An open question for submissives of all types

[DVS]

What are your thoughts and opinions?

I have a friend who is very much a newbie, but very much into being a submissive woman.
As other women are, she is married to a man who has no desire to fulfill her submissive feelings or even understands this sort of lifestyle.
But, her desires are deep, and I have told her she should look for someone with the same interests to explore with.

I am one who does not believe in suffering without, because a husband is not willing, because there is just too much out there to experience and enjoy. She has guilt about her husband, but I look at it this way...if you tried to get him to play and he is not at all into it, that is his problem.

I don't think someone should try to replace a husband, if he will fulfill something for you, but I do feel it is OK for someone to venture out and find someone to fulfill what he flatly will not. I know that mindset isn't followed by some, but that is just how I feel. I also think it can save an otherwise shaky marriage. Divorce isn't always the best way to go, I don't think.

Now this thread isn't about my feelings or beliefs. This is for other submissives to come forward and help with their feelings on what they suggest my friend should do. I told her I was on a forum that had lots of very smart people, and would get some good info for her to think about.

So, this is her past:
She had a bit of a conservative childhood, and when she finally got out into the world she really got out into the world. But, she was raped more than once. As everybody knows, this does things to your mind, that are difficult to get past.

Now, she has the mental fears from rape and the guilt of a non participating husband, and she is just not sexually happy.

I have suggested she get with some munch group or at least some sort of email list where she can talk to other subs and find out just how others feel about what she can do.
But, she is not that open, so I said I would come on here and ask some questions for her.

Like I said, this is not about me. I am just relaying any information for her to think about. I would appreciate any and all valid comments about what any of you have experienced, what you have done to get past your demons, and what you would suggest she might try to get past hers.

I told her I think she should venture out and find a friend for some part time fun. Of course, sticking with the safe avenues of looking, and talking long before meeting and playing. But, she does know that until she actually meets someone, it won't be easy to get a feeling of what her potential partner could be like. Anyone can be wonderful, "online".

Like I said, she is a newbie. Don't think she has done more than a lot of thinking on this subject. Oh, she has done a LOT of thinking on this subject. The acting out is where she needs help.

So, I will leave it here, for now. You will be helping someone along her way on a life of sexual fulfillment, where otherwise she would just sit at home and be the frustrated wife.

I know there is more for her out there. Do you agree? Thanks for any posts, in advance.

 

[Lancecastor]

What are your thoughts and opinions?

I have a friend ....(edited throughout to highlite the issues as I see them, LC) she was raped more than once. As everybody knows, this does things to your mind, that are difficult to get past.

Now, she has the mental fears from rape and the guilt of a non participating husband, and she is just not sexually happy.

I have suggested she get with some munch group or at least some sort of email list where she can talk to other subs and find out just how others feel about what she can do.

I would appreciate any and all valid comments about what any of you .....would suggest she might try to get past hers.

I told her I think she should venture out and find a friend for some part time fun.

Like I said, she is a newbie. Don't think she has done more than a lot of thinking on this subject. Oh, she has done a LOT of thinking on this subject. The acting out is where she needs help.

So, I will leave it here, for now. You will be helping someone along her way on a life of sexual fulfillment, where otherwise she would just sit at home and be the frustrated wife.

I know there is more for her out there. Do you agree? Thanks for any posts, in advance.

I've heavily edited your original post to illustrate my reply.

First, I'm not a SubFem.

Second, if I had a Friend who was unhappy in her marriage and had been raped a number of times, I'd suggest she talk to her husband and/or seek professional counselling before any suggestion or support were lent towards BDSM activities as a newbie. Your post makes no mention of her emotional/mental state/stability other than to suggest these are things that "are difficult to get past".

That might be a rather large understatement, I suggest...and your primary duty as a friend is to support and point her to stability and making sense of her challenges, I think.

I don't think "part time fun" is what your friend "needs", based on your post in full.

I hope she finds peace.

Cheers;
LC

 

[DVS]

Thanks for your response. I understand you don't see some of her background, and even I can't understand some of it, because I have never been raped.

Only those who have been raped will understand the mental problems she is dealing with. She is not a basket case, by any means, but she does have issues that would force her to to slow in this, for sure. But, I feel the healthy thing to do is to continue in searching for something she wants.
As for her husband, he is probably not going to be in the picture. He is the father of her kids, and that is as far as it goes. He is not one I would consider a caring individual. There were times, but those are now gone. They both go through their daily lives and that is that. His is self involved, and hers involves the kids. Does this sound familiar to anyone out there?

Counseling has never been something I believe in either, but that is only my choice. If she wants to go that route, that is fine with me, but I don't see it as necessary.

Just taking time and going slow, is best. Actually, this can be considered as counseling, if you ask me. And, if at any time she feels she doesn't want to continue, she has that option too.

The mention of part time fun is because I feel she should stay married. Full time fun is possible, but there is also a life of mother, she has to keep.

The husband is out of the picture. She tried long ago to get him to understand. She didn't go into detail, but she said he was not wanting any part of it.

I do understand your opinions, and thank you for them. I am wanting all kinds of opinions, and yours are welcome. I think the more she has to read, the better she will be able to decide how to proceed.

 

[Quint]

As I am learning firsthand right now, this is a largely personalized problem. I have read of several "happily ever after" couples on this site where one partner was in the lifestyle; their mate gave them the freedom to satisfy this need elsewhere, and it all worked out for the best.

I tried this approach on Hunny. Didn't work so well.

I am extremely sympathetic with your friend. I'm not in nearly as drastic a situation as she is; Hunny is very sexually open and adventurous. This is just one area that is more game than life to him, and I'm growing out of that. Your friend's husband sounds dreadfully Puritan, and we aren't talking Dimmesdale. I don't think, based solely upon what you have said thus far, that there is any hope of sexual happiness in that couple. From there, she has to decide for herself how much of her happiness is derived from sexual satisfaction. That's not something I can help with.

I get the feeling that a man unwilling to dominate his wife to give her some pleasure in the bedroom would NOT be open to the idea of letting her play outside the marriage. If I'm wrong, terrific. But I don't think that telling her husband will help at all. I hate advising dishonesty, but she needs to think of her genuine needs first.

Introduce her to the forum if she's amenable, DVS, and let her see the world of BDSM. Let her read about what she could be experiencing, and let her decide for herself if this is what she has been craving. If it's worth it. Best of luck to her.

 

[Kuurspet]

A sense of ethics

My own personal belief is that lying has no place in a BDSM relationship. If she has talked to her husband, and he agrees that she can seek to fulfill this need elsewhere, great. I'm all for open relationships! But I would never counsel someone to betray their vows. If her marriage does not work, then seek to end it. But don't live a lie if you can possibly avoid it.

If she truly seeks submission, she can find that at home with any husband. There are 100's of ways to express a need to submit and serve that don't require a collar or cuffs. If she seeks kinky phsycial and sexual expression, then I think she needs to decide whether that expression is worth giving up a marriage she may (or may not) want.

I personally did not, and now as a couple we do not, play with someone who is being dishonest to a significant other, no matter how good the reasons are.

K

 

[artful]

Counseling *IS*the answer...

...like it or not. When a person doesn't have the information they want, and/or need,...and they can't bear to seek it out on their own, there is just NOT any room for debate.

Where she should go to get that counseling, is debatable. (JMHO)

 

[DVS]

Re: A sense of ethics

... play with someone who is being dishonest to a significant other, no matter how good the reasons are.K

I agree, if there is a loving situation, it isn't good to cheapen it with dishonesty. But, would you rather go without any sexual contact at all ( which is what she is doing), or would you try to venture out and find something elsewhere?

And, she has told me divorce isn't in the picture, at present. But, everything changes. Life is in a constant state of flux.

 

[Kuurspet]

Re: Re: A sense of ethics

I agree, if there is a loving situation, it isn't good to cheapen it with dishonesty. But, would you rather go without any sexual contact at all ( which is what she is doing), or would you try to venture out and find something elsewhere?

Dishonesty cheapens and damages me and my self-esteem as much as it does my partner or the relationship. But I admit I am sometimes over the edge on the whole honesty issue!

In my situation, I did go without sexual contact for many years, after trying to get my husband interested. When I found out there was something elsewhere out there living happy, fulfilled lives *and* incorporating BDSM, I told him I needed to seek happiness, and we separated and then divorced. It was hard on the kids at first, but I have never regretted it for a minute.

Your friend needs to find the balance that meets her ethical needs, but I hope she does not end up compromising those ethics for sexual excitement. IMO, it's not worth it.

K

 

[mskittykatt]

Re: Re: Re: A sense of ethics

Dishonesty cheapens and damages me and my self-esteem as much as it does my partner or the relationship. But I admit I am sometimes over the edge on the whole honesty issue!

In my situation, I did go without sexual contact for many years, after trying to get my husband interested. When I found out there was something elsewhere out there living happy, fulfilled lives *and* incorporating BDSM, I told him I needed to seek happiness, and we separated and then divorced. It was hard on the kids at first, but I have never regretted it for a minute.

Your friend needs to find the balance that meets her ethical needs, but I hope she does not end up compromising those ethics for sexual excitement. IMO, it's not worth it.

K

very well spoken Kuurspet!
...and even with the most clear of opinions and answers found here it will still be a deeply personal question that your friend has to work out for herself. she can look in the window at all that is available to help make a desision - but in the end she's got to decide *for herself*
it's a scarey lonely place to be, i hope she has other friends as supportive as you're trying to be waiting on the other side of this tough decision.

 

[Lancecastor]

Re: Re: A sense of ethics

(edited)
But, would you rather go without any sexual contact at all ( which is what she is doing), or would you try to venture out and find something elsewhere?

Marriage is about more than sex, DVS. (wot!!??)

A shared life with children....a family...generally supercedes sex as a priority when it comes down to it.

Goes with the gig, man.

All the more reason for your friend to hunker down and give her main gig an honest go.

Just a thought.

LC

 

[WillowPuss]

Hmmmm

This is such a personal issue that I am not sure that anyone can truly give your friend an answer.

As for the rape bit ... has she managed to speak this through fully with somebody? It would be best if it were her husband, but I can fully appreciated that may not be possible.
However, from personal experience, she need for her own sanity to talk the whole thing out with somebody who is willing to both listen and, more importantly, be non-judgemental.

If she finds she is unable to articulate her feelings on the subject, then maybe writing them out will help.

 

[Desdemona]

OK... I'll wade in here as a sub female. I lived that scenario for a long time myself. The lack of sex or the unwillingness to meet her specific needs may just be a symptom of far greater problems (you did mention that the marriage is shaky). I think couples counseling is the way to go and figure out their issues as a couple. Some people can resolve them; others can't.

Yes, some people seek to meet their sexual needs outside of the marriage. I did that myself (in addition to counseling) and it was quite educational. Those experiences ultimately helped me gather the courage to end my marriage. I don't, however, advocate this approach for anyone else. It is a very individual decision.

Whatever your friend does, I fear she has a hard journey ahead of her.

 

[DVS]

Re: Re: Re: A sense of ethics

Marriage is about more than sex, DVS. (wot!!??)

A shared life with children....a family...generally supercedes sex as a priority when it comes down to it.

Goes with the gig, man.

All the more reason for your friend to hunker down and give her main gig an honest go.

Just a thought.

LC

Quite literally, you are very correct. There is more to a marriage than sex. There is more to life than sex. But, she has been married to this man for a long, long time, and there is no longer a "marriage" involved.

The only connection she has with this man is kids, and his income. She is working on the latter. The former is something many people will sacrifice their lives to keep together.

Sanity for children is foremost in most mother's minds. The children would not be mentally damaged by a separation or divorce, but my friend feels it is best to keep the family together, while the kids are still growing.

The husband has been and is still potentially abusive, to get his way. He is a very controlling individual. Where some divorces would be rather quick and tidy, she is concerned this one would not be. So, as I said, a divorce is not out of the question, but it is not at all high on the list, either.

The family circle only encompasses her and the children. The father is not interested in much worth talking about, other than having is way and satisfaction, when he gets it. My friend has come to learn how to accomplish this, so it doesn't cause problems.

You may see some of this as grounds for divorce, no matter how much my friend is against it. But, she said she has her reasons, and I trust her to know what is best. After all, this is her life and family, and not anyone elses. All I am trying to do is get her other people's opinions, and thoughts, so she can then decide for herself what to do.
When you say my friend should 'hunker down and give her main gig an honest go', you must know she has been doing this for many years. Only now, after more than 20 years of this, does she finally feel there is something different out there.

She has 'paid her dues', if you ask me, and it entitled to a change. I have talked to her about her marriage and divorce, and she has told me she has reasons for her decisions. No matter how close you get to your friends, there are times when you have to take their word for something, when they say things like that. Her reasons are only her business, unless she wants to tell me more. So, I just suffice this to mean there won't be a divorce, in the legal sense, at least. But, I assure you, there was a mental divorce long ago.
I know many will still say she is making the wrong choice for the better of everybody concerned. But, you are only saying this because of what information I have put here, and how I have laid it out for you to read. So, your opinions could be my fault, and not anyone else's.

It is very difficult to express one's inner feelings to strangers, even if they do have good intentions for you. She is a very shy and conservative person, and that is why I offered to be the middle man for her. I told her she could be completely annonymous, but even that wasn't enough to get her to post this herself.

But, she sees all of these wonderful thoughts, and I do say they are helping her think things out. She is from an area where you don't easily venture out into some areas. Even I have come from the old school of thought, where you are told to suck it up and take what you have and make the best of it.

But, I don't feel this is always the way we should be, for mental sanity, and the person inside us, as a whole. If we stay in this school of thought, sometimes our hopes and dreams and expectations of future get dimmer and dimmer, and become less and less likely to ever happen. I for one, believe it is possible to have your cake and eat it too. At least, it is possible to give it a try.

This is why I mentioned all of this to my friend. I considered her attitude about life as being unhealthy, in a way. She has dreams that she doesn't see ever happening. She has some of the same feelings that I had, at one time. I was lucky to be able to follow through with mine and come out happy, on the other side. I feel she should have this same chance. We all should. This thread is just my way of helping.

Not everyone is going to agree. That is normal. We all have our opinions. But, I hope that with the many different people who visit this thread and offer their thoughts, it may help more people to not think their dreams are not attainable, but there is still light at the end of that tunnel.


SO, this is directed to any other submissives who would like to offer their help and guidance to my friend.

It is very difficult for a woman to begin this search. There are so many crazy people out there, it is necessary to have a plan of action. She doesn't know many 'like minded' friends, so I suggested she find a munch group where she can meet other submissives, for their guidance. It is always a good idea to gain information from someone who has been where you are and can help you by just telling their story.

*
How have you found your partner, be it a weekend thing, once in a while play partner, or maybe you did take it further and went through a divorce. Whatever the case, tell her your story of how you found your way.

**
How did you deal with the uncertainty of meeting strangers and communicating your wishes, without being continually used? I know there are SS&C ways of doing things, but precisely how did YOU do it?


Thanks to EVERYONE for posting, and please continue to give us your thoughts..

 

[Guest]

"It is very difficult for a woman to begin this search. There are so many crazy people out there, it is necessary to have a plan of action. She doesn't know many 'like minded' friends, so I suggested she find a munch group where she can meet other submissives, for their guidance. It is always a good idea to gain information from someone who has been where you are and can help you by just telling their story."
I met my first play partners through internet personals ads. I did the e-mail correspondence thing with them for a while and culled out the obvious jerks who started with...I am your new master, you will submit to me etc. I also rejected the guys who wanted a picture before getting to know me. Out of more than 50 replies, I actually met with 4 different men. I always had a safe call arranged.
*
How have you found your partner, be it a weekend thing, once in a while play partner, or maybe you did take it further and went through a divorce. Whatever the case, tell her your story of how you found your way.
My partners were once in a while partners. I experimented with several different partners and ultimately found that a D/s relationship is just that.... a relationship first and foremost. I was not satisfied with the once in a while play partners (in spite of some truly spectacular orgasms) and really couldn't develop the level of trust that I need to truly submit.

**
How did you deal with the uncertainty of meeting strangers and communicating your wishes, without being continually used? I know there are SS&C ways of doing things, but precisely how did YOU do it?

Unfortunately, I felt used most of the time with my first play partners. They responded to my physical needs but were really only in it for the sex; my emotional needs were not met. Currently, after play, there is talking and cuddling and nurturing. My Dom lets me know that he loves, respects and cherishes me. We discussed emotional needs long before we ever became sexual.

I hope this answers your questions. Des

 

[Desdemona]

oops. I posted as unregistered

Sharing a computer with someone else who posts on Lit sucks sometimes since I don't use the cookie feature now.

 

[DVS]

Hmmmm

This is such a personal issue that I am not sure that anyone can truly give your friend an answer.

As for the rape bit ... has she managed to speak this through fully with somebody? It would be best if it were her husband, but I can fully appreciated that may not be possible.
However, from personal experience, she need for her own sanity to talk the whole thing out with somebody who is willing to both listen and, more importantly, be non-judgemental.

As far as the rapes are concerned, she said they happened over 20 years ago. Although I am sure they are still significantly in her subconscious mind, she says they only make it more difficult for her to trust and make friends. And, with this being one of the first things she needs to do(meet new friends), it will be a hurdle for her, I am sure.

I was very shy, when I was younger, and I know that once you take that first step, the second is easier. I don't want to say that my being shy is anything close to the mental state of having been raped, but there is a slight parallel. And, I think anyone who knows me now would not associate being shy as an aspect of my personality.

I have told her it will take time, and only she can know if it will be possible for her to do this. Like any phobias we may have to deal with, it is on our own terms and at our own pace. Everybody is different, so she will have to make her own decisions, for herself.

Just talking to others will give different points of view on a subject. There is never anything wrong with honestly expressing your opinion. They are all potentially little words of wisdom.

 

[spankableBelle]

today must be...

...belle's insightful, thoughtful day...a few thought provoking threads have i replied to...hmmm...

anyway, being in a similiar situation as your friend, DVS, not exactly like hers, in some many respects similiar, my own opinion is that she learn about herself in whatever way is best and comfortable for her...it's not going to jive with most people's opinions of what she should do...get a divorce or live with it and keep trying even though the door is firmly shut in that direction and evidently in others as well...but she has a right, just like anyone, to do as she feels is best to test out the waters, learn about what she needs for her life and for her own personal intimate well-being...divorce is not always a easily come by as some say it is...and one should know themselves what they truly want and need before trotting down to the courthouse...however she has to do it...she should do it...maybe there will be guilt, maybe there will be fear, maybe there will be pain, maybe there will be heartache, and maybe there will be a dawning light somewhere in the middle of her search that beckons and gives her peace...

she's made a good start though, she has you for a friend and has confided in you...

i understand why some suggest counseling...i myself hold my own opinion on that...i've been through enough counseling to know that there's always going to be an answer that doesn't mix and mingle well with another...one will tell you to get out no matter what...one will tell you to stay no matter what...and one will tell you to stay for the sake of the family but to go out and get what you need to fulfill you because the brickwall you're beating your head against isn't going to do anything but continue to give you a headache...

tell her to read...read...read...and sooner or later, she'll start to understand what she needs and she'll open up and need to talk...and the best place for that, is with other submissives...

belle

 

[DVS]

Re: today must be...

...belle's insightful, thoughtful day...a few thought provoking threads have i replied to...hmmm...belle

spankableBelle, I am glad you chose this thread to reply to. And, I don't quite know what it is, but I think I am now in love with you, from afar.

I guess that could be because a lot of what you said in your reply, I have already told her, if not in so many words, of course. I agree completely about the counseling, but I know it could be very helpful, for some.

And, there is no set path someone can suggest she take, but I felt this thread may offer enough different and varied opinions that she could then have enough information to make a more informed choice.

I also agree that she should spend her time with other submissives. But, the problem with this is she doesn't know any (well she could and not even know it). So, that is one of the first tasks, at hand. To meet new friends and develope friendships with other women who can help guide her along.

tell her to read...read...read...and sooner or later, she'll start to understand what she needs and she'll open up and need to talk...and the best place for that, is with other submissives...

Thanks. You just did.

If you have any other thoughts, please feel free to offer them. If you ask me, you can't have too much information when making decisions about life and love.


Any other submissives have something to suggest? Even if I don't agree, I will still appreciate your offer to contribute.

Thanks, in advance, for continued posts.

 

[SexyChele]

Okay, wait. I'm seeing red flags all over the place with this one. Maybe I just don't have enough information, but somethings just aren't falling into place.

1. This woman was raped, granted a lot of years ago, but we don't know if she ever received any type of counseling for that. Rape is a crime of violence that can shatter a woman's trust. If this happened when she was 18 and she is now in her 40s, this can haunt her in a not so good way. She needs to deal with it. Many women go into rape counseling years, even decades, after the event to get help.

2. Her husband has been, and has the potential, to be abusive? Interesting. She wants to be submissive, you say. She suffered at least one rape. And she has an abusive husband. Not good. Seems to me like she is trying to act some stuff out here, not "find" anything.

3. The marriage is "dead" but she doesn't want to leave. She has her reasons, but "his income" was one of the things cited that she is "working on." In other words, if this woman were self-sufficient, she would probably dump the guy. I don't know about too many other folks, but I'm seeing "victim mentality" here.

Being a submissive sexually is not opening yourself for abuse. Nor is it to get over feelings of being raped. Nor is it to offset an abusive hubby. You might not think this is what she is doing. Granted. But an interesting note from those writing to the SRP forum is that most of the women who write to violent rape threads have been raped. It's one way they are thinking they are dealing with it.

If this woman is too shy to come onto a bulletin board, where she can remain anonymous, how in the world is she going to actually go to a munch group? That would be interesting. I'm somewhat outgoing, and the thought of joining a munch group is very intimidating to me.

Chances are, this woman will go the internet route. And I would say that with a past rape, abusive hubby, quite possibly an over-eagerness to "explore" will all amount to her making bad choices.

One thing I have learned since truly investigating this lifestyle is that if you don't have your head on straight and know exactly what it is you want, you will end up with assholes and jerks.

Your friend needs to talk to some one professionally. And if she doesn't feel comfortable with the first counselor, for heaven's sake, switch counselors! This is elemetary to me. She needs to get herself healthy first, then "explore".

I would also agree with the previous posters. If hubby is willing to let her "explore", then she might try going for it. However, if she can't tell him, we must keep in mind the fundamental basis of BDSM is trust. If she begins to "explore", and her play partner goes a little too far and she comes home with bruises and welts, how does she explain? If hubby finds out and divorces her, what does she do then? Too much can go wrong when you begin to lie, in my opinion.

But hey, it's her life. It's her choices. My advice to you would be to let her live her life and let her make her own choices. I say this, not to be argumentative, but because I've found myself in the position that you are in. And in all cases I lost the friendship when the friend "found" themselves. (which oftentimes landed them in the hospital)

 

[artful]

Re: oops. I posted as unregistered

Sharing a computer with someone else who posts on Lit sucks sometimes since I don't use the cookie feature now.

First of all,...Des,...it is SO wonderful to see you posting here. I hope your S/O decides to post here also. I know you both ONLINE only,...but I know you both WELL. Welcome to the BDSM forum.

Next,...THREAD TOPIC:

As I stated earlier,...counseling IS the answer.
Where to get it is debatable. More to the point,
it appears the woman is getting counseling, and not from a professional. I am not saying this is BAD, but if she WERE to take some action in satisfying her sexual desires OUTSIDE of marriage,
the hubby NOT approving it,(or even approving it initially), then changing his mind, and there be
extreme physical damage done, to one or more parties involved, think of the consequences.

Hell,...this is WAYYYY too volatile for any of us
to advise in any meaningful way, other than SEEK
COUNSELING. After she has been thoroughly counseled. Then SHE will have the information she needs in order to make an intelligent decision as to what choices she has to improve her lifestyle.

MAYBE,...just maybe,...she will see a way to take some steps in a direction that she will feel safe to pursue. I don't mean to sound cold-hearted, but sad to say,...some people will not take responsibility for their own life. They always want someone ELSE to make their decisions for them.

She may or may NOT be that type person,...I don't know, but her REAL problem doesn't appear to be BDSM,...it appears to be the marriage. No matter what you or anyone else says,..."marriage"
is "marriage". It's just that SOMETIMES,...it's "worthless".

 

[Desdemona]

Artful... great post and thanks for the welcome.