An Act of Asymmetric Warfare Waged Against Us.

[neonlyte]

The suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, amount to acts of war, the US military says.

The camp commander said the two Saudis and a Yemeni were "committed" and had killed themselves in "an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us".

BBC Report

Can anyone begin to explain this statement?

 

[rgraham666]

The suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, amount to acts of war, the US military says.

The camp commander said the two Saudis and a Yemeni were "committed" and had killed themselves in "an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us".

BBC Report

Can anyone begin to explain this statement?

Translated. "How dare they do this! Place themselves beyond our reach. Do something without our consent. Make a statement that we can't refute, obfuscate or spin.

Fucking terrorists."

You're welcome.

 

[Antfarmer77]

Can anyone begin to explain this statement?
Suicide bombers ( sans bombs) perhaps?

 

[neonlyte]

Can anyone begin to explain this statement?
Suicide bombers ( sans bombs) perhaps?

I'm so pleased you find it amusing.

 

[duddle146]

Did they really kill themselves?

Translated. "How dare they do this! Place themselves beyond our reach. Do something without our consent. Make a statement that we can't refute, obfuscate or spin.

Fucking terrorists."

You're welcome.

Could we leave open the possibility that they could have been black opted because they knew too much.

 

[oggbashan]

Their deaths will embarrass the US and publicises the indefinite detention of those at Guantanamo Bay held without charge, nor access to legal representation, nor any prospect of release through due process.

Guantanamo Bay is already a significant problem for many of the US's allies. How can imprisonment of people for unspecified offences for an indefinite time be justified when if they were held in the US they would have significant legal remedies?

The suicides will inflame the US's enemies to regard the dead as martyrs to 'the cause' whatever that cause might be.

Any normally sane person, if held in Guantanamo with no prospect of ever leaving the place, and with no way of challenging their imprisonment, might eventually consider suicide as a better option.

Og

 

[Recidiva]

Gitmo should be emptied and burned to the ground, salt the earth.

Look, when Amnesty and the Red Cross tell you you're a human rights violator, I'd take their word for it.

 

[Pure]

Well, the US military's reasoning was stated:

Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair.

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed," he said.

"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

I think in a sense he may be right. Perhaps the suicides did not arise from despair, but are *statements* in an ongoing conflict, where the moral 'high ground' is contested. The 'statement' might be: "Look at this place; it is an abomination."

 

[Guest]

You know, when you lock someone up where they can never see family or friends even on short visits, when they aren't certain of their crime or when they will be released, where life is rather hellish and things can happen unexpectedly (and it's fucking sticky wet humid hot all the time), after a few years you might be angry and depressed. You might be despondant and miserable and if you have nothing to shore you up in the way of faith or believe to prevent it, you might decide to just die. You might even use your death as a political statement, since your situation is rife with politics.

This is a snowball of mistakes that will result in an avalanche, and no one will look good in the end. I'd say that, at this point, there's very little that can be done that will not result, one way or another, in violence and death. No one has a crystal ball, I know, but, damn, some results are obvious as soon as you think of the actions. Like that whole "put naked hand in fire = get burned" equation.

 

[Recidiva]

Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair.

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed," he said.

"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

I think in a sense he may be right. Perhaps the suicides did not arise from despair, but are *statements* in an ongoing conflict, where the moral 'high ground' is contested. The 'statement' might be: "Look at this place; it is an abomination."

Smart, creative and committed would have meant they escaped.

Hunger strikes, suicide and otherwise aren't smart, creative, and committed, they're desperate. When there is no other recourse.

 

[neonlyte]

*double post*

 

[neonlyte]

More from Guantanamo


Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'

A top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention".

Colleen Graffy told the BBC the deaths were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary.

But lawyers say the men who hanged themselves had been driven by despair.

A military investigation into the deaths is under way, amid growing calls for the centre to be moved or closed.

Speaking to the BBC's Newshour programme, Ms Graffy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, said the three men did not value their lives nor the lives of those around them.

Detainees had access to lawyers, received mail and had the ability to write to families, so had other means of making protests, she said, and it was hard to see why the men had not protested about their situation.

The men, two Saudis and a Yemeni, were found unresponsive and not breathing by guards on Saturday morning, said officials.

They were in separate cells in Camp One, the highest security section of the prison.

It beggers belief -- no truly. How can a civilized nation put out this kind of statement?

They were in separate cells in Camp One, the highest security section of the prison.
The highest security section of the 'prison' (sic) has no security cameras ???

strategy and "a tactic
Do military specialists recognise the potential of 'strategy and tactic' then deliberately ignore the possible outcome of the same 'strategy and tactic'.

Are we to be eternally treated as fucking idiots?

An Alternative Press Release.
The United States of America regrets to announce the unfortunate death of three inmates of the Guantanamo Detention Camp. These men were being detained upon suspician of being involved in terrorism against the United States of America and other Western Nations.
The deaths, by suicide, pinpoint a lapse in the security and surveilance of Detention Camp inmates. Every effort will be made to correct deficiencies. The United States of America will do everything in its power to inform and assist the families of the dead men, the bodies of the dead men will be repatriated to the families after a full investigation has been completed.
The United States of America accepts and understands the nature of protest against detention, lessons having been learned from the IRA imprisonments in Northern Ireland more than two decades before. Whilst these individuals were detained for security reasons, the USA had full responsibility for their welfare and accepts responsibility for their unfortunate deaths and further acknowledges the breach in internal security attributed to these deaths.

 

[Guest]

Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'



It beggers belief -- no truly. How can a civilized nation put out this kind of statement?

They were in separate cells in Camp One, the highest security section of the prison.
The highest security section of the 'prison' (sic) has no security cameras ???

strategy and "a tactic
Do military specialists recognise the potential of 'strategy and tactic' then deliberately ignore the possible outcome of the same 'strategy and tactic'.

Are we to be eternally treated as fucking idiots?

An Alternative Press Release.
The United States of America regrets to announce the unfortunate death of three inmates of the Guantanamo Detention Camp. These men were being detained upon suspician of being involved in terrorism against the United States of America and other Western Nations.
The deaths, by suicide, pinpoint a lapse in the security and surveilance of Detention Camp inmates. Every effort will be made to correct deficiencies. The United States of America will do everything in its power to inform and assist the families of the dead men, the bodies of the dead men will be repatriated to the families after a full investigation has been completed.
The United States of America accepts and understands the nature of protest against detention, lessons having been learned from the IRA imprisonments in Northern Ireland more than two decades before. Whilst these individuals were detained for security reasons, the USA had full responsibility for their welfare and accepts responsibility for their unfortunate deaths and further acknowledges the breach in internal security attributed to these deaths.

Very nicely worded. Of course, this would be tantamount to the US and the military people involved admitting a mistake and I just don't think that's likely. Certainly, so far the only mistake to which the President has admitted (of which I've heard) is that of talking too boldly in the early days.

*sigh*

When one group feels they are entitled to perform the acts they condemn in another group on the basis that "we do it with rights", there isn't much hope left for rational action from that group.

 

[3113]

Ms Graffy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, said the three men did not value their lives nor the lives of those around them.

Detainees had access to lawyers, received mail and had the ability to write to families, so had other means of making protests, she said, and it was hard to see why the men had not protested about their situation.

So much easier to blame the victim. I mean, look at how nice they had it: Lawyers, ability to write letters. "Other" means of protesting.

Did I miss something? What other means?

 

[Stella_Omega]

The suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, amount to acts of war, the US military says.

The camp commander said the two Saudis and a Yemeni were "committed" and had killed themselves in "an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us".

BBC Report

Can anyone begin to explain this statement?

Hmm, "asymmetric warfare" must mean something like- using a weapon that the other side does not have. Like planes and guns against rocks and pitchforks, as an example.
I suppose we could make it more symmetrical by teaching our troops to suicide under intolerable conditions.

 

[3113]

Hmm, "asymmetric warfare" must mean something like- using a weapon that the other side does not have. Like planes and guns against rocks and pitchforks, as an example.
I suppose we could make it more symmetrical by teaching our troops to suicide under intolerable conditions.

Not to make light of the situation, but there's something very "Dr. Strangelove" about this. "We must close the suicide gap?"

 

[Guest]

Not to make light of the situation, but there's something very "Dr. Strangelove" about this. "We must close the suicide gap?"

Not nearly enough humor for it, but all the bizarreness.

 

[Pure]

asymmetric warfare

is warfare between two sides, where one appears grossly stronger and more capable than the other: for one instance, better armed than the other.

mao discussed guerrilla tactics against apparently stronger forces, saying, "when the enemy attacks we retreat; when the enemy is stationary, we harass; when the enemy retreats, we attack." IOW, conventional military wisdom is apparently turned on its head.

the issue of the contest of strength between two political units is quite complex: consider North Vietnam v. the U.S. Surely the latter is superior in several obvious respects.

the US Army is iraq is in 'asymmetric warfare'--laser bombs versus crude roadside 'improvised explosive devices.' how can the latter get the edge? surprise, popular support, psychological effect on the Americans --afraid to go off a few of the biggest and most traveled road.

as has been said, the US is not going to lose any single set engagement (battle) in Iraq. hence following Mao, the 'insurgents' avoid set battles and send suicide bombers into areas where Americans or foreigners are located (remember the bombing of the UN unit in Iraq, that killed a top leader).

the parallel case of Northern Irish prisoners starving themselves does indeed count as a measure in 'asymmetric warfare' because of the inequality of the two forces.
---

although stella is making a joke, i suppose, the gap cannot be closed in the sort of way being suggested. there is always talk of the superior group using 'special forces'and blending with the people; but fairly often this does not work; the bombers are called in to sway the outcome of an engagement. the US marines are not going to be adopting the use of improvised explosive devices.

as colly--bless her soul--pointed out in a number of recent postings, the "superior" force can win in cases where it is willing to be absolutely ruthless, e.g., kill of large numbers of civilians, ravage the countryside, etc., as for example the Brits against the Boers.

 

[Liar]

Gitmo should be emptied and burned to the ground, salt the earth.

Look, when Amnesty and the Red Cross tell you you're a human rights violator, I'd take their word for it.

To be fair though, Amnesty have told almost every nation on the planet that they are, one way or the other, a human rights violator. They strike down upon every breach of rights, even if it's by mistake or slow buerocracy. Like Scandinavian routines for handling immigrants. Ineffective due to poor planning, but was in an Amnesty report labelled "an unacceptable crime against basic human rights."

Anyway, doesn't make it right. Just sayin'.

 

[Recidiva]

To be fair though, Amnesty have told almost every nation on the planet that they are, one way or the other, a human rights violator. They strike down upon every breach of rights, even if it's by mistake or slow buerocracy. Like Scandinavian routines for handling immigrants. Ineffective due to poor planning, but was in an Amnesty report labelled "an unacceptable crime against basic human rights."

Anyway, doesn't make it right. Just sayin'.

Well, this is true. There's a bit 'o hyperbole.

They draw their line a little further than I can go occasionally. But I'm right with them on this one.

 

[john-the-author]

There is always room for the Bush administration to come up with an equivalent but larger response. I mean, I'm sure we could win if we but only had more people than the detainees. Then *we* would get the win by bringing more, and higher-level, people to the fore in this fight. That'd show 'em!

 

[Svenskaflicka]

These men are held prisoners without being informed of what crime they are supposed to have done. That's not "dealing with terrorists", that's psychological torture. Whomever authorized such a treatment of human beings is just as bad a terrorist as the suicide bombers.

I want "our" terrorist to be released into Swedish legal custody ASAP. We don't know what he has done, but if we leave him in Guantanamo, we might never find out, either...

 

[Ootpic]

As I understand Asymmetric Warfare, it describes how one side can have a technological advantage which outweighs the numerical advantage of the enemy; the decisive English Longbow at the Battle of Agincourt is an example.

Another use is in denying the enemy terrain. And in this battle the terrain is the Terrorist's body.

So, like the British Navy which denied Napoleon a sea route to invade Britain, these three prisoners (but not of war) denied their gulag camp commander three hostages to torture.

Seeing that these hostages are characterized as terrorists, and that one of the usual actions terrorists resort to is committing suicide (though usually taking others with them) the only move left for these terrorists is that they that must confess to being terrorists (whether true or not) or commit suicide and prove themselves a terrorist by committing this act of war — an act somewhat analogous to a suicide bomber — and thereby deny the enemy the use of their body for even more creative methods of inflicting physical and/or psychological pain.

Call this Catch 22 Squared.