an essay about fanfiction

[Stella_Omega]

http://downtothelastbullet.tumblr.com/post/29097051054/tywinning-asked-you-2012-08-09-03-37-as-a

Most of the history of Western literature (and probably much of non-Western literature, but I can’t speak to that) is adapted or appropriated from something else. Homer wrote historyfic and Virgil wrote Homerfic and Dante wrote Virgilfic (where he makes himself a character and writes himself hanging out with Homer and Virgil and they’re like “OMG Dante you’re so cool.” He was the original Gary Stu). Milton wrote Bible fanfic, and everyone and their mom spent the Middle Ages writing King Arthur fanfic. In the sixteenth century you and another dude could translate the same Petrarchan sonnet and somehow have it count as two separate poems, and no one gave a fuck. Shakespeare doesn’t have a single original plot—although much of it would be more rightly termed RPF—and then John Fletcher and Mary Cowden Clarke and Gloria Naylor and Jane Smiley and Stephen Sondheim wrote Shakespeare fanfic. Guys like Pope and Dryden took old narratives and rewrote them to make fun of people they didn’t like, because the eighteenth century was basically high school. And Spenser! Don’t even get me started on Spenser.

So there.

All kidding aside, the rest of the essay is very much worth reading, and possibly-- discussing.

 

[emap]

Just to be that girl.

Nothing ever written was original, it's happened before and it will again.

Course it actually skipped one thing. Not really central to the blog but it rather goes what I put above, and sorta follows along with what he says later. There are only so many different things a human being can do. I mean really think about it for a second. What can a person do today? Now take it back fifty years and you know that list got a lot shorter.

Now that you are thinking about that, how much of what can be done today is actually different from fifty years ago? Think email, it's a letter that is delivered in milliseconds instead of days or weeks. Cell phone, it's a house phone that moves around with you. Google search on a computer or phone, which there really isn't that much difference anymore. That is the same as going to the library and spending a few hours researching.

I could go on but I won't since I probably lost ya'll anyway.

Oh almost forgot, I don't like fanfic, not because it has the same basic storyline as something else. I don't like it because the characters in the story are what set it apart from everything else. If you can't work your own characters I don't care if you have perfect sentence structure.

 

[PennLady]

Oh almost forgot, I don't like fanfic, not because it has the same basic storyline as something else. I don't like it because the characters in the story are what set it apart from everything else. If you can't work your own characters I don't care if you have perfect sentence structure.

In the past at least, I've had similar thoughts on fanfic. On the other hand, is the latest Star Wars or Star Trek or Firefly or Doctor Who novel really all that different in principle from Lawhead's King Arthur series from some years ago (that included Pendragon, Merlin and others)? Or Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon? Are those books any "less" because they used familiar characters from British mythology?

 

[Verdad]

I liked the article. Not just because I'm fine with fanfic but because it's right about bigger fish.

It understands how art works, it dispels naive notions of what constitutes originality, and undermines the mentality that would gladly trademark the verb 'to be'.

 

[Bramblethorn]

In the past at least, I've had similar thoughts on fanfic. On the other hand, is the latest Star Wars or Star Trek or Firefly or Doctor Who novel really all that different in principle from Lawhead's King Arthur series from some years ago (that included Pendragon, Merlin and others)? Or Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon? Are those books any "less" because they used familiar characters from British mythology?

And when authors aren't explicitly using somebody else's named characters, they're recycling archetypes or stealing from real life.

Using somebody else's character or setting certainly puts constraints on what you can do, but that's not necessarily a good thing. A lot of great creative works start with the artist deliberately accepting constraints, whether it's "Shakespearean sonnet form" or "only black-and-white" or "sculpture using only naturally-occurring rocks". Applying those constraints doesn't prevent the artist from being creative, it just channels that creativity in other directions.

I'm not a huge fanfic reader, but I've been known to inhale, and the stuff I like (apart from crackfic) tends to be the stuff that is true to the original material but finds something new to do with it. For instance, I read one story that took two minor and very two-dimensional characters (Vernon & Petunia Dursley) who are only used as antagonists/comic relief in the original, and explored the question: if Vernon is so thoroughly unattractive, why did Petunia marry him? And it provided quite a good answer to that question, without changing Vernon's character.

 

[estragon]

I've written fanfic, so I plead guilty to whatever the charge is. And I did it because I admired the creator of the characters whose stories I told, and made sure to get licensing to use those characters.

It's a cliché, but I confess I am a pygmy standing on the shoulders of a giant.

Maybe Ben Franklin put it best, when a popular preacher in 18th Century Philadelphia was found to have plagiarized a sermon, and his listeners deserted him: "I stuck by him, however, as I rather approv'd his giving us good sermons compos'd by others, than bad ones of his own manufacture, tho' the latter was the practice of our common teachers."

 

[TE999]

A well written essay, indeed. It's true that there are only seven core plots in all literature, it's what's constructed around them is what makes them interesting; primarily the characters. If one chooses to write about characters that are known in literature, IMO that's a homage rather than 'copying' them. It means they have a depth of personality deserving of another romance and/or adventure. There wouldn't be any sequels either.

 

[3113]

Let me ask you all this. Do you get upset if you learn some site has taken your stories and is making money off them? Money that doesn't go to you? Okay, you do. So, what if that site took all your stories, changed the names and places and made money? Still upset? What if they took your names, places and story and made up their own tale using those characters, places, etc. and made money off that--money you never saw? Go ahead and support fanfic all you want, but the fanfic out there--the Dr. Who stories and Star Trek and Star Wars and Harry Potter stories, only is allowed to exist so long as it doesn't make money. Try and publish and make money off any of those stories and lawyers will be knocking on your door.

Which is to say, yeah, none of it's original, everyone borrows, references, copies, gets inspired...yawn, duh, been there done that, tell me something new. And yeah, what is up for grabs is up for grabs. Mythology, folklore, fairytales, legends are up for grabs--there is no author or lawyer going to stop anyone, so who the fuck cares? And yeah, wow, someone might even write something brilliant and famous using such legends, mythology, folklore--whadda know? How did I not realize that? And, finally, what is nominally up for grabs so long as you don't make money on it is nominally up for grabs--that's almost all fanfic and it's only nominally up for grabs because trying to stop it is pretty much impossible.

And people have done this, will do this. Wow. We humans borrow and share and steal and reuse. Who'da thunk?

All true, but I promise you that if Terry Brooks had written a book with Gandalf and Aragorn rather than characters that looked exactly like them but had different name, if he'd written it up happen in Middle Earth, and those who'd hired him to plagiarize that idea and those characters had tried to publish it, they would have gotten buried under a ton of legal bricks. I'm sorry, but this tap dance the author's doing is just that, a tap dance. If I write up a book and it gains money and fame then I don't care if people can pointand say I took my inspiration from King Arthur--they can certainly do the same and make their money and fame that way, too. But I worked hard creating my take on King Arthur, and I don't want them using my hard work to make money for themselves.

Is there anything we really don't understand about this?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh almost forgot, I don't like fanfic, not because it has the same basic storyline as something else. I don't like it because the characters in the story are what set it apart from everything else. If you can't work your own characters I don't care if you have perfect sentence structure.

It's not about perfect sentence structure, it's about what else those characters might have done. That's what all of the Robin Hood and King Arthur writers did.

All true, but I promise you that if Terry Brooks had written a book with Gandalf and Aragorn rather than characters that looked exactly like them but had different name, if he'd written it up happen in Middle Earth, and those who'd hired him to plagiarize that idea and those characters had tried to publish it, they would have gotten buried under a ton of legal bricks.

1) Eragon.

2) Terry Brooks is a perfect example of the essayist's point.

3) Fanfiction qua fanfiction is famous for not being for profit, as you point out. Thousands of fanfiction writers get flack for that-- "why are you spending so much time on something you can't sell?" That's not why people write it. And that's why its unstoppable. You cannot stop people from wanting to know what else happened. You cannot stop people from sharing their thoughts on the matter, and if those thoughts are really well written-- that's not your problem either.

4) Fanfic is not an automatic result of publishing. If any author gets to the point where people are writing fanfic of their work-- That's when they know they've touched the hearts of their readers.

 

[PennLady]

Let me back up. I think we're talking about two different things although they may be the same in principle, or spring from the same source. I would define fanfic as the unauthorized stuff that people do online, ranging from the old Kirk/Spock slashfic to today's stuff about Harry Potter, etc. Some is no doubt good, some bad, and likely all of it is done without permission.

Then there is... licensed fanfic? By which I refer to the novels about the characters in Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, Doctor Who, and whatever else that are licensed by the people/companies that produce them. I have generally avoided these novels, and at first it was because my thoughts were: how good a writer can they be if they have to use someone else's characters and world? Now it's more a habit and lack of interest. But it doesn't mean that there aren't good novels within those series.

It just seems to me if you're going to criticize people for writing the further adventures of Harry Potter and his friends, or superheroes, or whatever, then you should also criticize those who write their takes on King Arthur, Robin Hood, Mulan, Johnny Appleseed, or whatever. And I'm not saying you should criticize.

I agree with Stella. When readers want more, then (hopefully) it's a flattering thing for the author. And you can't stop them, certainly not today with the internet and how easy it is to get things out there. I do not think people should be making money from unauthorized stuff, and I'd support authors who try to stop such things. If you have a copyright, you should protect it. But I can't get worked up (at least not yet) about stuff that is basically a tribute and is available for free. I know there's more to it than that, but that's my basic thought.

 

[Verdad]

Let me ask you all this. Do you get upset if you learn some site has taken your stories and is making money off them? Money that doesn't go to you? Okay, you do. So, what if that site took all your stories, changed the names and places and made money? Still upset? What if they took your names, places and story and made up their own tale using those characters, places, etc. and made money off that--money you never saw? Go ahead and support fanfic all you want, but the fanfic out there--the Dr. Who stories and Star Trek and Star Wars and Harry Potter stories, only is allowed to exist so long as it doesn't make money. Try and publish and make money off any of those stories and lawyers will be knocking on your door.

Which is to say, yeah, none of it's original, everyone borrows, references, copies, gets inspired...yawn, duh, been there done that, tell me something new. And yeah, what is up for grabs is up for grabs. Mythology, folklore, fairytales, legends are up for grabs--there is no author or lawyer going to stop anyone, so who the fuck cares? And yeah, wow, someone might even write something brilliant and famous using such legends, mythology, folklore--whadda know? How did I not realize that? And, finally, what is nominally up for grabs so long as you don't make money on it is nominally up for grabs--that's almost all fanfic and it's only nominally up for grabs because trying to stop it is pretty much impossible.

And people have done this, will do this. Wow. We humans borrow and share and steal and reuse. Who'da thunk?

All true, but I promise you that if Terry Brooks had written a book with Gandalf and Aragorn rather than characters that looked exactly like them but had different name, if he'd written it up happen in Middle Earth, and those who'd hired him to plagiarize that idea and those characters had tried to publish it, they would have gotten buried under a ton of legal bricks. I'm sorry, but this tap dance the author's doing is just that, a tap dance. If I write up a book and it gains money and fame then I don't care if people can pointand say I took my inspiration from King Arthur--they can certainly do the same and make their money and fame that way, too. But I worked hard creating my take on King Arthur, and I don't want them using my hard work to make money for themselves.

Is there anything we really don't understand about this?

Well, I don’t know what you’re incensed about?

There are two sides to the issue. Of course one wants writers to be compensated for their work. And of course no one defends outright theft (presenting someone else’s work as yours).

But the other side of the issue is that one doesn’t want copyright to be so draconic as to hinder human creativity and progress. Plagiarism and what constitutes it is a tricky question. So is the question of whether you’re stealing if you make a copy of a book you’ve bought and give it to someone else to read. And when it comes to fanfic, which is non-profit, I don’t even see a question.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But I worked hard creating my take on King Arthur, and I don't want them using my hard work to make money for themselves.

I totally missed that sentence.

I think it says everything, really. Probably more than you wanted it to.

 

[emap]

Star Wars at least every story that is written is read and approved of by Lucas. So it's not really fanfic, it's a cowrite thing because he makes sure everything fits in with his view of his characters and world. I don't call those fanfics, they are continuations of the story, or prestory depending on who the novel is about.

This is where it gets hard, a fanfic is someone taking a preexisting character completely and putting them in a new situation. On here that means getting laid. I can understand taking a famous person and gettign laid with them, I did that kinda already. I don't get say, Harry Potter getting laid stories. So not seeing the appeal there.

I already said everything has been done before, people included. Characters if you prefer. I mean really there are only so many different types of people, though your basic hero types never actually do. At least not that good of a person. Captain America for a very obvious one. Nobody is that much of well any sort of a good person that he is.

He is also a very good example of character making the difference. Besides what he does, he's Superman, but he's also more than Superman. Superman is all that's good in the world, but Captain America is more of what is good in the world. Partly that is because of when they came up with him. Partly it is because Marvel wanted to make a better Superman. Well that part came after the war but well you know what I mean.

Going back over characters though yes they are all more or less repeats. Any of the ones I use in my stories could probably be found in a Shakespeare tale. Maybe not some where it's just about getting laid...Well you know probably them too.

I can't beleive I'm going to say this, but let's look at fifty. Those started as a fanfic and it got popular. I don't know why, I have no idea why it was picked up to publish and not changed. Those books are in serious need of rewrite and editing. Yet they are selling like hotcakes. I tried reading them, got maybe three pages in and delete.

Totally the crap you line your birdcage with, I mean I'd rather read the paper than those. Here's the thing though, they were never actually fanfic. The two main characters share a name and where they are and that covers it. Still they make examples of the character fielding the story. I can only repeat what others have said because i never actually found any sex to read. Did try looking just to see if maybe but I gave up first.

They are two seriously fucked up people, but people kept reading the story to see what happens. This rather goes back to the hero character. Nobody is ever actually that good, they have moments but never fully. The characters in fifty are the opposite of them, they are so fucked up that no functioning person is that bad.

What I am saying is fanfic is the lazy approach. Take the character you know and alter them, make them your own and tell the story. People repeat, so everybody has a crazy uncle, the slutty cousin and so forth. That's all fine and good, make them your own and put them in something newish. Reuse Camelot all you want, it's a repeat of a repeat anyway. Make the characters your own, they are repeats anyway but make them your own twist.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

I'm sorry, but I don't see using a piece of mythology or a fairytale (let's remember how short and devoid of detail most of these original accounts are, shall we?) is in the same ballpark as using, say, Harry Potter characters, for which there are seven freaking books full of details!

Surely there's a continuum of borrowing, with inspiration on one end and fanfic on the other, and with a very large, gray area in the middle? Because in my mind, basing a novel around, say, a paragraph-long mythological story is at one end, and having Hermione and Draco get it on is at the other end, and they are in no way the same thing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've read Harry Potter fanfic that made me cry. I wished that Rowling could write half as well as those authors, taken her characters on those journeys, worked out the ramifications of her world that deeply. I've read fan fiction that colored the characters in such rich bright hues that my enjoyment of the original material was much greater. I've read Twilight fanfic that was tolerable, unlike those books were for me.

Fanfiction is not "laziness." Really it isn't. It's a different aspect of creative work. It's like a painter in oils calling a watercolorist "lazy." Or a Chevy driver belittling a Ford driver-- or something like that.

 

[3113]

t just seems to me if you're going to criticize people for writing the further adventures of Harry Potter and his friends, or superheroes, or whatever, then you should also criticize those who write their takes on King Arthur, Robin Hood, Mulan, Johnny Appleseed, or whatever. And I'm not saying you should criticize.

I kind of see this as the difference between a public pool, where anyone can jump in at any time, and a private pool in a backyard. Your neighbor may invite you over to swim, but unless your neighbor then says, "Come over any time," you're not going to go over again without an invite, are you?

Authorless material (sic) and/or material declared public and or licensed seems to me to be different from authored material which the author may or may not want people swimming in without their permission.

The difference, ultimately, is that my story with my characters are also my reputation. My work, my sweat, my effort, my research. I have plans for these characters. I know what I want to happen to them. And I don't see why I should be happy that other people are doing things to them that I don't want done--making them, on the page, think or say or do things I'd never have them do, and are possibly all wrong for them. How does this compare to King Arthur who anyone can do anything to, there is no one whose reputation, income, fame, future Arthurian tales, etc. will be harmed by it?

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

What I am saying is fanfic is the lazy approach. Take the character you know and alter them, make them your own and tell the story. People repeat, so everybody has a crazy uncle, the slutty cousin and so forth. That's all fine and good, make them your own and put them in something newish. Reuse Camelot all you want, it's a repeat of a repeat anyway. Make the characters your own, they are repeats anyway but make them your own twist.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I'll add this:

Every time I post about parallel novels--like Wicked, or Wide Sargasso Sea, or Mary Reilly--Stella jumps in and says they are just socially-accepted fanfic. Not saying I agree or disagree, but do you? And if so, do you think that something like Wicked or WSS is the lazy approach?

(I hated Mary Reilly, so I won't go there).

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm sorry, but I don't see using a piece of mythology or a fairytale (let's remember how short and devoid of detail most of these original accounts are, shall we?) is in the same ballpark as using, say, Harry Potter characters, for which there are seven freaking books full of details!

Actually there are SO MANY details missing from the books. All of them could be worth someone writing and filling in.

Surely there's a continuum of borrowing, with inspiration on one end and fanfic on the other, and with a very large, gray area in the middle? Because in my mind, basing a novel around, say, a paragraph-long mythological story is at one end, and having Hermione and Draco get it on is at the other end, and they are in no way the same thing.

Why not?

 

[TimothyM]

this is an interesting thread

what about fanfiction which does scenes that the original author did not put in his or her books. So if the characters in the books had sex, but it was not described for various reasons. E.g. that the book was for a Young Adult audience or the publishers did not condone actual sex descriptions or the author just did not want to write those scenes.

Would it then be more acceptable for a fanfiction writer to write those scenes here at Lit or other places? I mean more acceptable than using characters that had never met or were totally unlikely to have sex.

Or is it wrong no matter what, or only if the author has said he or she does not accept or like fanfiction? And I'm only thinking of the non-profit kind here.

 

[topace]

Finally a good point about what really got me started writing - fan-fiction!

You can't say I'm a minor writer when I have over 100K words published for free! All I get for my hard work is reviews and ratings - that's it. And when I'm corresponding with fellow writers, I make some new friends.

Fan-fiction allows a person to explore what if scenarios and share what they think could of happened with others.

There is Star Wars fan-fiction out there, just that people don't make money off of it - and Lucas never has to review those ones before they are published.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Let me back up. I think we're talking about two different things although they may be the same in principle, or spring from the same source. I would define fanfic as the unauthorized stuff that people do online, ranging from the old Kirk/Spock slashfic to today's stuff about Harry Potter, etc. Some is no doubt good, some bad, and likely all of it is done without permission.

Then there is... licensed fanfic? By which I refer to the novels about the characters in Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, Doctor Who, and whatever else that are licensed by the people/companies that produce them. I have generally avoided these novels, and at first it was because my thoughts were: how good a writer can they be if they have to use someone else's characters and world? Now it's more a habit and lack of interest. But it doesn't mean that there aren't good novels within those series.

It just seems to me if you're going to criticize people for writing the further adventures of Harry Potter and his friends, or superheroes, or whatever, then you should also criticize those who write their takes on King Arthur, Robin Hood, Mulan, Johnny Appleseed, or whatever. And I'm not saying you should criticize.

I agree with Stella. When readers want more, then (hopefully) it's a flattering thing for the author. And you can't stop them, certainly not today with the internet and how easy it is to get things out there. I do not think people should be making money from unauthorized stuff, and I'd support authors who try to stop such things. If you have a copyright, you should protect it. But I can't get worked up (at least not yet) about stuff that is basically a tribute and is available for free. I know there's more to it than that, but that's my basic thought.

I don't know about Star Trek, Firefly or Dr. Who, but the Star Wars novels are all tightly controlled by Lucas Licensing. Beginning in 1991 with Timothy Zahn's excellent Heir to the Empire trilogy, Lucas employed various authors to expand the Star Wars storyline into a coherent, seamless continuity. All of the subsequent novels, video games, and TV shows are parts of a unified whole. The authors are not free to spin the story in any direction; rather, the partnership with LucasArts allows the novelists pen a story under the direction of the original creator of the characters and settings.

My point is, these novels can in no way be labeled fanfic. Rather, they more closely resemble a Dale Chihuly glass piece that was entirely produced by another artist in his studio, or a gown with a Ralph Lauren tag that was actually designed by an up and coming designer in his company. (Andy Warhol also had dozens of artists working under his direction). The only difference is the author's name goes on the cover of the book, but the inspiration comes from the top.

 

[Stella_Omega]

what about fanfiction which does scenes that the original author did not put in his or her books. So if the characters in the books had sex, but it was not described for various reasons. E.g. that the book was for a Young Adult audience or the publishers did not condone actual sex descriptions or the author just did not want to write those scenes.

Would it then be more acceptable for a fanfiction writer to write those scenes here at Lit or other places? I mean more acceptable than using characters that had never met or were totally unlikely to have sex.

Or is it wrong no matter what, or only if the author has said he or she does not accept or like fanfiction? And I'm only thinking of the non-profit kind here.

You can always post fanfiction to fanfiction communities, if lit doesn't accept it. Google for the name of your book and "fanfic" and see what's around.

 

[topace]

I don't know about Star Trek, Firefly or Dr. Who, but the Star Wars novels are all tightly controlled by Lucas Licensing. Beginning in 1991 with Timothy Zahn's excellent Heir to the Empire trilogy, Lucas employed various authors to expand the Star Wars storyline into a coherent, seamless continuity. All of the subsequent novels, video games, and TV shows are parts of a unified whole. The authors are not free to spin the story in any direction; rather, the partnership with LucasArts allows the novelists pen a story under the direction of the original creator of the characters and settings.

My point is, these novels can in no way be labeled fanfic. Rather, they more closely resemble a Dale Chihuly glass piece that was entirely produced by another artist in his studio, or a gown with a Ralph Lauren tag that was actually designed by an up and coming designer in his company. (Andy Warhol also had dozens of artists working under his direction). The only difference is the author's name goes on the cover of the book, but the inspiration comes from the top.

True enough.

But there is free stories out there that Lucas Licensing doesn't care about because they are free. Those are fan-fiction (and there's a very good selection of them at FF.Net!).

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Actually there are SO MANY details missing from the books. All of them could be worth someone writing and filling in. Why not?

I realize there are details missing, and I never said they weren't worth filling in. Wicked and especially Wide Sargasso Sea are all about filling in characters who are overlooked in the original texts, and I've made little secret of how much I like each book.

But I don't consider taking well-established characters--characters like Hermione, for whom most people who read all seven books could provide a rough sketch of--the same as taking, say, Baba Yaga--who appears in numerous mythological stories, but who is given different personalities and roles in them--and writing a story about her.

(Note: JKR may have been a bad example to use, since I don't think her characters are particularly well-developed, but hopefully you catch my drift here.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

I recently read a wonderful story featuring Chewbacca and two prostitutes.

And I really do mean wonderful-- had plot, character arc, good sex.