Anachronisms and other misteaks in literature

[MathGirl]

I'm reading "Comanche Moon" by Larry McMurtry. It's the second time I've read it, and I didn't catch the anachronism the first time. It's set in Texas during the period prior to the Civil War. It doesn't state a year, but it must be in the 1855-60 range.

The Texas Rangers are using repeating rifles and pistols and purchasing metallic cartridges for the guns. The only repeaters in that era were cylinder revolvers and some rare cylinder rifles. They were of the "cap and ball" variety and used loose powder, usually spherical lead balls, and percussion caps. Metallic cartridges were developed during the Civil War and only came into general use later.

I hate books in which writers make mistakes which could have been avoided by a little research. I'm really surprised that McMurtry would have let that go by.

MG, Outraged
Ps. )_&^%*&^!!

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

MG,

I'm no gun expert, but IMHO, you may not be just exactly 100% right. Here's a quote from a web site, civilwarguns.com

"The name "Colt" is synonymous with "revolver", for it was Samuel Colt who patented and produced the first American revolver in 1837. Colt's next pistol, the Walker Model produced in 1847, was a massive hunk of iron, and threw a .44 slug. The Walkers were designed with the assistance of a Texas Ranger Captain named Walker, and only 1,100 were produced. The size and power of the Walker was impressive, however, and Colt's third venture into production revolvers was the Colt Dragoon, which was a slightly smaller copy of the Walkers. About 15,000 Dragoon Models were manufactured from 1848 to 1861."

As for repeating rifles, there were at least two besides the Colt revolving cylinder model you mentione. I believe both Henry and Spencer produced repeating rifles in the 1850's which used metal cartridges.

Respectfully submitted,

Rumple Foreskin

 

[The_Fool]

Both the Henry and Spencer Repeating Rifles were developed in 1860-1861. The Walker Colt was a black powder revolver using loose powder as propellent. A bitch to load and dangerous as hell. Potential existed for sparks to set off all six chambers at once.

 

[Guest]

Hey Fool, I was thinking of stalking you, but now that I see you're some kind of smoking phallic expert I think I'll just check in on you from time to time.

friendly like, Perdita

 

[The_Fool]

Hey Fool, I was thinking of stalking you, but now that I see you're some kind of smoking phallic expert I think I'll just check in on you from time to time.

friendly like, Perdita

The only phallus that I am truly an expert at is my own. And the first, last and most important thing I have learned is that it has a mind of its own. Oh well, what an occasional stiffy among friends?



Fool

 

[Guest]

Oh well, what an occasional stiffy among friends?

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?

Is that a scroll in your toga, or are you just happy to see me?

 

[oggbashan]

Clock strikes three

In Shakespeare's Julius Caesar Act II Scene 1 the clock strikes three.

Romans did not have striking clocks in Caesar's time but was Shakespeare just be anachronistic or did he mean to jar the audience with the incongruity of a modern device?

Discuss. Research. If you find less than a million words about Shakespeare's clock you haven't looked far enough.

Og

 

[MathGirl]

MG,

I'm no gun expert, but IMHO, you may not be just exactly 100% right. Here's a quote from a web site, civilwarguns.com

"The name "Colt" is synonymous with "revolver", for it was Samuel Colt who patented and produced the first American revolver in 1837. Colt's next pistol, the Walker Model produced in 1847, was a massive hunk of iron, and threw a .44 slug. The Walkers were designed with the assistance of a Texas Ranger Captain named Walker, and only 1,100 were produced. The size and power of the Walker was impressive, however, and Colt's third venture into production revolvers was the Colt Dragoon, which was a slightly smaller copy of the Walkers. About 15,000 Dragoon Models were manufactured from 1848 to 1861."

Dear Rumple,
The Colt's Walker, Dragoon, and Paterson were all percussion pistols. The Navy was .36 cal, the Army .44. Both were used in the Civil War, and many were later modified to take metallic cartridges postwar. Until the Peacemaker, most frontier pistols were conversions of Colt's cap and ball pistols. There were thousands availavle for almost nothing, and coversion was easy. My father has examples of all these in his collection.
MG

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Clock strikes three

In Shakespeare's Julius Caesar Act II Scene 1 the clock strikes three.

Dear Og,
I knew you would bring that up. That ain't as important as gun anachronism, though. At least not at five aye emm.
MG
Ps. ()&(*(*&%*###@!! Brits
Pps. Actually it's probably more important, but I've got my teeth into firearms anachronism now, and I won't let go.
Ppps. Walt the Beagle won't stop howling, either.
Pppps. Please note time of this is 0530.
Ppppps. )(&*&^*&(&^%##@@!!
Pppppps. Why do I suddenly have an urge to shoot Walter with a large bore pistol?

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Clock strikes three

Dear Fool,
Original Henrys and Spencers weren't repeaters. Repeaters developed in 60-61, but hardly used at all in Civil War. Not accepted by military as reliable. Couldn't have been widely used in Texas in the 50s.
MG
Ps. I'm argumentative when I'm awakened at 5 aye emm by Walter the Beagle howling.
Pps. Multiple firing of cap and ball revolvers common due to sparks traveling to adjacent cylinders, past ball, into powder, boom. Solution: Place grease in front of each ball.
Ppps. Shooting cap and ball revolvers with black powder and Vaseline very messy and stinky business. Come home looking like been in forest fire but smell worse.
Pppps. Percussion revolvers had their drawbacks, but a guy probably felt like a poker player with a straight flush when confronted by three Apaches with hatchets.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Here we reach one of the big issues that my novel is stalling...I have to keep jumping into research mode. I want to stay as close to history as possible, although since it's fiction, I may have to alter here and there

 

[oggbashan]

Re: Re: Re: Clock strikes three

Dear Fool,
Pppps. Percussion revolvers had their drawbacks, but a guy probably felt like a poker player with a straight flush when confronted by three Apaches with hatchets.

Not quite a straight flush. With the powder of the time, after first shot he couldn't see the second and third Apache through the smoke of the first discharge and if firing a Walker Dragoon probably had a broken wrist.

Still better than Minie rifled double barrelled pistols. Recoil from discharge of .7 slug could knock the firer to the ground. If the idiot pulled both triggers together would be knocked to the middle of next week. Impressive boom though, only beaten by so-called wall guns of Henry VIII's time. You needed to anchor the gun to a wall to have any chance of surviving the recoil. 2 or 3 inch bore with a large charge of modern black powder is suicidal.

Og (who fired vintage arms in outback Australia before they changed their laws)

 

[MathGirl]

Cool firearms

Originally posted by oggbashan Not quite a straight flush. With the powder of the time, after first shot he couldn't see the second and third Apache through the smoke of the first discharge and if firing a Walker Dragoon probably had a broken wrist. Still better than Minie rifled double barrelled pistols. Recoil from discharge of .7 slug could knock the firer to the ground. If the idiot pulled both triggers together would be knocked to the middle of next week. Impressive boom though, only beaten by so-called wall guns of Henry VIII's time. You needed to anchor the gun to a wall to have any chance of surviving the recoil. 2 or 3 inch bore with a large charge of modern black powder is suicidal.

Dear Og,
Your knowledge is impressive. One reason the Walkers were so massive was to provide weight to help stabalize recoil. Please note that I specified THREE pissed off Apaches. Considering that those C & B revolvers were carried with an empty chamber under the hammer and allowing for lost caps and misfires, I think three successful discharges from a so-called six shooter was realistic. Let's call it a full house.

I've seen "punt guns" which were used to shoot large numbers of ducks sitting on the water with one shot. Two gauge shotguns loaded with massive charges of black powder behind scrap iron, nuts, bolts, etc. Mounted on swivels in flat boats. Recoil would send boat back about ten yards. Not for the faint of heart.

Only purists (nuts) use black powder anymore. There a smokeless powder called Pyrodex that has the same burn characteristics as black, but it's "smokeless" and noncorrosive.
MG
Ps. I'm soooooo butch
Pps. Beagle update: Now that the sun is up and everyone is awake, Walter has finally settled down after a hard night of howling.
Ppps. When repeaters became available during the final phases of the Civil War, they were rejected by the army as being "Wasteful of ammunition." Ah, the military mind.
Pppps. That great military genius George Armstrong Custer used a Colt's Walker to shoot his own horse through the head during a skirmish.
Ppppps. A man carrying a Colt's dragoon in his pants was commonly mistaken for BSnake.

 

[Guest]

ambling carefully here

Shakespeare also put a seashore in Bohemia in The Winter's Tale. His anachronisms are his own. He rewrote history at times too. Durnt marrur to me.

Perdita

 

[The_Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Clock strikes three

Dear Fool,
Original Henrys and Spencers weren't repeaters. Repeaters developed in 60-61, but hardly used at all in Civil War. Not accepted by military as reliable. Couldn't have been widely used in Texas in the 50s.
MG
Ps. I'm argumentative when I'm awakened at 5 aye emm by Walter the Beagle howling.
Pps. Multiple firing of cap and ball revolvers common due to sparks traveling to adjacent cylinders, past ball, into powder, boom. Solution: Place grease in front of each ball.
Ppps. Shooting cap and ball revolvers with black powder and Vaseline very messy and stinky business. Come home looking like been in forest fire but smell worse.
Pppps. Percussion revolvers had their drawbacks, but a guy probably felt like a poker player with a straight flush when confronted by three Apaches with hatchets.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Winchester repeating rifle of choice was Winchester 1873, then Winchester 1894. Win 1894 is still pretty much the same one sold today.

Most of my reading is a guy carrying cap and ball pistols actively engaged in hostilities with Indians, Mexicans or them Damn Yankees was probably carrying more than one. Or had interchangeable cylinders preloaded.

Also probably would have been lard or grease, not vaseline.

I'm cranky today...

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Clock strikes three

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Winchester repeating rifle of choice was Winchester 1873, then Winchester 1894. Win 1894 is still pretty much the same one sold today.
Most of my reading is a guy carrying cap and ball pistols actively engaged in hostilities with Indians, Mexicans or them Damn Yankees was probably carrying more than one. Or had interchangeable cylinders preloaded.
Also probably would have been lard or grease, not vaseline. I'm cranky today...

Dear Fool,
I have a Win 1894 that belonged to my great grandpa. Still shoots perfectly. I killed several rogue beer cans with it last month. .30.30

I'm tempted to say something about hostilities with Mexicans and grease for percussion cylinders, but that would be terribly non-PC.

MG

Ps. You ain't seen cranky until you've heard Walter Beagle howl all night.

 

[Chicklet]

Since I know next to nothing about everything, whenever I find a mistake I feel very disapointed in the author - if *I* can catch it, he or she really wasn't trying very hard.

 

[Quint]

Estne volumen in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre?

Is that a scroll in your toga, or are you just happy to see me?

Semper tua epigrammates acerba sed clara sunt; tibi do honorem, gloriamque, et togam novam.

Balba in benevolentia sum,
Quint

Your epigrams are always sharp but clear; I give you honor, glory, and a new toga.

Stammering in good will, I am,
Quint

 

[Quasimodem]

Shakespeare . . . rewrote history at times too. . . .

Of course, some of it was a simple survival technique, especially in his histories.

Had he written the truth - provided he could learn the truth - he may well have ended his days debating dramatic licence, competing versions of fact, and the need for speculation in unrecorded portions of any historic dramatization.

These days, bad history can get you a bad review.

In Shakespeare's day, it could lead to the Tower, and a terminal weight reduction program.


STILL

I have often be tickled by the urge to purposely write a grossly anarchistic story. First for humour, then as a test of the reader, to guess how many anarchic references there were - and which ones were anarchic, and which ones weren’t.

Finally, it would also be a test of the writer’s knowledge.

Think how embarrassing it would be if - in the midst of the hilarity over anarchic jokes - an unplanned anarchism were found, also in the mix.

 

[Guest]

Of course, some of it was a simple survival technique, especially in his histories. ...
In Shakespeare's day, it could lead to the Tower, and a terminal weight reduction program.

Sh're took big chances and constantly dealt with censors. Dramatizing the Henry and Richard lore took courage (e.g., the houses of Lancaster and York). There is no Sh're king who comes off sweetly and without great sin. Fortunately Elizabeth I was an intelligent and extraordinarily literate monarch (but that does not lessen the risks Sh're took).

 

[MathGirl]

Oopsie

Originally posted by Quasimodem Think how embarrassing it would be if - in the midst of the hilarity over anarchic jokes - an unplanned anarchism were found, also in the mix.

Dear Quaz,
I hate to be picky, but I want to be sure. We are talking anachronisms here, aren't we?
MG
Ps. I agree, that would be fun. Oh, gotta go, my Huson Hornet is all warmed up.
Pps. I'm sure it would be possible to have anachronisms in a society without government.
Ppps. Dear Perdita, Are you still speaking to me?

 

[ffreak]

So where do I find these millions of words about Shakespeare's cock?

Oh (just put my glasses back on) there's an 'L' in that word.

 

[Vincent E]

Re: Cool firearms

Only purists (nuts) use black powder anymore.

Hey, I resemble that remark.

Of course if this story were being turned into a movie today it would have Sylvester Stallone picking up a gatling gun from its mount so that he could flex his muscles as he mowed down every Indian in the world without ever getting a scratch on him. Then, once he exhausted his ammo, he would pull out two LeMat's and fire off about twenty shots for each gun (I know, I know they only had nine cylinders each) before using the smooth-bores to blow up some covered wagon loaded with nitro.

Anyone ever see the movie Jeremiah Johnson starring Robert Redford? It is probably the most accurate movie for firearms set before the Civil War because the director, John Milius, is a bona fide gun nut who did actual research.

Editorial note that will get me yelled at: We are devolving into a culture so paranoid of firearms that we do not bother to at least learn the historical significance of firearms development in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. Fortunately we have the History Channel to address that problem.

 

[oggbashan]

Re: Re: Cool firearms

Editorial note that will get me yelled at: We are devolving into a culture so paranoid of firearms that we do not bother to at least learn the historical significance of firearms development in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. Fortunately we have the History Channel to address that problem.

Handguns are now illegal in the UK even for Olympic pistoleers so they practice (and keep their guns) in France.

Now there is a campaign to ban replica guns as well.

Guess what? Since handguns were banned more killings are done with them. The bad guys don't abide by the law. What a surprise.

At the moment (but "they" want to change that) you can still collect de-activated guns but they become a target for thieves because any backyard mechanic can re-activate most of them.

As a kid I played with a Sherman and a Grant tank that were just left with broken engines. The turret of the Sherman could still be rotated by handcrank. Both tanks' main guns could be loaded with the shells left in the racks. We didn't fire the shells. We were "sensible" 9 year olds.

I toured many big gun ships. I was impressed by the main armament of HMS Vanguard but knew that the aircraft carrier down the quay was the future and the Vanguard's big guns were the past. I fired the quad Bofors. That was fun but not such fun being the loader.

I'd like to have been Dirty Harry with HMS Vanguard's guns. "You feel lucky?"

In Portsmouth they have the Mary Rose, HMS Victory, and HMS Warrior. Each in its day was one of the most powerful gun platforms afloat. HMS Warrior was the ultimate deterrent of its day. A submerged missile submarine doesn't give the same impression of sheer power as the big guns of the past.

I liked Wednesday afternoons as a kid. I was on Gibraltar. Wednesday afternoon was gunnery practice. Heavy shells flying overhead and the target (usually) disappearing in seconds while the Rock shook like a jelly from the multiple recoil.

MG mentioned punts recoiling from the discharge of a duck gun. Battleships shifted sideways for 200 metres from the recoil of the main armament. One of our 19th century battleships couldn't fire its 18inch main armament except in anger because the recoil did more damage than the enemy was likely to do.

Og (big gun and black powder fan reduced to looking at photos)

 

[johngalt47]

Recoil

MG mentioned punts recoiling from the discharge of a duck gun. Battleships shifted sideways for 200 metres from the recoil of the main armament. One of our 19th century battleships couldn't fire its 18inch main armament except in anger because the recoil did more damage than the enemy was likely to do.

Sorry, Og - a little physics calculation will show that there's no way that firing even the broadside available on USS Missouri (9 16" guns, each firing a shell weighing one ton) could move a 45,000 ton battleship two hudred yards.

Similarly, there are no modern hand-held weapons that would knock down the holder, or for that matter knock down the person who is the target, despite what we see Sly Stallone doing.

______________________________________________

Please, Mister Custer, I don't want to go!

Prompted by another sixties song on another thread.