Amateur writers - a possible illustration resource?

[SteelPoint]

This is something of a long shot but I wonder if people think the idea might have "legs".

I've often seen writers' plaintive comments to the effect that they would love to include illustration(s) in their tales... but that there is no obvious way to have this happen. The image producers on the Visual board seem distinctly less than interested in offering, barring the very occasional one. Writers not possessing talent in drawing can therefore, short of a minor miracle or stumping up cash which they will never recoup, forget the whole idea.

Since Literotica is supposed to be mainly about the written word rather than general chatting and the encouragement of erotic writing, might it not be a reasonable idea that we have a forum/thread where people can suggest images - photos or drawings - to match a writer's requirements within his/her story? These could possibly be ones they have seen while surfing the net or have already somehow in their possession. They might even have some skill with basic drawing and be able to offer help privately. I know that I personally have felt this lack for some time.

Would this work? Please note: I would not want this to become a reversal situation where artists put up a picture for people to consider as inspiration for a story. I would want the story to come first and possibly that is the main danger.

My apologies if this has been aired before.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Would this work? Please note: I would not want this to become a reversal situation where artists put up a picture for people to consider as inspiration for a story. I would want the story to come first and possibly that is the main danger.

I doubt it. If the artists over in the Visual Arts Corner aren't engaging, or no-one is engaging with them (which is often expressed over there - no-one comes to the Corner), I don't think another place will do any better.

If writers want visual interpretations of their content, they need to reach out to artists - those who are already here, and strike up a relationship. Have you tried approaching them?

It's like collaborative writing, though. No-one is going to invest significant chunks of their time unless there's already a friendship, or writers are willing to pay a commission. I've seen that occasionally in the Corner, but not often.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

It sounds like a wonderful idea, but I'm skeptical that it would draw very much interest. But one might try starting a thread, say, in the story feedback section coupling images with their favorite stories and see how that goes? I would be flattered if someone were to share photos and drawings inspired by my stories.

As a minor aside, I don't have too many lofty ambitions for my writing "career", but one that I do have is to one day see fan art of one of my characters

 

[Devinter]

As a minor aside, I don't have too many lofty ambitions for my writing "career", but one that I do have is to one day see fan art of one of my characters

(Those are supposed to be watermelons..)

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

The image producers on the Visual board seem distinctly less than interested in offering, barring the very occasional one.

I mean... I can't really fault them, to be honest. When I tried to come up with a cover for my first erotic book, I learned just how much work that is. And, as far as I can see, very few people seeking out the artists in the Visual Board offer compensation for that work that goes beyond the highly dreaded "exposure". Everyone who ever did that kind of work will know: Working for free only attracts more "customers" who will expect you to work for free.

I myself simply use AI-Tools that turn my doodles into presentable images. The results were suprisingly good. For example:

 

[Devinter]

I mean... I can't really fault them, to be honest. When I tried to come up with a cover for my first erotic book, I learned just how much work that is. And, as far as I can see, very few people seeking out the artists in the Visual Board offer compensation for that work that goes beyond the highly dreaded "exposure". Everyone who ever did that kind of work will know: Working for free only attracts more "customers" who will expect you to work for free.

I myself simply use AI-Tools that turn my doodles into presentable images. The results were suprisingly good. For example:

View attachment 2312653

You call that a DOODLE? The expression and the tiny bit of colouring you did is better than the AI version, even. Wow. How many hours did you put into that 'doodle' if I may ask?

 

[EmilyMiller]

Just a thought.

These could possibly be ones they have seen while surfing the net or have already somehow in their possession.

That leads to copyright issues. The images have an owner. They aren’t owned by the Internet.

I’ve had some success using AI to visualize my characters. Not to the standard that they could form book covers, but kinda fun.

Most of my images are on Xitter (EmilyMillerLit).

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

You call that a DOODLE? The expression and the tiny bit of colouring you did is better than the AI version, even. Wow. How many hours did you put into that 'doodle' if I may ask?

Agree, the original is superior.

 

[AchtungNight]

I mean... I can't really fault them, to be honest. When I tried to come up with a cover for my first erotic book, I learned just how much work that is. And, as far as I can see, very few people seeking out the artists in the Visual Board offer compensation for that work that goes beyond the highly dreaded "exposure". Everyone who ever did that kind of work will know: Working for free only attracts more "customers" who will expect you to work for free.

I myself simply use AI-Tools that turn my doodles into presentable images. The results were surprisingly good. For example:

View attachment 2312653

I will accept this as possible fan art of two of my characters if you're okay with that. The blonde on the left is Emily Johnson, aka Fire Woman, ace attorney and lover of simple things. The blonde on the right is Morgan Fairfax, bitch cheerleader captain and all-around prude known for dissing people she doesn't like. Blame AI Magic for putting a haughty expression and a uniform on your first character's body.

Needless to say, I'm more into Emily.

In general, yeah, EmilyMiller is right about using images. Copyright issues are a problem. It's one thing to say a random picture of an actress or drawn woman could be one of my characters. It's another to claim they actually are for a fact. Yes, Karen Gillian, Emma Stone, and Natalie Dyer could play my character Lisa Coleman at various ages. But I haven't actually talked to them or their agents about the roles. So I can't just grab a picture of that actress and say they're playing the role. But another actress under a stage name? That's the same as someone impersonating the sluttier versions of various celebrities in my works (which is a fact, I'm gating in various duplicates of said celebrities from the dimension of my imagination- great to have the Time & Space Variance Authority on your side, isn't it? ). So let's just say there's a resemblance between Thespian X and my character and leave it at that. If said thespian ever agrees to play the role, or an artist actually agrees to draw my characters and I can accept their work as such (Devinter's random girl with melons won't do for my characters, I demand more detail, sorry), then they can play the characters. Till then, use your imagination, fans. I suck at drawing as much as Devinter, so I haven't drawn any characters. :sigh: It's a rare artist who can both write and draw- I may rival some comic book writers in quality but an illustrator I ain't.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

You call that a DOODLE? The expression and the tiny bit of colouring you did is better than the AI version, even. Wow. How many hours did you put into that 'doodle' if I may ask?

About four/five hours. The hair coloring was necessary because the AI simply wouldn't accept the text input that she is supposed to be a blonde.

As I said, I learned how hard it is to make. Next time I commission someone for any kind of art, I won't question their rates anymore.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

View attachment 2312636
(Those are supposed to be watermelons..)

this one goes on the fridge!

 

[SteelPoint]

Granted that different jurisdictions have differing laws, I'm interested in the matter of copyright, on which subject I flounder.

If a writer uses an image purely for the purpose of illustrating his own work and that work goes no further or, at least, no commercial gain is made from its use, would this infringe any existing copyright?

 

[alohadave]

If a writer uses an image purely for the purpose of illustrating his own work and that work goes no further or, at least, no commercial gain is made from its use, would this infringe any existing copyright?

Yes. Any use that is not authorized by the copyright holder is copyright infringement. Publishing a story containing copyrighted pictures without permission most definitely counts as infringement.

If you use a picture to illustrate for your own personal use, and never post or publish it anywhere, and no one else ever sees it, if you don't tell anyone, no one will ever know.

 

[SteelPoint]

Yes. Any use that is not authorized by the copyright holder is copyright infringement. Publishing a story containing copyrighted pictures without permission most definitely counts as infringement.

If you use a picture to illustrate for your own personal use, and never post or publish it anywhere, and no one else ever sees it, if you don't tell anyone, no one will ever know.

So forgive me but just enquiring: to me, "publish" means "making available to the (general) public. Perhaps my understanding of the semantics is wrong here - and certainly, I'm aware that lawyers believe their interpretation of words superior to those of language experts.

Would "circulating to a closed readership of a few select friends" come into that bracket..?

 

[jhealy55]

Am I the only one who feels consistently struck by how much some here tend to overestimate the desire of creative types, in this case visual artists, to 'collaborate' by fulfilling someone else' fantasy?

Especially given how narrow our interests can be in something as broad as eroticism? I've tried keyword searches for specific types of stories and usually don't get very far in one that looks promising before something strikes me as being 'off' about the story relative to my expectations. And that's the rub; my own expectations are pretty narrowly focused on what my desires include. So I'm judging the artists choices by their ability to remain perfectly aligned to my own particular hot buttons. The minute they hit any other they've broken the spell and ruined the mood.

That isn't to say that I hated the work, but almost always come away disappointed. Which really is why I started to try and carve my own stories from the mountains of words that we all share in common. Don't get me started on the anonymous comments based on this same tendency.

So I never look at someone else' story 'prompt' or idea and think, "aahh, finally...an idea worthy of my talents!". Instead, I look at all the things floating around in the soup of pop culture and think, "wouldn't it be hot if....".

I always imagine trying to wade into something that is thrown out and even if it appeals on some level, the prompter is going to be interrupting every other sentence to inject their own opinion of how I've gotten it wrong, relative to their own particular set of hot buttons.

In which case, I've now become a micro-managed, unpaid wordsmith for hire, endlessly revising in order to satisfy someone else's unknowable fantasy, down to the last detail. Absolutely nothing about that sounds appealing. So I look at most things like this, roll my eyes and whisper, "Well...Good luck with THAT" as I click away to something else.

I take the time to publish mainly to see if there's anyone else, (or perhaps a lot of anyone's) who is closely enough aligned to my own particular brand of hot buttons to enjoy what I wrote.

In the same way I have a running file in my head of stories I'll get to 'one day' that feel infinitely more interesting than any story idea someone is offering to 'collaborate' on, provided I do all the work, and am open to taking direction until I get it right, by their standards.

So, in a long-winded way, no, I don't think you'd get a lot of takers. I suspect most who would be initially enticed by any single idea thrown out would quickly sour on the project. Mainly because most people can't really describe what they 'want' and would prefer to navigate by the "know it when I see it" method. Which is tolerable to many who can make a living doing what they love but convinces the rest of us to take up another profession and leave the creative stuff off to the side for our own enjoyment.

(picks up the soapbox and wanders off)

 

[EmilyMiller]

Am I the only one who feels consistently struck by how much some here tend to overestimate the desire of creative types, in this case visual artists, to 'collaborate' by fulfilling someone else' fantasy?

Especially given how narrow our interests can be in something as broad as eroticism? I've tried keyword searches for specific types of stories and usually don't get very far in one that looks promising before something strikes me as being 'off' about the story relative to my expectations. And that's the rub; my own expectations are pretty narrowly focused on what my desires include. So I'm judging the artists choices by their ability to remain perfectly aligned to my own particular hot buttons. The minute they hit any other they've broken the spell and ruined the mood.

That isn't to say that I hated the work, but almost always come away disappointed. Which really is why I started to try and carve my own stories from the mountains of words that we all share in common. Don't get me started on the anonymous comments based on this same tendency.

So I never look at someone else' story 'prompt' or idea and think, "aahh, finally...an idea worthy of my talents!". Instead, I look at all the things floating around in the soup of pop culture and think, "wouldn't it be hot if....".

I always imagine trying to wade into something that is thrown out and even if it appeals on some level, the promoter is going to be interrupting every other sentence to inject their own opinion of how I've gotten it wrong, relative to their own particular set of hot buttons..

In which case, I've now become a micro-managed, unpaid wordsmith for hire, endlessly revising in order to satisfy someone else's unknowable fantasy, down to the last detail. Absolutely nothing about that sounds appealing. So I look at most things like this, roll my eyes and whisper, "Well...Good luck with THAT" as I click away to something else.

I take the time to publish mainly to see if there's anyone, or perhaps a lot of anyones, else who is closely enough aligned to my own particular brand of hot buttons to enjoy what I wrote.

In the same way I have a running file in my head of stories I'll get to 'one day' that feel infinitely more interesting than any story idea someone is offering to 'collaborate' on, provided I do all the work and am open to taking direction until I get it right by their standards.

So, in a long-winded way, no, I don't think you'd get a lot of takers. I suspect most who would be initially enticed by any single idea thrown out would quickly sour on the project. Mainly because most people can't really describe what they 'want' and would prefer to navigate by the "know it when I see it" method. Which is tolerable to many who can make a living doing what they love but convinces the rest of us to take up another profession and leave the creative stuff off to the side for our own enjoyment.

(picks up the soapbox and wanders off)

I often (well maybe not often, but every now and again) had people contact me with this “hot fantasy” / “wonderful idea for a story” / “partially written outline” and ask me to fill in the blanks.

I’ve done it once and there were very specific reasons for that.

For a start, the person sending never seems to check if our kinks align. For seconds, their idea may not be quite a cool / hot as they think. And - most of all - I’ve got like thirty of my own ideas written down, or the first 2,000 words written. Guess what I’m going to prioritize?

It’s weird really.

Emily

 

[jhealy55]

I often (well maybe not often, but every now and again) had people contact me with this “hot fantasy” / “wonderful idea for a story” / “partially written outline” and ask me to fill in the blanks.

I’ve done it once and there were very specific reasons for that.

For a start, the person sending never seems to check if our kinks align. For seconds, their idea may not be quite a cool / hot as they think. And - most of all - I’ve got like thirty of my own ideas written down, or the first 2,000 words written. Guess what I’m going to prioritize?

It’s weird really.

Emily

The funniest part is that I'll never share a peep about my own story ideas, for fear that someone would exploit the pure gold of that idea for their own benefit before I get to it.

The irony is that if I ever threw one of them out as an 'invitation to collaborate', everyone here would likely roll their eyes and whisper, "Well....good luck with THAT!" as they clicked away to something more interesting.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Granted that different jurisdictions have differing laws, I'm interested in the matter of copyright, on which subject I flounder.

If a writer uses an image purely for the purpose of illustrating his own work and that work goes no further or, at least, no commercial gain is made from its use, would this infringe any existing copyright?

Just to support @alohadave - it’s copyright infringement whatever you do. It’s just no one is going to come and check your hard drive. If you store your story using other people’s images on some organization’s cloud storage, then the risk goes up a bit. Sharing it with friends, up a bit more. But publishing it to an audience, even behind a paywall puts you at risk. Depends on who owns the image and how litigious they are.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

The funniest part is that I'll never share a peep about my own story ideas, for fear that someone would exploit the pure gold of that idea for their own benefit before I get to it.

The irony is that if I ever threw one of them out as an 'invitation to collaborate', everyone here would likely roll their eyes and whisper, "Well....good luck with THAT!" as they clicked away to something more interesting.

We all have our own twisted view of reality and our role in it .

Emily

 

[SteelPoint]

So, in a long-winded way, no, I don't think you'd get a lot of takers. I suspect most who would be initially enticed by any single idea thrown out would quickly sour on the project. Mainly because most people can't really describe what they 'want' and would prefer to navigate by the "know it when I see it" method. Which is tolerable to many who can make a living doing what they love but convinces the rest of us to take up another profession and leave the creative stuff off to the side for our own enjoyment.

(picks up the soapbox and wanders off)

Yes, I do understand the point you're making. We all have our own individual start and end points for what we find stimulating, I grant that. Expecting an artist (as such) to commit to hours of work for the sake of your vision is a big ask, for sure.

I think what I'm suggesting here may be something less ambitious. As mentioned, maybe just a "meeting place" for writers who have a scene in their mind and where they could give a brief outline. You know: "Has anyone seen anywhere a picture/photo/image of something like.....".

That's really all I had in mind. But if it wouldn't work, fair enough.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Granted that different jurisdictions have differing laws, I'm interested in the matter of copyright, on which subject I flounder.

If a writer uses an image purely for the purpose of illustrating his own work and that work goes no further or, at least, no commercial gain is made from its use, would this infringe any existing copyright?

Yes, the artist owns the copyright, period. No one else has permission to use it, unless the artist grants a licence or sells it to the writer.

 

[SteelPoint]

But then, perhaps intriguingly, the "artwork" concerned may often be contested these days as not being original in the first place. Technology has brought us to what some consider to be a dark place...

Are all images "art"?

And, as regards photography in particular, it can be argued that most "scenes" exist independently of photographers and their equipment. Can they really be copyrighted?

 

[ElectricBlue]

But then, perhaps intriguingly, the "artwork" concerned may often be contested these days as not being original in the first place. Technology has brought us to what some consider to be a dark place...

That's the core of the whole AI art debate - the existing images the AI was trained on. They belong to the original artists.

Are all images "art"?

No. A road sign, for example, may contain images (a graphic representation of something) but that would be generally be characterised as a sign, not "art".

And, as regards photography in particular, it can be argued that most "scenes" exist independently of photographers and their equipment. Can they really be copyrighted?

Copyright in photography always belongs to the photographer, the person with the camera. The "scene" you describe is the set or the studio, but it's the captured image that belongs to the photographer. That's the commodity, not the room it was taken in.

 

[Devinter]

And, as regards photography in particular, it can be argued that most "scenes" exist independently of photographers and their equipment. Can they really be copyrighted?

I understand what you're trying to say, but the answer is Yes. Even if you take a photograph of an extremely common, public thing - say, the Statue of Liberty - so long as your photo has anything at all that gives it the slightest threshold of originality, it will be copyrighted. Oddly enough, this includes if you take a photograph of a separate copyrighted object, at least in the EU. Not entirely sure if the same applies world-wide.

 

[Bamagan]

But then, perhaps intriguingly, the "artwork" concerned may often be contested these days as not being original in the first place. Technology has brought us to what some consider to be a dark place...

Are all images "art"?

And, as regards photography in particular, it can be argued that most "scenes" exist independently of photographers and their equipment. Can they really be copyrighted?

To build on what EB and Devinter said, yes, the image the photographer created is copyrighted, even if the subject matter is something public, like a city skyline, a building or monument, the night sky, etc. Can you use their image without permission? Not legally. Can you attempt to duplicate it by taking your own picture of the same subject? Of course, if you can sort out the logistics of getting to the same vantage point, and if the weather or whatever cooperates if we're talking pictures of landscapes, etc. As a practical matter, photographers who take pictures that are relatively simple to reproduce are probably not likely to pursue litigation, because they'd find it hard to prove any remediable harm, but they might prevail in court (at least in the US) if they are able to prove that the image in dispute is undeniably theirs (which might be impossible if it's something like the Statue of Liberty on a cloudless summer day).