Annon's & My Viewpoint

[sr71plt]

So I think a lot of what attracts women readers to gay male is not just the man-on-man sex, but also the emotional drama potential--the tension, the wooing, the wondering--which is often as much a turn-on for women as the actual sex scenes.

I think women like to read GM, because GM men, in general, keep themselves in better shape than straight men do--and are written up more as hunks. I don't think men are described much at all in straight writing (that both male and female writers concentrate on the female in straight writing) and that women readers actually like to read about hunks and what they do with their bodies (and might do with them if they were at least bi).

If there are "unmanly" GM stories out there, I haven't read them--I certainly haven't written them (with minor exceptions of a few scattered characters here and there).

Of course my view is (almost) as subjective as everyone else's commenting here (mostly folks neither reading nor writing the GM works, it looks like).

 

[3113]

I think women like to read GM, because GM men, in general, keep themselves in better shape than straight men do--and are written up more as hunks. I don't think men are described much at all in straight writing

I will grant you that, yes, GM stories do tend to describe in loving detail hunky men. But straight romance does the same. Most of the stories here, in other categories, focus on what the women look like, you're quite right there. But romances are *almost* as loving in describing hunky men as GM. So there are plenty of straight stories that would give women that hunk-man description if that was all they were after. I don't believe that is all GM offers women readers.

If there are "unmanly" GM stories out there, I haven't read them

There seem to be a lot of them, and my guess is that the one sentence description of what the story was about likely made you decide not to read them--and so you didn't find out how unmanly they were. I would not recommend them. We're talking descriptions of "pretty" petite men with flowers in their hair practically swooning in the arms of the hunk who deflowers them. Beyond "not my cup of tea" and into "shoot-me-now" territory

 

[sr71plt]

I will grant you that, yes, GM stories do tend to describe in loving detail hunky men. But straight romance does the same. Most of the stories here, in other categories, focus on what the women look like, you're quite right there. But romances are *almost* as loving in describing hunky men as GM. So there are plenty of straight stories that would give women that hunk-man description if that was all they were after. I don't believe that is all GM offers women readers.

Guess the women like to read about graphic sex.

There seem to be a lot of them, and my guess is that the one sentence description of what the story was about likely made you decide not to read them--and so you didn't find out how unmanly they were. I would not recommend them. We're talking descriptions of "pretty" petite men with flowers in their hair practically swooning in the arms of the hunk who deflowers them. Beyond "not my cup of tea" and into "shoot-me-now" territory

Oh, yuck. People actually write and read those?

I do have a line of pretty petite men. But no flowers in their hair. I've found a seam of readers who like superbig hunks taking petite men (spent a lot of time in Thailand, where that's a standard). So, I'll grant there's a readership for that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Or who break down in unstoppable tears at the thought that his MA-yunnn might have been unfaithful. Which he wasn't.

Or who are so very conflicted about losing their virginity. But his boyfriend is understanding and will wait forever if necessary.

These are a couple of the things that women want to explore. But they want to do so without the male-female dichotomy.

My baggage is a little different. Personally, I write GM sex, because I want to read about people who can trade top and bottom roles anytime they want to, without having to wear silicone. If they don't trade roles, I like to think that the reason is role preference, not cultural brainwashing and bodily architecture.

Also, men, culturally, can fuck just because they want to. All else being equal, men don't need to worry about being labelled a slut, because having a penis means sexual autonomy.

Eventually, of course, I realised that I could write strong, hardcore, graphic sex between equals by making them both be women. Or put everyone into space operas. Which gives me some variety...

 

[sr71plt]

Also, men, culturally, can fuck just because they want to. All else being equal, men don't need to worry about being labelled a slut, because having a penis means sexual autonomy.

Truth be told, I think there too is a large dose of men can swing more freely and not hyperventilate over each encounter because they can't get pregnant from it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Truth be told, I think there too is a large dose of men can swing more freely and not hyperventilate over each encounter because they can't get pregnant from it.

Thanks to modern birth control, I was always able to control my pregnancies. And damn glad of it, too... but yes, I've seen that one addressed.

have you ever come across Mpreg? Try not to, that's my advice.

 

[sr71plt]

have you ever come across Mpreg? Try not to, that's my advice.

Nope. Thanks for the warning.

 

[Verdad]

There is, however, a wide range to such stories, and in some instances I think the attraction isn't just the idea of two men together, so much as it is the potential for the story to have drama; for example, a first-time story between a guy and a girl in the present, while still fraught with some drama, is not nearly so "dramatic" as it was back when girls were expected to remain virgins till their wedding day--and could find out nothing about what was going to happen till the man introduced her to sex. BUT that same drama can be had with a gay-male story about some guy coming out of the closet to explore his sexuality for the first time, scared, worried and maybe even ignorant of what it's like to bottom.

I don’t know if it’s about that drama, though. Fanfics, at least, waste no time on dealing with acceptance or self-acceptance of homosexuality. Same sex pairings are just taken for granted. Sometimes there’s a quick umbrella explanation (e.g. “in wizarding world, everyone’s bi”) and sometimes the issue isn’t remarked upon at all. The drama is all about what separates the particular individuals in question, and really, that makes perfect sense.

If Stella is right, and I think she is, one of the main attractions of the whole exercise is in working out issues between equals, issues that stem from their personalities and histories, unencumbered with the expectations that come from one character being male and the other female. Dealing with realistic issues of homosexuality would shift the focus and get in the way of that, so these issues, just like the male/female dynamic itself, tend to be bracketed out.

But given some of said erotica that we've discussed, Stella, it seems to me that many women who write and read M/M do not leave that baggage behind nor want to. They seem to just want to heap it on someone who has a penis. So I'm not sure this is an accurate reason for the appeal of M/M.

That’s a puzzle to me too, but possibly it’s just different reactions to same things. Say, the female tendency to unreasonably fret about looks. I wish I could escape it, so I’m more than happy to leave it behind with male characters. Someone else might think it’d be really fine, though, so long as men were made to fret as much. She’s likely to write one of those stories where a male character positively despairs because his love interest saw him in his not-best outfit. It’s possible, of course, she doesn’t notice men don’t act that way, but it’s also possible that in her perfect world, everyone does.

 

[Verdad]

have you ever come across Mpreg? Try not to, that's my advice.

Advice seconded.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No.

Natural selection drives sex, and sex is a subset of violence/dominance.

The late Milton Erickson MD claimed that males wear female clothes and submit to homosexual sex cuz theyre timid and afraid of dominant females.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don’t know if it’s about that drama, though. Fanfics, at least, waste no time on dealing with acceptance or self-acceptance of homosexuality. Same sex pairings are just taken for granted. Sometimes there’s a quick umbrella explanation (e.g. “in wizarding world, everyone’s bi”) and sometimes the issue isn’t remarked upon at all. The drama is all about what separates the particular individuals in question, and really, that makes perfect sense.

If Stella is right, and I think she is, one of the main attractions of the whole exercise is in working out issues between equals, issues that stem from their personalities and histories, unencumbered with the expectations that come from one character being male and the other female. Dealing with realistic issues of homosexuality would shift the focus and get in the way of that, so these issues, just like the male/female dynamic itself, tend to be bracketed out.



That’s a puzzle to me too, but possibly it’s just different reactions to same things. Say, the female tendency to unreasonably fret about looks. I wish I could escape it, so I’m more than happy to leave it behind with male characters. Someone else might think it’d be really fine, though, so long as men were made to fret as much. She’s likely to write one of those stories where a male character positively despairs because his love interest saw him in his not-best outfit. It’s possible, of course, she doesn’t notice men don’t act that way, but it’s also possible that in her perfect world, everyone does.

I love this whole post thank you.

 

[3113]

I don’t know if it’s about that drama, though. Fanfics, at least, waste no time on dealing with acceptance or self-acceptance of homosexuality.

But fanfics have other kinds of drama to push them along (like evil wizards). I was talking about modern, non-fanfic GM. And what I remember most in first reading such stories here was the fact that all the drama that used to be in romances were in GM. Down to "does he like me" meaning "is he into guys or have I fallen for a straight man who is going to reject me--and maybe beat me up for coming onto him?"

And let's face it, that IS still a concern in the modern world and in GM.

As for Fanfic, I understand the homosexuality there a great deal better because most fan shows are still male dominated. Its why you had Kirk/Spock back when--because there was hardly anyone else aboard they could fuck, and certainly none that we'd believe Kirk would be faithful to over Spock--let alone any woman Spock would be more devoted to than he was to Kirk.

When a show is populated with interesting male characters and few and not-so-interesting female characters the fanfic is naturally going to go GM--no added drama required because the show itself provides all the drama. But if it's not Fanfic, and it's a here-and-now story, then GM, I think, provides women readers with drama that most romances in the here-and-now aren't likely to have--or at least have to work a good deal harder to have.

 

[lovecraft68]

Shit...not a few of them are more entertaining than the stories they're attached to.

Present company's stories excepted, of course.

Well of course! But you've got a point, when a story is pretty bad and some of the remarks are kind of sarcastic they can be more amusing then than the read itself.

There was one in particular that I remember making me laugh. I think the story was called Singing in the rain and someone remarked it should have been Sucking in the rain. A little silly, but it struck me as funny.

 

[Verdad]

But fanfics have other kinds of drama to push them along (like evil wizards). I was talking about modern, non-fanfic GM. And what I remember most in first reading such stories here was the fact that all the drama that used to be in romances were in GM. Down to "does he like me" meaning "is he into guys or have I fallen for a straight man who is going to reject me--and maybe beat me up for coming onto him?"

And let's face it, that IS still a concern in the modern world and in GM.

In my experience, regular stories don't dwell on that too much either, but I readily admit it's a very limited experience. I specified fanfics because I have a good idea about them; I've read barely a handful of other gay stories and those were more on the smut side than the romance side.

I do understand about the ever more difficult business of coming up with reasons for the characters not to, and yes, gayness can provide that insta-conflict. It is a good point, but still, it seems to me it can’t be the key point. Incest comes with insta-conflict too, but if I feel like forbidden love, it never occurs to me to seek out something about a daddy fucking a daughter. Those who do must be attracted to something more specific about the idea than just the illicitness. With women and gay stories, I think that something has to do with everything that’s difficult to impossible to do with a male and a female character.

As for Fanfic, I understand the homosexuality there a great deal better because most fan shows are still male dominated. Its why you had Kirk/Spock back when--because there was hardly anyone else aboard they could fuck, and certainly none that we'd believe Kirk would be faithful to over Spock--let alone any woman Spock would be more devoted to than he was to Kirk.

When a show is populated with interesting male characters and few and not-so-interesting female characters the fanfic is naturally going to go GM--no added drama required because the show itself provides all the drama. But if it's not Fanfic, and it's a here-and-now story, then GM, I think, provides women readers with drama that most romances in the here-and-now aren't likely to have--or at least have to work a good deal harder to have.

True. Indeed, you don’t have to go way back to Kirk and Spock. Perfectly contemporary stories like HP, for which I’ve developed an, uh, inexplicable weakness, have nary a female character to work with. It is more convenient to pair up two males whose personalities and (non-romantic) relationship are already given than it is to build up some cipher of a female or try to insert a new character.

Again, though, convenience is not the whole story and it’s a bit of a moot point whether I’d still prefer the skin of a male character if a female character were available who were in a place where I’d want her to be. She tends not to be, and sometimes there are reasons for that beyond the writers’ conservatism. Real world men and women do have differences that color their dynamic, some inherent and some imposed, and gay stories, fanfic or original, allow women to play with scenarios that wouldn’t work with a female character, at least, not in our world.

But, while Stella and I seem to be thinking along similar lines, I wouldn’t presume to explain what the attraction is for everyone. Sometimes you read ten stories and the payoff is in ten different places. It’s really a fascinating room of mirrors.