An uncredited "revision" - is it plagiarism or simply unoriginal?

[Alhazred]

I recently came across a story ("Jill and Chris" by Solrac) that was well written, erotic, and something that would be a perfect candidate for a sequel. However, it also felt very familiar. Now, I'll be the first to say that themes and elements can overlap often. That's to be expected, particularly with eroticism - there are only so many truly original ways to write a descriptive blowjob, for example. And particularly when the attention if focused on one particular genre (in this case, incest/taboo), situations, scenarios, setups, etc. can often repeat themselves. This happens. It's to be expected. I have no problem with it. But in this particular story, one of the comments pointed to a specific story (The first installment in the "Mom Fulfills Son's Desires" series by NakdSalr) that was written in 2003. Between the two, the situations, setup, and story itself are all virtually identical. Even many lines of dialog are verbatim. The primary differences are that the ending and the names have been changed, as has the phrasing throughout.

Here is an example:

From one story:

"She started to spin one way then reversed her direction. The ploy worked and she was able to spin around. But Jill realized her mistake when she found herself face to face with her son and his rigid cock buried against her pussy mound. Tim too was caught unaware. It took him a moment to realize his good fortune. He dipped slightly and thrust hard against the v between her thighs."

From the other story:

"She started to spin one way then reversed her direction. The ploy worked and she was able to spin around. But Jill realized her mistake when she found herself face to face with her son and his rigid hardness pressed again against her pussy. Chris too was caught unaware. It took him a moment to realize his good fortune. He dipped slightly and thrust hard against her."

So the question I pose for discussion is this:

If you take someone else's story and simply change the names and a few details, then republish it under your own name without acknowledging the original author in any way, how much credit or praise should you receive for the "new" story?

 

[Mr_Neb]

Looks like plagiarism to me, plain and simple. There is an old saying, "Steal from one and it is plagiarism. Steal from many and it is research." I don't think your example above constitutes research.

Mr. Neb

 

[sr71plt]

It's a clear example of plagiarism--unless the author is the same person writing under two different names. Then it's just repurposing. Looks like a case to report to the Web site owners and let them determine if somethings been stolen.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Absolutely, it's plagerism. If you look at my latest offering http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=341587&page=1
you will see that I have credited the original author who dreamed up the situation. I also got emailed permission from him to use it and add a new chapter. This, to me, is a very sticky kind of situation and I agonized over it with Varian P (who suggested getting permission from K.K.) and have come to believe that one should get permission first and write a new story later. Intellectual property is, after all, property and taking it is theft!

 

[MarshAlien]

It's a clear example of plagiarism--unless the author is the same person writing under two different names. Then it's just repurposing. Looks like a case to report to the Web site owners and let them determine if somethings been stolen.

Uh-oh. Did someone already write that? My bad. But I do agee with everything the pilot said. You should let Laurel know about it, and she can sort it out. She will give the "author" of the new piece a chance to explain, and take appropriate action if he/she can't.

 

[Striknine]

Yep, it's plagarism. Theme, plot and sequence of events can and often will be similar. But particular actions within a sequence will be different if coming from different authors. The actions in the two examples given are too alike to be chance.

 

[Jagged]

I never thought copying somone else like that was terriably creative. I have taken concepts to be sure, but that does seem like plagiarism

 

[Solrac]

Reply to grievant

I have spent considerable time trying to find where I first read this story since you began your rant. I appreciate what appears to be your concern for Nkd Sailor, but unless he/she wrote a version where the Mother's name was Janet and the son was "underage", then it was not his that I read. I believe I even asked the help of an editor as to how to revise it such as to keep the storyline and yet be "age" approved by Literotica.
I am going to ask Literotica to add a prelude to the story indicating that it was "rewritten" from another story and that the author, whoever it was, can freely claim it as his/her own. You can't imagine how little I really care who claims authorship. Part two, which I am writing, they may also freely claim as I write for my own entertainment, and post purely for what entertainment a possible reader might derive from it's perusal. And as you noticed, I quite willingly gave an avenue to contact me, vote, comment... on the story and have yet to delete your own comments... which you never bothered spending the few moments it would have taken to inquire of me about all this.....

 

[sr71plt]

I have spent considerable time trying to find where I first read this story since you began your rant. I appreciate what appears to be your concern for Nkd Sailor, but unless he/she wrote a version where the Mother's name was Janet and the son was "underage", then it was not his that I read. I believe I even asked the help of an editor as to how to revise it such as to keep the storyline and yet be "age" approved by Literotica.
I am going to ask Literotica to add a prelude to the story indicating that it was "rewritten" from another story and that the author, whoever it was, can freely claim it as his/her own. You can't imagine how little I really care who claims authorship. Part two, which I am writing, they may also freely claim as I write for my own entertainment, and post purely for what entertainment a possible reader might derive from it's perusal. And as you noticed, I quite willingly gave an avenue to contact me, vote, comment... on the story and have yet to delete your own comments... which you never bothered spending the few moments it would have taken to inquire of me about all this.....

I can feel your pain. A charge of plagiarism certainly should be backed up with researchable proof--or it's just nasy innuendo. Also, a direct communication with the suspected plagiarist could clear up most of the suspected examples before they get to the public accusation point. I have been accused of plagiarism openly like this on stories of mine I've either plundered myself to develop in a different way (which is a fun and creative exercise) and ones posted under different names (of my own) on different sites. The name I post on here at Lit., for instance, is only used here--because Lit. wouldn't register the name I use on all other sites.

I, for one, won't consider this an example of plagiarism unless I'm given URLs for both versions and it's confirmed the same author hasn't posted both versions.

I've sort of waited for this foot to drop on a three-story series here (in the GM section, with titles beginning "Bellapais). My coauthor here and I took the identical key paragraph and we each wrote a story around that and also wrote a combined story. Again, a fun and creative literary exercise--and we have plans for other stories built on this paragraph as well. Laurel was informed what we were doing, but we haven't put a disclaimer (and won't) on the story, hoping that discovery of the repeated paragraph will be an interesting revelation for readers--although we hoped the clear relationship established by the titles would clue the reader that the sharing was known by the creator of the paragraph.

 

[mrklin]

Plagiarism is plagiarism - the intent doesn't matter. Taking a story that you basically like and rewriting it to better suit you, or to meet the criteria of a website you'd like to post it at, is still taking someone else's property.

Collaborative efforts, authorized revisions, or authors using different names are completely different subjects. All three have pros and cons, but they're all legal and ethical. There is nothing legal or ethical about taking someone else's work, tidying up the grammar, and changing a name, date, age, etc to suit you, then posting it under your own name without the original author's permission.

Having said all that, however, I will also say that I have not read either story involved in this thread, so I won't comment as to whether or not any plagiarism took place. That's for others to decide. The authors involved know the real deal. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, please continue shopping, and have a nice day...

 

[sr71plt]

Plagiarism is plagiarism - the intent doesn't matter. Taking a story that you basically like and rewriting it to better suit you, or to meet the criteria of a website you'd like to post it at, is still taking someone else's property.

Collaborative efforts, authorized revisions, or authors using different names are completely different subjects. All three have pros and cons, but they're all legal and ethical. There is nothing legal or ethical about taking someone else's work, tidying up the grammar, and changing a name, date, age, etc to suit you, then posting it under your own name without the original author's permission.

Having said all that, however, I will also say that I have not read either story involved in this thread, so I won't comment as to whether or not any plagiarism took place. That's for others to decide. The authors involved know the real deal. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, please continue shopping, and have a nice day...

True (and all said already). The point here is that it hasn't been established what this case is--so it's too early to be throwing bricks. (And was probably too early at the initial post if there was no attempt to get an explanation privately before going public.)

 

[secretme]

So the question I pose for discussion is this:

If you take someone else's story and simply change the names and a few details, then republish it under your own name without acknowledging the original author in any way, how much credit or praise should you receive for the "new" story?

Absolutely none! Taking someone else's story, regardless of simple changes you might make is plagiarism. Even if you only use one partial sentence word for word without a quote giving credit to the person who wrote that one section of words is plagiarized. Hell, under copyright law if you paraphrase without giving proper credit it's plagiarism. So on point one, yes it's plagiarism. Nuff said.

As far as how much credit and praise goes. I think the fact that the person is just using someone else's stuff speaks for itself. You give an editor credit for making your ideas better if someone goes back and rewords stuff and fixes things for you. AT that point it becomes group effort and the author and editor get credit for their respective work.

Anyway that's my two cents.

 

[secretme]

True (and all said already). The point here is that it hasn't been established what this case is--so it's too early to be throwing bricks. (And was probably too early at the initial post if there was no attempt to get an explanation privately before going public.)

agreed. but I thought the point for discussion pertained to the situation itself and not the particular story. maybe that should have been left out of the initial post if that was the point.

 

[sr71plt]

agreed. but I thought the point for discussion pertained to the situation itself and not the particular story. maybe that should have been left out of the initial post if that was the point.

When you name the allegedly offending story and author, how can you be talking in generalities rather than the particular story? Am I missing something here?

 

[secretme]

So the question I pose for discussion is this:

If you take someone else's story and simply change the names and a few details, then republish it under your own name without acknowledging the original author in any way, how much credit or praise should you receive for the "new" story?

When you name the allegedly offending story and author, how can you be talking in generalities rather than the particular story? Am I missing something here?

I was reading the last part of the original post and just thinking on that...

 

[sr71plt]

I was reading the last part of the original post and just thinking on that...

Well, it's fairly obvious what they are really targeting when they name the target in the first line of their post. (And in this case don't name the other story, so no one can verify what they are claiming.)

 

[secretme]

Well, it's fairly obvious what they are really targeting when they name the target in the first line of their post. (And in this case don't name the other story, so no one can verify what they are claiming.)

You sound like you're taking it personally.
Discussion is discussion.
If there really is plagiarism in question and it was publicly posted in the first place. Then everyone on the site has access to it anyway. Really the only thing at stake here is the author posting the credit or the explanation of the situation with the story in question. No one is going to remember this thread in two days time and the author will be forgotten if he's being falsely pointed out. If he did something wrong the chances of someone actually seeking action against him is pretty slim and public forum about the situation is a pretty mild punishment for what was done.

 

[sr71plt]

You sound like you're taking it personally.
Discussion is discussion.
If there really is plagiarism in question and it was publicly posted in the first place. Then everyone on the site has access to it anyway. Really the only thing at stake here is the author posting the credit or the explanation of the situation with the story in question. No one is going to remember this thread in two days time and the author will be forgotten if he's being falsely pointed out. If he did something wrong the chances of someone actually seeking action against him is pretty slim and public forum about the situation is a pretty mild punishment for what was done.

Nah, I'm not taking it personally. You suggested I misinterpreted. My response is "I don't think so." You're the one who resurrected an old thread--and from what you've written here I don't think you have a clue what the thread was about.

You're talking about punishment for "what was done" when there's no real evidence it was done.

 

[secretme]

Nah, I'm not taking it personally. You suggested I misinterpreted. My response is "I don't think so." You're the one who resurrected an old thread--and from what you've written here I don't think you have a clue what the thread was about.

You're talking about punishment for "what was done" when there's no real evidence it was done.

It was just something I noticed when looking through a forum I've never been in before. If you go back to my first post all I was talking about was my opinion of plagiarism. Not pertaining to anyone in particular. I didn't even note the name of the person accused. *sigh*
And I agreed with you in the first place, that it should have been discussed off forum first. In my second post.
I believe you're misinterpreting me as much as I may have misinterpreted you. And the "you don't have a clue" comment is unnecessary... Let's leave as a whatever and move on. I'm sorry you didn't take my comments in the light they were meant in. I'm done with this thread now.

 

[sr71plt]

It was just something I noticed when looking through a forum I've never been in before. If you go back to my first post all I was talking about was my opinion of plagiarism. Not pertaining to anyone in particular. I didn't even note the name of the person accused. *sigh*
And I agreed with you in the first place, that it should have been discussed off forum first. In my second post.
I believe you're misinterpreting me as much as I may have misinterpreted you. And the "you don't have a clue" comment is unnecessary... Let's leave as a whatever and move on. I'm sorry you didn't take my comments in the light they were meant in. I'm done with this thread now.

Probably just a thread that was well dead. The original poster made a public, unevidenced, serious charge, which would be libel if done against someone using their real name and if it wasn't supported with proof. So, again, in the absence of proof--and until proof shows up--the named author was being libeled, not "punished" for something he'd been proven to have done.