An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

[sack]

Old Girl Winter
by PatCarrington

It’s here too late again, the bride’s
lace veil. Gowned in milky roses, she
spreads her train of diamond doves
and primps. Unthinking,
busy being white.

Tonight she just appeared.
Curtain wide, we caught her cold
in her dressing room. Dusk
always finds a matron waiting
to be touched and taken, but

they only script sad ceremony
on chilly April nights. When
morning comes the boot-heeled
rain of everyman leaves her pure
dress in disarray, her maids’ tiaras
crying in the trees, so little left
of what was her.

Far from autumn’s altar, no one
but the sun willing to kiss her
in daylight, her name the same.

Young spring seduces
her groom green


One of the obvious pleasures of this poem is the metaphor of the season of winter being compared to a person. It could have been deadly corny in the wrong hands, but Carrington carries it off quite well. I particularly like the first paragraph, which sets the stage immediately: "It's here too late again, the bride's lacy veil..." Yes, much about winter involves the color white, and Carrington alludes to this by inserting the statement "Busy being white." Because the length of the sentences vary widely, adding more lines may have improved the readability of the poem. Here is one alternate possibility for the first section:

It's here too late again
The brides lace veil

Gowned in milky roses
she spreads her train of diamond doves

and primps

unthinking
Busy being white


That makes the poem much easier to read aloud and lends a certain drama to it that was absent when the words were bunched together.


The second paragraph, which leads on to the third has some metaphors which are less clear to me. "We caught her cold in her dressing room" Well, winter would have to be cold, why do we have to catch her being cold, which is what she would naturally be anyway. Also, the "dressing room" implies the beginning of winter, but in the first paragraph we are told the "brides' lace veil is late again." Is winter arriving early or late? It can't do both. Another awkward sentence is "the boot heeled rain of everyman" Rain cannot be "boot-heeled", yet everyman could wear boots with heels. (or is it supposed to be every man?) Moreover, rain can gradually melt snow, which is presumably what is alluded to; but boots with heels would make impressions in the snow, which I assume is the "pure dress in disarray". There just are too many words here, and the sentences run from one line to the next, making readability difficult. Again, by way of illustration, here is one possible redistribution:

Tonight
she just appeared

Curtain wide
We caught her cold
in her dressing room

Dusk

always finds
a matron

Waiting
to be touched

and taken

But

They only script
sad ceremony

On chilly April nights

When morning comes
The footprints of rain

Leaves her pure dress
In disarray

Her maids' tiaras
crying in the trees

So little left
of what was

her


By replacing "boot-heeled" with "footprints", the poem appears clearer, at least to me.


In the next paragraph, the words "in daylight" are redundant, because the sun doesn't shine at night. Thus, by way of slight redistribution:

Far from Autumn's Altar
No one but the sun
willing to kiss her

Her name the same



And in the last paragraph, it is rather unusual to refer to the seasons in terms of age. One wouldn't use "old summer" for example. So, two other possibilities to replace "young" might be:

Early Spring seduces
Her groom
green

or, if the age association is retained:

Youthful Spring
seduces
Her groom
green


I didn't vote for this poem because in its original form it did not read aloud well, the third paragraph being essentially one long sentence. My redistributions may make the poem too choppy for some, but I think the marvelous imagery is to be savored, which could be accomplished by using shorter lines. I hope to hear from Mr. Carrington regarding his explanation of some of these interesting metaphors. One can't certainly "catch everything" in a poem, and I'm sure there are some aspects that were "hitting me in the face" yet I didn't notice them.

Thanks for sharing this poem with Literotica. Pat. What did you get with your gift certificate?


Sack

 

[twelveoone]

I certainly am not Pat's greatest fan, that being said; Sack, you have a long way to go to reach his expertise, his mastery, he may be one of the best to ever grace this place. I chose the word "grace" carefully. Even if Pat was a lesser, (say 1201), I would strongly object to any attempt at re-writting someone else's work. One should always question why something is written the way it is; that serves two purposes, the author makes it clear to himself he has done the right thing, and the questioner may learn something.

We all can learn more by listening to others.

 

[sack]

I think we are on the same page here...

I am questioning certain things about this poem, in an effort to understand what the poet was aiming for in certain sections. In a few places I suggested some other possible word choices, and illustrated how the poem would look like with those changes. But mostly I tried to show how a different formatting system would have effected the readability of the poem. As I said toward the end, my approach may be the other extreme, and too choppy. Yes, I agree we can all learn by listening to each other...were you open minded enough to listen to me here?

Sack

 

[twelveoone]

Re: I think we are on the same page here...

I am questioning certain things about this poem, in an effort to understand what the poet was aiming for in certain sections. In a few places I suggested some other possible word choices, and illustrated how the poem would look like with those changes. But mostly I tried to show how a different formatting system would have effected the readability of the poem. As I said toward the end, my approach may be the other extreme, and too choppy. Yes, I agree we can all learn by listening to each other...were you open minded enough to listen to me here?

Sack

of course, my mind is so open it leaks
I am open about my prejudices, I find it presumptuous to change another's work.
if this was asked as a question, with Pat's permission it would be one thing Pat choses his words very carefully, whatever he writes, it sings. Sometimes I don't like the tune, but it sings. His posting is missed from one on the other side

 

[tarablackwood22]

Old Girl Winter
by PatCarrington

It’s here too late again, the bride’s
lace veil. Gowned in milky roses, she
spreads her train of diamond doves
and primps. Unthinking,
busy being white.

Tonight she just appeared.
Curtain wide, we caught her cold
in her dressing room. Dusk
always finds a matron waiting
to be touched and taken, but

they only script sad ceremony
on chilly April nights. When
morning comes the boot-heeled
rain of everyman leaves her pure
dress in disarray, her maids’ tiaras
crying in the trees, so little left
of what was her.

Far from autumn’s altar, no one
but the sun willing to kiss her
in daylight, her name the same.

Young spring seduces
her groom green


One of the obvious pleasures of this poem is the metaphor of the season of winter being compared to a person. It could have been deadly corny in the wrong hands, but Carrington carries it off quite well. I particularly like the first paragraph, which sets the stage immediately: "It's here too late again, the bride's lacy veil..." Yes, much about winter involves the color white, and Carrington alludes to this by inserting the statement "Busy being white." Because the length of the sentences vary widely, adding more lines may have improved the readability of the poem. Here is one alternate possibility for the first section:

It's here too late again
The brides lace veil

Gowned in milky roses
she spreads her train of diamond doves

and primps

unthinking
Busy being white


That makes the poem much easier to read aloud and lends a certain drama to it that was absent when the words were bunched together.


The second paragraph, which leads on to the third has some metaphors which are less clear to me. "We caught her cold in her dressing room" Well, winter would have to be cold, why do we have to catch her being cold, which is what she would naturally be anyway. Also, the "dressing room" implies the beginning of winter, but in the first paragraph we are told the "brides' lace veil is late again." Is winter arriving early or late? It can't do both. Another awkward sentence is "the boot heeled rain of everyman" Rain cannot be "boot-heeled", yet everyman could wear boots with heels. (or is it supposed to be every man?) Moreover, rain can gradually melt snow, which is presumably what is alluded to; but boots with heels would make impressions in the snow, which I assume is the "pure dress in disarray". There just are too many words here, and the sentences run from one line to the next, making readability difficult. Again, by way of illustration, here is one possible redistribution:

Tonight
she just appeared

Curtain wide
We caught her cold
in her dressing room

Dusk

always finds
a matron

Waiting
to be touched

and taken

But

They only script
sad ceremony

On chilly April nights

When morning comes
The footprints of rain

Leaves her pure dress
In disarray

Her maids' tiaras
crying in the trees

So little left
of what was

her


By replacing "boot-heeled" with "footprints", the poem appears clearer, at least to me.


In the next paragraph, the words "in daylight" are redundant, because the sun doesn't shine at night. Thus, by way of slight redistribution:

Far from Autumn's Altar
No one but the sun
willing to kiss her

Her name the same



And in the last paragraph, it is rather unusual to refer to the seasons in terms of age. One wouldn't use "old summer" for example. So, two other possibilities to replace "young" might be:

Early Spring seduces
Her groom
green

or, if the age association is retained:

Youthful Spring
seduces
Her groom
green


I didn't vote for this poem because in its original form it did not read aloud well, the third paragraph being essentially one long sentence. My redistributions may make the poem too choppy for some, but I think the marvelous imagery is to be savored, which could be accomplished by using shorter lines. I hope to hear from Mr. Carrington regarding his explanation of some of these interesting metaphors. One can't certainly "catch everything" in a poem, and I'm sure there are some aspects that were "hitting me in the face" yet I didn't notice them.

Thanks for sharing this poem with Literotica. Pat. What did you get with your gift certificate?


Sack

Are you kidding me? You just insist on smelling up my days, don’t you, big boy.

Haven’t you ever been taught to knock before you enter a house? There are places in this world where it is legal to kill someone for entering uninvited.

Didn’t it cross your mind that rewriting someone else’s work might be a bit presumptuous, especially with your feeble skills, or was that not taught in the barn where you were bred?

And I’ll have you know that there are now orange juice stains on my new white blouse. Reading your critique, my mouth insisted I expel all contents. You’ll get the cleaning bill.

All righty. Since, most certainly, no one sane will give this rudeness of yours much thought, and I’m nuts, here ya go, Einstein. Let’s share a straight jacket for a few minutes.

My take on the poem would be just a wee bit different than yours, sack.

But I’m not giving it to you. Anyone who asks the questions you ask is not ready to understand the answers.

And once again (and I am assuming you did not ask Pat his permission before you chose to subject his poem to your infantile analysis) you show you know even less about manners than you do about poetry.

If I were Pat, after watching you take his verse and destroy it by chopping it into random shards, proving you have no understanding or even a kindergarten grasp of the simplest concepts of poetry, of metaphor, of flow, of rhythm, of line-breaking, or of basic grade school capitalization and grammar, I would be horrified, or more likely, hysterical.

The total tonnage of what you do not know about poetics, and about proper manners and behavior, and about community spirit, could sink the two Titanics.

Having him explain his methods to you would be like trying to teach a corpse to sprint.

And good luck getting him to do it for you. You’d have a better chance convincing pigs to set the table for a pork roast.

In my opinion.

 

[sack]

This is essentially one big question....

and I encourage the author's responses. As to the "permission" issue, you may have noted on the "1st monthy contest final results thread" another individual completely buried my poem "A Squirrel Died", of course without permission. That demolishing doesn't bother me, as it bespeaks a great deal about the individual involved, but as far as I know, anyone can comment/make suggestions/criticise a particular poem (just read some of the Public Comments!!) without permission. Did I miss something?


Sack

 

[sack]

speaking of questions....

If I were Pat, watching you take his verse and destroy it by chopping it into random shards, proving you have no understanding or even a kindergarten grasp of the simplest concepts of poetry, of metaphor, of flow, of rhythm, of line-breaking, or of basic grade school capitalization and grammar, I would be horrified, or more likely, hysterical.




Tara, just curious, where are you going to display your "Miss Congeniality 2005" award?

Sack

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

Are you kidding me? You just insist on smelling up my days, don’t you, big boy.

Haven’t you ever been taught to knock before you enter a house? There are places in this world where it is legal to kill someone for entering uninvited.

Didn’t it cross your mind that rewriting someone else’s work might be a bit presumptuous, especially with your feeble skills, or was that not taught in the barn where you were bred?

And I’ll have you know that there are now orange juice stains on my new white blouse. Reading your critique, my mouth insisted I expel all contents. You’ll get the cleaning bill.

All righty. Since, most certainly, no one sane will give this rudeness of yours much thought, and I’m nuts, here ya go, Einstein. Let’s share a straight jacket for a few minutes.

My take on the poem would be just a wee bit different than yours, sack.

But I’m not giving it to you. Anyone who asks the questions you ask is not ready to understand the answers.

And once again (and I am assuming you did not ask Pat his permission before you chose to subject his poem to your infantile analysis) you show you know even less about manners than you do about poetry.

If I were Pat, after watching you take his verse and destroy it by chopping it into random shards, proving you have no understanding or even a kindergarten grasp of the simplest concepts of poetry, of metaphor, of flow, of rhythm, of line-breaking, or of basic grade school capitalization and grammar, I would be horrified, or more likely, hysterical.

The total tonnage of what you do not know about poetics, and about proper manners and behavior, and about community spirit, could sink the two Titanics.

Having him explain his methods to you would be like trying to teach a corpse to sprint.

And good luck getting him to do it for you. You’d have a better chance convincing pigs to set the table for a pork roast.

In my opinion.

you forgot the
seems to be the current thing.
My god, the woman of fire is back!
You seem to have trouble mincing words, don't you Tara?
I would gladly buy you a new blouse...for the price of a few more appearances.
I also may steal the pigs and the pork roast.
Sorry, getting off subject.
Sack, for what you aspire too, you would do well to emulate Pat, beg the master's forgiveness.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: This is essentially one big question....

and I encourage the author's responses. As to the "permission" issue, you may have noted on the "1st monthy contest final results thread" another individual completely buried my poem "A Squirrel Died", of course without permission. That demolishing doesn't bother me, as it bespeaks a great deal about the individual involved, but as far as I know, anyone can comment/make suggestions/criticise a particular poem (just read some of the Public Comments!!) without permission. Did I miss something?


Sack

yes in public comments( notice Pat pulled his stuff), not in threads.
edit of bad punctuation

 

[WickedEve]

Perhaps, playing around with Pat's poem will help you learn something. It's always a good idea to study the words of a poet who is more advanced in his skills than you are.

It's here too late again
The brides lace veil

Gowned in milky roses
she spreads her train of diamond doves

and primps

unthinking
Busy being white

Above is your first suggested revision. Once you have spent more time reading poetry and understanding it better, you will realize that your revision has taken away so much from this poem.

Pat's line breaks work. Your line breaks give it a choppy read and appear to be the way a novice poet would present it. Also, take time to study which words Pat chose to place on each line.

 

[PatCarrington]

What did you get with your gift certificate?


Sack

i lost it in a poker game.

son-of-a-bitch hit an inside straight.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Please note the title of the Forum: Poetry Feedback & Discussion.

All poetry may be discussed, any feedback may be offered to and by anyone, whether it has been requested or not.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

i lost it in a poker game.

son-of-a-bitch hit an inside straight.

Hate when that happens...
Does this posting imply consent? If so I withdraw half of my objections...but I reserve the right to be fully objectionable at some unnamed, unspecified date...at my whim.

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

i lost it in a poker game.

son-of-a-bitch hit an inside straight.

Good to see you're not taking this discussion as dead serious as some.

 

[PatCarrington]

Re: Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

Hate when that happens...
Does this posting imply consent? If so I withdraw half of my objections...but I reserve the right to be fully objectionable at some unnamed, unspecified date...at my whim.

it implies consent to a discussion of my poetry on this board, anywhere, anytime,

but not the manner in which it was done.

 

[SeattleRain]

why not make it art!

I think it might be a better poem if he made the lines LOOK like a bride by centering it and hitting the return at just the right place.... it would be soooooo pretty!


Or maybe he could just make it into snowflakes.

I wish I knew how to center then I could really do this right!



Old Girl Winter
by PatCarrington




*It’s * * here *


* too * late *






* again, the *



* * bride’s




~~~~lace veil.~~~~~

~.~.~

~.~


~.

.

....... Gowned * in *



milky roses,









* she spreads * her




* train * of *




<><> <> diamond <><><>



*


* doves *

*


* and primps. *


*


* *







you are a gentleman, Mister Carrington,
but I am certainly no lady.
I am restraining myself from bitch slapping
someone who should know better.

 

[PatCarrington]

Re: why not make it art!

I think it might be a better poem if he made the lines LOOK like a bride by centering it and hitting the return at just the right place.... it would be soooooo pretty!


Or maybe he could just make it into snowflakes.

I wish I knew how to center then I could really do this right!



Old Girl Winter
by PatCarrington




*It’s * * here *


* too * late *






* again, the *



* * bride’s




~~~~lace veil.~~~~~

~.~.~

~.~


~.

.

....... Gowned * in *



milky roses,









* she spreads * her




* train * of *




<><> <> diamond <><><>



*


* doves *

*


* and primps. *


*


* *







you are a gentleman, Mister Carrington,
but I am certainly no lady.
I am restraining myself from bitch slapping
someone who should know better.

i like it.

it gives the poem a certain i-wish-i-was-there feeling.

......you can bitch slap me if you want. screw restraint

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

it implies consent to a discussion of my poetry on this board, anywhere, anytime,

but not the manner in which it was done.

OK in that case I liked it alot. Although, I must admit SeattleRain, may have improved it, a little.

I object, strongly, to anyone pulling up something without permission.

Comment section, comments on, fair game, you constented. You pulled your stuff, entered a contest, consent is implied only for that purpose.

Despite my negative views on current IP law, I believe certain standards of ethics should be followed, consent should be obtained as a courtesy at least for the living.

Better luck at cards, you mind me asking, why you pulled your work?

 

[PatCarrington]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

OK in that case I liked it alot. Although, I must admit SeattleRain, may have improved it, a little.

I object, strongly, to anyone pulling up something without permission.

Comment section, comments on, fair game, you constented. You pulled your stuff, entered a contest, consent is implied only for that purpose.

Despite my negative views on current IP law, I believe certain standards of ethics should be followed, consent should be obtained as a courtesy at least for the living.

Better luck at cards, you mind me asking, why you pulled your work?

i don't mind at all.

nearly every poem i had posted here has been submitted to a poetry journal for consideration, most of them multiply. i have received a lot of acceptances.

they demand exclusivity when they print, and i am a dysfuctional record-keeper. it was too much for me to track and remember what went where, who took what, and what was posted here.

i pulled them to simplify my housekeeping.

i should give up poker, and take up scrabble.

 

[twelveoone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

i don't mind at all.

nearly every poem i had posted here has been submitted to a poetry journal for consideration, most of them multiply. i have received a lot of acceptances.

they demand exclusivity when they print, and i am a dysfuctional record-keeper. it was too much for me to track and remember what went where, who took what, and what was posted here.

i pulled them to simplify my housekeeping.

i should give up poker, and take up scrabble.

a.I 'm not surprised, and good luck, wish you great success
b&c. I knew there was something I liked about you
d. I can't play scrapble without a spill chucker

 

[BooMerengue]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: An analysis of Pat Carrington's Winning Poem....

a.I 'm not surprised, and good luck, wish you great success
b&c. I knew there was something I liked about you
d. I can't play scrapble without a spill chucker

Can you play Literati?

 

[sack]

a serious reply to Tara....

If I were Pat, after watching you take his verse and destroy it by chopping it into random shards, proving you have no understanding or even a kindergarten grasp of the simplest concepts of poetry, of metaphor, of flow, of rhythm, of line-breaking, or of basic grade school capitalization and grammar, I would be horrified, or more likely, hysterical.


Well, there is something to be said for giving someone a laugh!!
To be serious for a moment, I agree with you about the "shards" (not RANDOM shards though, I followed the order of the poem) and have said on two previous occasions my suggestions made the poem too choppy. But, what you seem to have missed is that making the lines shorter forces the reader to slow down, to really think about the imagery, to savor every word, as it were. The original presentation of the poem makes it a very fast read, and that's a shame. There is simply too much going on here to justify writing long sentences that spill over several lines.

Any intelligent person reading this would realize I'm on Pat's side, and trying to show even more individuals the poem's insights. That is best done by redistibuting it into smaller sections which can be analyzed in bite-sized chunks. You seem to be obsessed with the word "presumptuous", but that would only apply if I presented this as the only way to view the poem. I'm offering another viewpoint, a potential new way to view Pat's words, and ultimately a different reading experience. (Seattle Rain did this very well with imagery!). I feel it is the strength of this poem that it works in various formats!

I also suspect that under all the sarcastic blather you are a kind, sensitive person, and it is that person who I am speaking to here. You seem to have gotten the wrong "take" on me which is causing you needless misery. If you look through my posts, nowhere does it say I am a master poet, or an Einstein. But I do know how to read (on a good day!) and that is all I need to know to comment on line breaks, long sentences, etc. Yes, some of the metaphors are confusing to me, and I acknowleged immediately that it is very likely I missed something. I really don't know how I can be any more objective, and I did try to give examples for each of my points, whether you agree with them or not.

As for Pat answering any of my questions, my hope would be others might find his responses quite valuable as well. And it's perfectly OK if you don't want to share your views on this poem with me, but again...others in the forum may be interested!


Sack

 

[foehn]

most cogent comment award...

Please note the title of the Forum: Poetry Feedback & Discussion.

All poetry may be discussed, any feedback may be offered to and by anyone, whether it has been requested or not.

This short reminder sums it up, I think. By posting anything at all here, I sign-off on being eligible for alligator feeding frenzies, deletions, edits or removals of posts by moderators, or what have you.

I think the poems/stories themselves, once published, are somewhat sacrosanct as written, falling under the protection of copyright law.

I do think it's a bit crass to show how something might be re-written to please a particular reader or "class" of readers. But I think it's downright rude to assume that the possibly inadvertent crassness was intended to be a gross insult.

All of this confuses me almost as much as mud-wrestling.

Which, quite possibly, is normative, for me.