Angels or Assholes?

[Keroin]

I’ve been rolling this around in my brain. I am of the opinion, based on my experience, that most people are good, friendly, helpful and considerate and yet I can’t deny the sorts of things I read about in the news or even many of the posts I’ve read in threads right here on Lit, (judging by the Dear X thread, the world is swarming with assholes!).

Almost every day I have an encounter with, or receive an email from, someone, friend or stranger, who does or says something kind or generous. My run-ins with assholes are rare – I’d place the ratio at about 100 to 1. Even on this forum, I’ve had very nice things written to me, I’ve had a number of supportive PMs, (when my dad was sick, when I was worried about my breast lump, etc), and I’ve even formed long distance friendships with a few members.

In my travels, even in the poorest and most “dangerous” places I’ve been, I have been met with kindness. On one of my first trips down to Baja, Mexico, I found myself lost in the back roads of Tijuana, in a nasty neighbourhood, in the dark. I wandered into a small tienda and a scruffy, frightening looking gentleman spent twenty minutes weeding through my bad Spanish to help me get un-lost. One of many, many friendly moments on the road.

But I’ve read several posts on here expressing quite the opposite view from mine. I know there are people who see the world as populated mostly by users, abusers and jerks, with just a sprinkling of good folks thrown in. And if the people of the world were mostly good, logically, you’d think that things like the Rwandan genocide could never happen. It’s perplexing to me.

So what do you think, are most people good or bad? What’s your experience?

 

[ZRT]

More complicated.

Most people are governed by self-interest first, and past that a certain sense of social cooperation as well as a desire to feel good about themselves.

Which means that they'll generally say or try to do good things, so long as it doesn't require much exertion.

Then there's the added factors of stressed existences, the vicissitudes of life, and the fact that people outlet their stresses on each other. The guy shitting on the clerk at the store is passing on his stresses in life by taking an available target.

If you read as available to be dumped on, the simple fact is that you will be dumped on. It's not fair, but that's how people work.

 

[Cattypuss]

I think most people are inherently "good". That has been my experience in life.

I also think there's a lot of truth in that thing about the old man at the gates of the town.... something like -

An old man sat at the gates of the town and a traveller arrived on the road. The traveller asked the old man what kind of people the inhabitants of the town were. In response the old man asked what kind of people the traveller had found the people in his last town to be. When the traveller said they had been selfish, unfriendly, bad people, the old man said "You will find the people in this town to be much the same".

Some time later another traveller arrived and asked the same question. In response the old man asked what kind of people the traveller had found the people in his last town to be. When the traveller said they had been kind, friendly, good people, the old man said "You will find the people in this town to be much the same".

 

[graceanne]

I think that most people are assholes. Some just hide it better.

 

[SimonBrooke]

I’ve been rolling this around in my brain. I am of the opinion, based on my experience, that most people are good, friendly, helpful and considerate and yet I can’t deny the sorts of things I read about in the news or even many of the posts I’ve read in threads right here on Lit, (judging by the Dear X thread, the world is swarming with assholes!).

I think these things make the news because they're exceptional. Things which are normal are by definition not news.

I think most people are inherently "good". That has been my experience in life.

Mine too, on the whole. As your parable says, if you meet people expecting to be treated honestly and considerately, most of the time you will be. I think we're most of us about 90% good and 10% asshole. There's certainly at least one person on this forum who thinks I'm an asshole, and she has her reasons.

Like Hamlet,

I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me.

 

[BiBunny]

More complicated.

Most people are governed by self-interest first, and past that a certain sense of social cooperation as well as a desire to feel good about themselves.

Which means that they'll generally say or try to do good things, so long as it doesn't require much exertion.

Then there's the added factors of stressed existences, the vicissitudes of life, and the fact that people outlet their stresses on each other. The guy shitting on the clerk at the store is passing on his stresses in life by taking an available target.

If you read as available to be dumped on, the simple fact is that you will be dumped on. It's not fair, but that's how people work.

Yep, I agree entirely.

 

[rida]

Good.

Leaving aside the extreme cases of evil like genocides (and even there going down to the one on one level, not all the people committing the crime will turn out to be evil, some are probably miss-directed good ones ...), I'd say that most people are not out to harm other people.

However people are selfish. Our survival instinct kicks in in any situation where we have to put ourselves on the line. If there is any risk whatsoever, we as human always choose the line of action that causes us as an individual the less damage. That is why the few that act out selflessly are hailed as heroes.

As for being assholes, when people act in such a way, more often that not there are reasons behind that particular behavior that if known would make us understand where they are coming from. I don't justify it thou and will choose not to be around such person in the future.

 

[Aquila1]

Complicated.

Bad people can do good things. Good people can do bad things. Inversely related to what the driver is at the time, the state of the individual's internal landscape, and external (or societal) forces.

Two years ago, an ex-employee of mine (who also happened to be a friend), murdered his wife and daughter. I will never be privy to the processes that led up to that event, and even if I was, I doubt I would ever really understand anyway. But do I think he is a bad person? No, because I have also seen him act with enormous compassion and integrity in the past.

But of course, some people are just natural-born arseholes. This I know to be true *nods*

 

[DVS]

I think in many cases, the majority of people are good and caring. Even if someone is a stranger, most people will be kind and helpful, if they can.

But, there are always going to be a few that spoil the stew. I've worked jobs where I had to drive into strange cities. That makes it difficult, when you have to ask for directions. I've been given very good directions by some people and very bad directions by others.

In most cases, they either didn't know where I wanted to go and just thought they did, which is why the directions were bad. But, I know that some of the wrong directions were because I was a stranger, or how I looked, or maybe what I represented to the person I asked.

And sometimes because the person was pissed at someone else, and decided to take it out on me. I'm sure it's a big laugh when I'm driving away and they think to themselves.."let's see him find it with those directions...ha-ha."

But, I think a lot of the time, you can find out why someone has a bad attitude by looking at the "UN" factor. To mention just a few, if someone is untrained, unwilling, unknowing, unhappy, unhealthy, etc. it makes a big difference in how they act.

It doesn't mean all people in one of these categories are going to be mean to you...it just means it might be more likely, because of how they feel. Life for them is less than what they want, so their disposition is not the best.

I should also include unsober, because drink and drugs will sometimes cause the worst to come out of people. And that isn't always true, but I've seen a lot of drunk people who do unkind things to strangers, just because they thought it was funny. I'm pretty sure that when they sober up, they wouldn't be that way.

And, there's always the chance that I'm unright.

I almost forgot! I like porn. Some of the porn I like includes assholes, but in a completely different way.

I like gum, too!

 

[PertPerth]

I can't decide between Assholes and More Comlpicated.
Just because someone isn't bad, it doesn't make them good. There are too many bad "human" traits - we're greedy, selfish, lazy, we lie, cheat and are envious of others - usually on a daily basis!

Today my failures have been due to being selfish, lazy and gluttonous. The cat wanted to play, but I'm studying. While I'm studying, I eat too much. Does that make me bad? Not at all - not good either!

 

[Keroin]

I think that most people are assholes. Some just hide it better.

When I read this, Gracie, I just want to scoop you up and take you away to live among my wide circle of friends for awhile. I know too many genuinely good people to believe that people are just hiding their assholishness.

 

[ZRT]

The human race got where it is by being nasty, brutish, and competitive.

Absent an outside force to outlet that on, we tend to turn on ourselves. We don't like to admit just how much law of the wild is still within us, but that old line from White Fang comes to mind- the strong oppress the weak.

If you're perceived as weak, you're going to probably get far more than your fair share of being stepped on.

It's not right, but it is there.

 

[Keroin]

The human race got where it is by being nasty, brutish, and competitive.

Absent an outside force to outlet that on, we tend to turn on ourselves. We don't like to admit just how much law of the wild is still within us, but that old line from White Fang comes to mind- the strong oppress the weak.

If you're perceived as weak, you're going to probably get far more than your fair share of being stepped on.

It's not right, but it is there.

But I would also argue that one of the traits that has made humans so successful as a species is altruism. We may be selfish but we also realize the importance acting in ways that are beneficial to our family, community, tribe, etc.

 

[midwestyankee]

My experience is that most people will do good when given the opportunity. Our expectations, our own actions, and sometimes the simple weirdness of chance take away or reduce the opportunities for people to do good.

That said, there is a class of people who will behave badly when they feel that the risks of doing so are in their favor. Hence the high proportion of fucktards on Internet bulletin board services such as Literotica. But there's no way that I would ever consider myself wise enough to judge their prevalence among society as a whole.

Like Keroin, most of my experiences online have brought me into contact with very good people Folks who have befriended me, given me laughs, loved me, and given me support in tough times. I hope I've been half the friend to them that they've been to me.

So much of what you get in life is proportional to what you put into it.

 

[ZRT]

But I would also argue that one of the traits that has made humans so successful as a species is altruism. We may be selfish but we also realize the importance acting in ways that are beneficial to our family, community, tribe, etc.

Oh yes, I'll agree wholeheartedly. But anger and assholishness are often much simpler than altruism, and give much more immediate gratification.

I'm not saying that people are inherently assholish, just that that brute tendency has been beneficial, and that's why we have it.

 

[ecstaticsub]

This isn't directed to anyone here but something I have noticed in real life. People who think most people are assholes are themselves unhappy, bitter and assholes themselves. On the other hand people who tend to think most people are good are compassionate, altruistic and kind.

Just a generality but it seems to fit with the people I meet.

 

[ZRT]

This isn't directed to anyone here but something I have noticed in real life. People who think most people are assholes are themselves unhappy, bitter and assholes themselves. On the other hand people who tend to think most people are good are compassionate, altruistic and kind.

Just a generality but it seems to fit with the people I meet.

It does tend to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. One tends to receive the attitude that one gives, in general.

However, there are also experiences that drive that sort of thing. If most of the people you meet in your job and area are assholes, pretty soon you start expecting people to be assholes, and then even when they're not, they're put off by your attitude.

Like I voted, complicated.

 

[trisquel_astur]

Complicated.

Most of the people is good, but bad people screems higher!

 

[SimonBrooke]

The human race got where it is by being nasty, brutish, and competitive.

Absent an outside force to outlet that on, we tend to turn on ourselves. We don't like to admit just how much law of the wild is still within us, but that old line from White Fang comes to mind- the strong oppress the weak.

This is certainly true of highly competitive capitalist societies.

My suspicion is that of posters here, people from US cities are most likely to see people as more bad than good, followed by people from rural US and urban Europe (for values of 'Europe' which include Canada), while people from rural Europe are more likely to see people as more good that bad. Assholes migrate to the places where assholeishness is most rewarded, which is to say industries like journalism, politics and finance in cities. Non-assholes have a somewhat weaker tendency to migrate the other way.

If you look at industries like forestry, for example, in my experience you find no assholes at all, while asshole engineers are pretty rare.

 

[Cattypuss]

I'm gonna go back to my "old man at the gates of the town" thingy, as for me it sums up everything -

i.e. if you think other people are assholes then you will project in such a way that will bring out the asshole in them as regards their dealings with you. Not only that but your negativity will cause you to ignore the good in them and see only the bad.

And while I agree to some extent with what Simon has just said, I would also just note that I spent 15 years working in a very high-achieving, fast-paced, global-market beating financial environment in London and even during those years I believed that people are basically good.

I may, however, be one of Simon's migrating non-assholes - I made a life-choice to move away from all that and now live quietly in rural England.

 

[DVS]

...If you look at industries like forestry, for example, in my experience you find no assholes at all, while asshole engineers are pretty rare.

OK, I'll go along with you that those in forestry don't seem to be assholes. But the last time I checked, if you're an asshole to a tree, it doesn't respond the same as intimidatable humans do. I guess other wildlife can be intimidated, but only for a quick second or two. And sometimes, they run and hide before you can intimidate them. Shit, if they're smart, they run and hide from most every human.

Now, as for engineers, I know a few who are lazy procrastinators. Even though they know something needs fixing, they put it off for as long as they can. And when they do fix it, they don't fix it to last, because if they did, they would eventually fix themselves out of a job.

I've seen building engineers repair a door that doesn't close correctly, only to be repairing the same door a couple of months later. Instead of going the route they should and repair it properly, they only do the quick fix. the proper repair might keep it working for a year or two, if not longer, but the quick fix only keeps it working for a couple of weeks, or maybe a month or so at most.

Granted, this is a pessimistic tongue-n-cheek view of things. I'm not saying all engineers are the same, nor am I saying there are any assholish people in the forestry industry. I'm just being the devil's advocate, because it's fun. It tends to bring out the assholishness in some posters.

 

[DVS]

This isn't directed to anyone here but something I have noticed in real life. People who think most people are assholes are themselves unhappy, bitter and assholes themselves. On the other hand people who tend to think most people are good are compassionate, altruistic and kind.

Just a generality but it seems to fit with the people I meet.

I would agree that this is true in some ways, but some people who have to deal with assholishness on a daily basis will sometimes put up with it, and when they get together with others who also have to deal with assholishness, they vent to each other about the assholes they deal with daily. Once they let off some steam, they feel better. And, sadly, some don't get to let off steam, so they take it home to their family

I have to deal with people who assume they are better than me, just because they make more money than I do. They tend to talk down to me, and because of my position, I can't reciprocate. It's just how things work. I consider rudeness a large part of assholishness.

 

[Netzach]

I voted neither. They're mostly into their own shit. Their own gum and porn and paying bills.

I see most people as value-neutral and liable to go either way at any time.

 

[jenniferbaby]

This isn't directed to anyone here but something I have noticed in real life. People who think most people are assholes are themselves unhappy, bitter and assholes themselves. On the other hand people who tend to think most people are good are compassionate, altruistic and kind.

Just a generality but it seems to fit with the people I meet.

I recently read something that surmised that kind people tend to notice and appreciate kindness, a kindness is in the eye of the beholder kind of thing. I think it applies.

I think everyone has the capacity for good, for evil, and for neutral actions and feelings that are neither good nor evil. Whichever way a person leans is based on a variety of inner and outer factors. If most people weren't good, the species wouldn't have survived this long, but evil seems to have its place as well for some reason.

What confuses me is when people honestly believe they are good when all their actions point to the contrary. I wonder if it's something in their brain that keeps them from truly seeing themselves, perhaps the same thing that makes them unkind.

 

[Homburg]

This isn't directed to anyone here but something I have noticed in real life. People who think most people are assholes are themselves unhappy, bitter and assholes themselves. On the other hand people who tend to think most people are good are compassionate, altruistic and kind.

Just a generality but it seems to fit with the people I meet.

This is pretty much along the lines of my thoughts, also including the "old man at the gates" parable.

There is a brilliant pair of arguments in Chinese philosophy. One argues that man is inherently good, and uses the example of a child sitting on the wall of a well, and beginning to fall in. The author argued that man is inherently good because the vast majority of people will rush to catch the child even if it is not related to them. The counter to this was the chap writing that man is inherently evil, and that, yes, they rush to save the child, but do so to avoid the recriminations afterwards that would come from allowing the child to fall in the well. Key to this is understanding that in Confucious thought, selfish was equal to evil.

People are people, and neither inherently good nor evil. A given society may have tendencies towards either pole there, but individuals will still be individuals.