how to fight.