And Now For Something Completely Different

[DearEmma]

Well, at least different for me and kind of an experiment.

I wrote a sonnet sequence of six sonnets that tell a story. I'm posting one each day this week (I hope, if they get approved each day) and the first got posted today.

Six Sonnets - I. The Lover Loves. http://*******.com/ygclqsk

I'm interested to know what you think of the poems, the sequence, the story, the evolution of the story, the fact that I didn't submit them all at once, or should have or anything else on your mind.

Thank you.

 

[bflagsst]

Well, at least different for me and kind of an experiment.

I wrote a sonnet sequence of six sonnets that tell a story. I'm posting one each day this week (I hope, if they get approved each day) and the first got posted today.

Six Sonnets - I. The Lover Loves.

I'm interested to know what you think of the poems, the sequence, the story, the evolution of the story, the fact that I didn't submit them all at once, or anything else on your mind.

Thank you.

Love the Kate Chopin reference. Robert Herrick, John Donne, and a few other folks of that era were into the sonnets sequence program.

I would prefer reading the whole sequence at one time, if you're reading a short story you want to have the whole thing in front of you. Most likely I won't read the whole thing if it's just a submission every day this week.

In your poem I don't really like the language, the word 'entwined' turns me off. It usually comes off sterile sounding when someone wants to write a sonnet in 'sonnet language'. I'd prefer a modern voice using the traditional form to tell your own story, something unique. I don't get much uniqueness from your first poem.

I forgot about Samuel Daniel! His program is very similar to what you're talking about. http://www.poemhunter.com/samuel-daniel/

 

[butters]

*waves hi to emma*

okay, I'll give my tuppence for what it's worth, but bear in mind I'm no great form-ist. I also recognise that 'rules' don't need to be cast in stone.

. The Lover Loves

My thoughts of you rest lightly on my heart
Where they brighten and burn into my mind.
There light thoughts turn dark and swiftly part
And passion with reason becomes entwined
Although I love I know not what I love
Nor now why since I know you not at all
And were I to discover that you love
Me not nor ever could, I would fall
Trapped inside the workings I conceive.
But my unruly heart denies that play
And holds what darkened minds cannot perceive
While you are unaware, I safely stay
In love expressed as much as I allow
And as little that you may not yet know.

I'm not fussed about some lines having 10 syllables and some 9, and can even get around the stress-swapping lines 2-3, but when a line becomes too unnaturally stressed that normal speech patterning is strained to the point of distracting me from the read then I have a problem. When it behaves that way, it strays too far from the iambic for me and I have to do mental leap-frogging in places to smooth it to my ear. Strict iambic pentameter has the potential to be pretty dull at times, but there's definitely space imo for a few extra syllables here or there to smooth the way for more natural inflection. When done sweetly, it replicates one of the most natural speech-patterns we use and so is rendered virtually invisible, leaving us to savour the imagery and deeper meanings within the text.
Now if only I were able to manage that

I like the premise of the write; it manages to stay this side of creepy, though it sets up possibilities for it to descend into darker territory.

I'm questioning the need for the initial 'My', line 1, feeling the line stands as well without it. L2 - as I read it aloud, more than once my tongue added an extra 'they' so it read 'where they brighten and they burn into my mind.' I'd also toy with 'to kindle bright and burn into my mind'.

L4 makes all kinds of problems for me - not what you're saying in the line but how it's said.

L5 I love. everything about that line sings out as right.
L6 is all awkward for me again. Maybe it's the lack of punctuation to isolate that 'now', or is that a typo and meant to be 'know'? see what I mean? While the reader (or at least this one) is being distracted with thoughts like these then they're not hearing the meaning behind your lines. If it's meant to be now a little swap around of words in that line makes easier reading:

Nor why, now, since I know you not at all

L8 - where it runs on from 7, it wouldn't hurt to add that extra syllable, so from this:

And were I to discover that you love
Me not nor ever could, I would fall

to this:

And were I to discover that you love
Me not, nor ever could, then I would fall

The last line gives me all sorts of problems.

Now, while this sounds a lot, it isn't. Minor tweaks would make it rest easier with me - and I know you didn't write it for me exclusively If I didn't like it overall, I'd not have bothered trying to see in detail where things were to trip me up.

And above all, this is just one opinion. Thanks for showing us this. I look forward to reading the rest and kinda like it appearing in sections the way you plan.

 

[lorencino]

My ha'penny's worth

Between Chipbutty and bflagsst you have more than enough to think about and I would ignore Chipbutty's self-effacing dismissal of her own opinion. I think her remarks on your lines are well worth considering.

Overall I think you have done a great job of trying to deal with an ancient form that still resonates enough today to have people like you attempt to master its demanding specifications. There is a danger, though, that you slip into matching the cadences and word-order that was normal for the metaphysical poets but has no solid foundation in today's idiom.

If you are attempting to recreate the aura of a distant time then. by all means, write poems like Donne wrote them, but because he and his contemporaries have already done it so well, you are going to have to be exceptionally brilliant to write poems outside of the context that Donne and Marvell etc. wrote in order to produce good literature. As a training exercise, this is a marvelous effort, but that is all I can see it as.

The above is very definitely an outpourings of personal bias as I really am not a fan of form poetry even as I admire the mental acrobatics entailed and that I am completely incapable of performing.

I guess all I am saying is look carefully to see if the effect of your work is a realization your intentions when you took up your pen.

 

[DearEmma]

Wow! Thank you so much. I wrote these a while back and I know them so well and am very close to them and have lost perspective and have no objectivity. I am very happy to have the opinions of three people with fresh eyes and ears who obviously took the time to read and think about what I was trying to do. And I do appreciate the gentle delivery of your opinion.

Your responses have uncovered some definite areas where I can improve and given me hope.

I believe some of the other sonnets will scan better and I do think some succeed more than others. But I very much look forward to your opinion to each and the story as a whole, if you can bear it. Your views will not be wasted.

 

[DearEmma]

And the next one's up.

Six Sonnets - II. The Lover Pleads. http://*******.com/ygclqsk

 

[bflagsst]

And the next one's up.

Six Sonnets - II. The Lover Pleads. http://*******.com/ygclqsk

saw it on the new poems page. the second line,

In my world with you without your knowledge

Sort of reflects the problem for me. The language is sort of sluggish, I have to stop and really think about who's talking and what they're trying to say. The poem as a whole is a good idea, I think I understand where you're going. I just don't think it was executed all that well. I'd advise, try to simplify what you're saying, take out what you think are poetic elements and then start again from there. With a list of what you want to say in fourteen lines.

Enjambment right? We have enjambment issues that don't really belong in the sort of sonnet I think you're aiming for.

 

[DearEmma]

I thought enjambment was one of the strengths of II. No?
In the line "In my world with you without your knowledge" there's alliteration and assonance. Am I trying too hard here? Trying to do too much? (trying to convey the situation where you notice someone but they don't notice you)

Enjambment is the continuation of a sentence or clause over a line-break. If a poet allows all the sentences of a poem to end in the same place as regular line-breaks, a kind of deadening can happen in the ear, and in the brain too, as all the thoughts can end up being the same length. Enjambment is one way of creating audible interest.

 

[bflagsst]

I thought enjambment was one of the strengths of II. No?
In the line "In my world with you without your knowledge" there's alliteration and assonance. Am I trying too hard here? Trying to do too much? (trying to convey the situation where you notice someone but they don't notice you)

Enjambment is the continuation of a sentence or clause over a line-break. If a poet allows all the sentences of a poem to end in the same place as regular line-breaks, a kind of deadening can happen in the ear, and in the brain too, as all the thoughts can end up being the same length. Enjambment is one way of creating audible interest.

Yeah, it's the enjambment in the third and fourth lines, and the 'doom' line. The enjambment works in the middle of the poem, appeal and all that, that's the traditional audible break caused by a true rhyme. Where you have 'doom' beginning a line and 'vulgar' separated from 'machinations' there is no break in syntax, that's a more clear cut case of enjambment. Your 'vulgar' and 'longer' don't meet where they should in rhyme world. 'Fierceness' and 'Forgiveness' need true rhyme, and 'Own' is left hanging. The classical enjambment you can't leave a line without an excellent rhyme. Someone else will have to look at it for the technical stuff, I've confused myself.


If thou must love me, let it be for nought
Except for love's sake only. Do not say
'I love her for her smile---her look---her way
Of speaking gently,---for a trick of thought
That falls in well with mine, and certes brought
A sense of pleasant ease on such a day'---
For these things in themselves, Belovèd, may
Be changed, or change for thee,---and love, so wrought,
May be unwrought so. Neither love me for
Thine own dear pity's wiping my cheeks dry,---
A creature might forget to weep, who bore
Thy comfort long, and lose thy love thereby!
But love me for love's sake, that evermore
Thou mayst love on, through love's eternity.

As always, if what I'm saying isn't helpful just ignore it. Good lines and bad lines are the same in that you can point each out by ear but you only have to explain why a bad line is bad, the good ones get a free pass.

 

[butters]

If thou must love me, let it be for nought
Except for love's sake only. Do not say
'I love her for her smile---her look---her way
Of speaking gently,---for a trick of thought
That falls in well with mine, and certes brought
A sense of pleasant ease on such a day'---
For these things in themselves, Belovèd, may
Be changed, or change for thee,---and love, so wrought,
May be unwrought so. Neither love me for
Thine own dear pity's wiping my cheeks dry,---
A creature might forget to weep, who bore
Thy comfort long, and lose thy love thereby!
But love me for love's sake, that evermore
Thou mayst love on, through love's eternity.

ah, Elizzibet. this is a cool example of how the iambic works so smoothly, enough to disappear while lending inflection, and how other words are enhanced by the enjambment - directing more attention towards them. lovely writing.

 

[butters]

hey, emma. Just been taking a read through your second piece.


Allow me to linger a while longer
In my world with you without your knowledge
Before I render up all my vulgar
Machinations and my place on the edge
Between life with pretense and life without.
I am like a thief who finds strength to steal
In deep night, but by day is found out
Through some careless mistake. Though he appeal
For mercy he finds none, for forgiveness,
He receives none and thus has caused his own
Doom. May he then remember the fierceness
With which the crime was thought and the deed done.
So like a thief I hide now what I can
And risk to take punishment for my plan.


I'm seeing much the same problems as your first gave me. Adding the odd word to smooth the iambs would help me, poor reader, and I'm even feeling a few rhymes have been shoe-horned to make it fit - like your use of 'knowledge' and 'edge' even while I like that phrase you've used 'and my place on the edge between life with pretense and life without'. You are managing to get something across to me, because you're getting me to feel some empathy for this character and not merely disdain.

In your first line, just by adding some word like sweet or then will then put the iambs back into their natural patterning for me:

Allow me, sweet, to linger a while longer

Allow me, then, to linger a while longer

For me, enjambment is a wonderful tool: when used with a light touch, it doesn't detract from the reader's pleasure but serves the writer's intentions.

So, L2 is clunky, the phrase 'through some careless mistake' feels there for no purpose - ok, it's purpose is to mention 'careless mistake' but tagged on where it is makes little sense to me since it mucks up the rest of that line. Personally I'd try to lose that and rewrite around it. Similarly, with a little juggling, Doom could be brought back to end a line where it'd sit more comfortably (i'm sure) than where it perches now.

As I look at these pieces from you, Emma, I'm seeing nearly everything is there, the ingredients, as it were - and, if you'll forgive me for messing about with adages and mixing metaphors or whatever the saying is, seems to me your poems are like rubik's cubes: twist em around a little and hey presto, everything'll line up like ducks in an alley.

 

[DearEmma]

Thanks again so much for your feedback. It's wonderful to find out what I can do to improve these for the reader after fussing with them by myself. I had to laugh, though, Chipbutty, that you didn't like "doom" where it was. I actually worked hard to get it there, by itself, stopping the poem dead in its tracks because that word to me exemplified the poem and the entire sequence. And I laughed not at your critique but that what I thought was so cool and clever doesn't seem to work.

Anyway, the third one's up if you can bear it. Six Sonnets - III. The Lover Waits http://*******.com/ygclqsk

Thank you.

 

[butters]

Thanks again so much for your feedback. It's wonderful to find out what I can do to improve these for the reader after fussing with them by myself. I had to laugh, though, Chipbutty, that you didn't like "doom" where it was. I actually worked hard to get it there, by itself, stopping the poem dead in its tracks because that word to me exemplified the poem and the entire sequence. And I laughed not at your critique but that what I thought was so cool and clever doesn't seem to work.

Anyway, the third one's up if you can bear it. Six Sonnets - III. The Lover Waits http://*******.com/ygclqsk

Thank you.

DearEmma

above all else, any changes you undertake must be done feeling right for you. To alienate yourself from your own write, which I'm sure you appreciate can happen when we chop and change something we're fond of to suit others' tastes, is one of the worst crimes to make. The ultimate goal has to be to be faithful to the voice of the individual poem. I looked at it again and it seems that Doom, capitalised, and followed by a period at the end of the lines creates a fairly strong stop to work for you.

I have to go and do my poetry reviews for today. If I find the time to think later I'll take a look at number 3.




okay, my comments on your number 3 are up in the Poetry Recommendations thread

 

[DearEmma]

Thanks again. I am trying to gain a new perspective on these poems individually and as a series and appreciate all your thoughts as first impression readers. It's not so much suiting others' taste as it is trying to appreciate and improve them by looking at them from a different angle, one that I can't access without your help.

So the saga continues with a bit of desperation. Six Sonnets - IV. The Lover Blames http://*******.com/ygclqsk

Thank you.

 

[greenmountaineer]

hey, emma. Just been taking a read through your second piece.


Allow me to linger a while longer
In my world with you without your knowledge
Before I render up all my vulgar
Machinations and my place on the edge
Between life with pretense and life without.
I am like a thief who finds strength to steal
In deep night, but by day is found out
Through some careless mistake. Though he appeal
For mercy he finds none, for forgiveness,
He receives none and thus has caused his own
Doom. May he then remember the fierceness
With which the crime was thought and the deed done.
So like a thief I hide now what I can
And risk to take punishment for my plan.


I'm seeing much the same problems as your first gave me. Adding the odd word to smooth the iambs would help me, poor reader, and I'm even feeling a few rhymes have been shoe-horned to make it fit - like your use of 'knowledge' and 'edge' even while I like that phrase you've used 'and my place on the edge between life with pretense and life without'. You are managing to get something across to me, because you're getting me to feel some empathy for this character and not merely disdain.

In your first line, just by adding some word like sweet or then will then put the iambs back into their natural patterning for me:

Allow me, sweet, to linger a while longer

Allow me, then, to linger a while longer

For me, enjambment is a wonderful tool: when used with a light touch, it doesn't detract from the reader's pleasure but serves the writer's intentions.

So, L2 is clunky, the phrase 'through some careless mistake' feels there for no purpose - ok, it's purpose is to mention 'careless mistake' but tagged on where it is makes little sense to me since it mucks up the rest of that line. Personally I'd try to lose that and rewrite around it. Similarly, with a little juggling, Doom could be brought back to end a line where it'd sit more comfortably (i'm sure) than where it perches now.

As I look at these pieces from you, Emma, I'm seeing nearly everything is there, the ingredients, as it were - and, if you'll forgive me for messing about with adages and mixing metaphors or whatever the saying is, seems to me your poems are like rubik's cubes: twist em around a little and hey presto, everything'll line up like ducks in an alley.

I wonder if I might add some thoughts for you to consider as well. I like the sonnet very much. My own thoughts have to do with an intuitive sense of sound and syntax, not necessarily based on any formal training.

I too like enjambment when intentionally and infrequently used. “Doom” doesn’t work for me either because it gives me the impression you didn’t consider modifying the syntax of the line that precedes it to give a concluding thought that I think would have been sufficient. I think the linked line always needs more than one syllable or even one word.

I think enjambment works very well when the linked line creates something unexpected. In L3 by changing “my” to “the,” I interpret “vulgar” to be an abstract noun and with that momentary pause at the end of the line, my imagination goes somewhere with that, but then I realize that “vulgar” is an adjective that modifies “machinations” and now I’m a bit more curious than before and find what I’m looking for when I read “pretense.”

Besides, perhaps because of "pretense," I'm not convinced your machinations are as vulgar as the way society tends to make us that way.

Many writers, yours truly included, have used enjambment perhaps too much to link a long sentence just to maintain a sense of rhythm to the thought, but I think when enjambment is used with that subtle pause at the line break with a slightly different twist or curve with what follows, poetry gets a little closer to what Frost described as “the sudden discovery of delight.” Of course, it’s just one device.

Another observation: when I read “Though he appeal for mercy he finds none,” I read “appeal” as subjunctive with “may” implied and preceding it. If that was your intention, I’d find a way, if possible, to re-work the syntax to include “may” to be more precise in your meaning.

If you meant the indicative mood , I think “appeals” works better grammatically with the verb “finds” that follows. I know a word ending in “s” (appeals) and beginning with “f” (for) do tend to hit each other over the head, but I don’t think they do when there’s a pause between them at the end of the line. Others may disagree.

If this seems all minutiae to you, I have the excuse that the Sisters of Mercy made me diagram too many compound sentences when I was in parochial school.

One reason I like sonnets, and I know others don’t, has to do with what I may incorrectly refer to as the heroic couplet that brings some resolution to the work. I thought you did a marvelous job of that with this sonnet. I’ve not been reading too many posted poems lately but intend to do so with your other sonnets, hoping they as enjoyable as this one.

 

[bflagsst]

Enjambment in any rigid verse is difficult. I think I've read all your sonnets so far, I too like your end couplets, probably my favorite part of the poems. I'm still having difficulty going with the flow, and I'm not a metrical wizard but I think some of your feet are stressed where they should be unstressed and vice versa.

 

[DearEmma]

Thanks again. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the metered poetry equivalent of tone deaf.

Next one's up. Six Sonnets - V. The Lover Dreams http://*******.com/ygclqsk

 

[Epmd607]

Thanks again. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the metered poetry equivalent of tone deaf.

Next one's up. Six Sonnets - V. The Lover Dreams http://*******.com/ygclqsk

"So will it live as long as what I write
s in every shadow of every night."

"Though my faults in virtue are indeed great
Your unknown crimes deserve so cruel a mate."

It seems like you usually catch the beat in your end couplets, so you know how meter works. Maybe try approaching the entire sonnet as if it's couplet upon couplet. You might be thinking ahead a couple lines and in doing so drop the rhythm of the line you're on. Ten syllables was a standard for a reason, you can beat the rhythm out on your desk.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the metered poetry equivalent of tone deaf.
http://*******.com/ygclqsk

Nonsense. I think you have a wonderful ear. For me number three is the best scan-wise, but they all work. It must have been challenging to write a story in sonnets, congratulations.

 

[lorencino]

Nonsense. I think you have a wonderful ear. For me number three is the best scan-wise, but they all work. It must have been challenging to write a story in sonnets, congratulations.

Quite an imperious word, that nonsense. Careful how your opinions are a clue to what you are.

 

[DearEmma]

The last one.

Six Sonnets - VI. The Lover Leaves http://*******.com/ygclqsk

 

[bflagsst]

The last one.

Six Sonnets - VI. The Lover Leaves http://*******.com/ygclqsk

I like this poem.

I see you went with ten syllables, have true rhymes. I'd prefer having 'wins' and 'things' rhyme in the couplet. Just curious, from what I read it seemed like you did take our advice during the week? Did you alter your sonnets as you went, with our critiques in mind? I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that; usually people just keep on with their program like a machine. If you didn't, maybe I just haven't read them in order or something. But it would give me the smallest pleasure, probably some others here too, knowing you did take some of our advice and applied it, especially with number vi.

 

[DearEmma]

I took and appreciated all your advice and encouragement. I thank you all for bearing with me and for your opinions and feedback. It is extremely helpful to find out how others see these. I did tweak along the way, but I intend to take a shot at overhauling with your suggestions in mind. We'll see how that goes. Thanks again.