I am beginning to feel that for whatever reason he is being jammed down our throats as the greatest thing since sliced bread. True, he was a great fighter but I am getting tired of hearing how he was a great American. The press and media seem to make him out to be some sort of ideal American that we should revere. He did terrific things for the fight game in this country and around the world. However, in my opinion, he did nothing special for this country outside of fighting.
ALI - A Great American???
- Thread starter TonyG
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Texan
'nuf said
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I don't have anything against Ali. I clearly remember what a good boxer he was. I also remember what a big mouth he had.
I'm also old enough to remember that a man named Casius Clay received a draft notice in the mail; but a man named Mohammed Ali refused to go to war. The timing with which he became an Islamic pacifist was a little too convenient.
For some reason, Ali's new found religion did not prevent him from verbally berating or pounding the shit out of his opponents.
I understand that Ali "allowed" his name to be attached to many good causes when his boxing career was over. I'm just not sure that makes him anything special as an American. A great boxer ... sure.... a great American....... ????
I'm also old enough to remember that a man named Casius Clay received a draft notice in the mail; but a man named Mohammed Ali refused to go to war. The timing with which he became an Islamic pacifist was a little too convenient.
For some reason, Ali's new found religion did not prevent him from verbally berating or pounding the shit out of his opponents.
I understand that Ali "allowed" his name to be attached to many good causes when his boxing career was over. I'm just not sure that makes him anything special as an American. A great boxer ... sure.... a great American....... ????
patient1
Mr. Cheyenne
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Texan said:
I'll admit I've got something against Ali - he was an obnoxiously arrogant relentless competitor. I remeber Cassius Clay, too. He was no better.
I felt the same way Texan did about him at the time he became a concientious objector.
I've since realized that 1) He wouldn't have gone to war. He'd have been boxing in the Army boxing program, entertaining the other soldiers, even defending his title.
2) He could have easily fled the country, changed nationalities
3) He was expecting to go to prison as a result.
I don't think he made an easy choice, especially not for the greatest ego in the world. He chose prison over continued fame & fortune.
Even so, I don't think living according to your religious beliefs makes anybody a "Great American" . I think it's an ordinary american activity that makes the country great.
Don King got the best of the millions. Ali & his entourage squandered the remains. I think that it was great of him to donate his time & prestige to social causes rather than commercial ones when he was reduced to selling off his own souvenirs & memorabilia ( gloves, robes, trophies, etc .) to support himself.
That's why I think he's a great American.
Cheyenne
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patient1 said:
The key part in that paragraph is that he squandered his money in the first place. He gets no extra credit points for being a poor money manager. That may be more like a "common" American than a "great" one.
Is he still selling souvenirs and memorabilia to live? No? Then he must have benefited commerially from his fame somewhere along the recent road.
That leaves donating time and prestige to social causes as the reason he is a great American. Americans are a very giving people. Even the rich and famous ones. While it is nice of Ali to do donate, it isn't that out of the ordinary, either.
G
Guest
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Great American?? Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree wholeheartedly with Cheyenne..Cassius Clay was nothing but a big mouthed, egotistical, draft dodging nigger...In WW2 they would have shot you for what he did...He hates white people and yet they continue to lick his black ass.I sure as Hell don't understand this country anymore....How in Hell could anyone ever consider that racist asshole a Great American is beyond me..I sure as Hell don't..........
I agree wholeheartedly with Cheyenne..Cassius Clay was nothing but a big mouthed, egotistical, draft dodging nigger...In WW2 they would have shot you for what he did...He hates white people and yet they continue to lick his black ass.I sure as Hell don't understand this country anymore....How in Hell could anyone ever consider that racist asshole a Great American is beyond me..I sure as Hell don't..........
april-wine
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Re: Great American?? Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I doubt she agrees with your own racist idealogy.......Hmmmm and I see you can't stomach it yourself......
Unregistered said:
I doubt she agrees with your own racist idealogy.......Hmmmm and I see you can't stomach it yourself......
Mike Hammer
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tony_gam said:
You've gotta be kidding, he is without a doubt a great man. He is a man that said what he thought and did what he said. Stood his ground in the ring as well as in public.
Ali's hard work, skills, and heart were the reason the U.S. had him represent democracy and a great Nation in the Olympics, and he did it with great success. He didn't feel Veitnam was his battle or ours, so what, who did? He held to his beliefs even when the stance and outcome were not in his favor. I don't believe this was purely for his benefit, it was a statement to a nation that could not have been made by a lessor personality.
He carried the weight of Race with fearless pride in a time that had strong sentiment towards Blacks helping an entire Race step forward. Carried the Heavyweight Title not only once but Three times. There is plenty more reason to find him to be a great man if you open your eyes and look for it.
What was that Cheyenne? Oh he's not a billionaire. Well hell I guess he is just average after all. WTF?
P.S. tony_gam what are you talking about when you say he's being jammed down our throats? I haven't noticed.
Mike Hammer
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Re: Great American?? Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're the biggest fucking idiot to post on this thread yet..... Don't let the inbreeding in your family go on another generation, it's starting to take its toll.
Unregistered said:
You're the biggest fucking idiot to post on this thread yet..... Don't let the inbreeding in your family go on another generation, it's starting to take its toll.
Thumper
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WD
You said it better than I could.
At the time he "dodged the draft", which in my opinion is a misnomer as he flat out refused to go and didn't run away from that fact, his people were still fighting for the basic rights that most others in this country took for granted. It was a stupid war fought for stupid reasons. To blindly follow orders when you know such orders are wrong does this country no service. I do not fault those who went and served as they saw fit. They did what they thought was right. He spoke up. That is what a good American does when he sees his country doing something wrong.
People like Hitler thrive on sheep.
WriterDom said:
You said it better than I could.
At the time he "dodged the draft", which in my opinion is a misnomer as he flat out refused to go and didn't run away from that fact, his people were still fighting for the basic rights that most others in this country took for granted. It was a stupid war fought for stupid reasons. To blindly follow orders when you know such orders are wrong does this country no service. I do not fault those who went and served as they saw fit. They did what they thought was right. He spoke up. That is what a good American does when he sees his country doing something wrong.
People like Hitler thrive on sheep.
Mike Hammer
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Re: Re: WD
Wow that's a damn good point pp man. Fucking amazing.
p_p_man said:
He dodged the drafy by converting to Islam taking the name of Mohammed Ali and refusing to fight on religious grounds.
He didn't have to run away...
Wow that's a damn good point pp man. Fucking amazing.
Thumper
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p_p_man
You know for an absolute fact that the only reason he converted was to avoid the draft? Or is that a convenient position to take to support your opinion of him.
He seems to have stuck with it. Kudos to him.
Arrogant as a boxer? Isn't that almost a prerequisite for a fighter? I can't speak for the man himself but it is possible that he went into the ring as a competitor in a sporting event without any animosity or hatred for the other boxer. To do what they do requires a certain amount of ego...can't show weakness.
I applaud any man who refuses to kill or be killed for stupid reasons.
How come we always praise someone for having the backbone to stand up for their convictions and beliefs, but only as long as those beliefs don't go against our own.
You know for an absolute fact that the only reason he converted was to avoid the draft? Or is that a convenient position to take to support your opinion of him.
He seems to have stuck with it. Kudos to him.
Arrogant as a boxer? Isn't that almost a prerequisite for a fighter? I can't speak for the man himself but it is possible that he went into the ring as a competitor in a sporting event without any animosity or hatred for the other boxer. To do what they do requires a certain amount of ego...can't show weakness.
I applaud any man who refuses to kill or be killed for stupid reasons.
How come we always praise someone for having the backbone to stand up for their convictions and beliefs, but only as long as those beliefs don't go against our own.
Mike Hammer
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"How come we always praise someone for having the backbone to stand up for their convictions and beliefs, but only as long as those beliefs don't go against our own."
Well said Thumper, but why did ya waste it on pp man?
Well said Thumper, but why did ya waste it on pp man?
M
miles
Guest
At one time Ali was one of the most recognized and loved people on the planet. He was incredibly gifted, and I don't think any of the boxers I've seen since he was in his prime could carry his jock.
Until someone can show me otherwise I'll always believe he was used as a pawn by the Black Muslims. To say he wasn't very bright would be an understatement. He was disqualified from military service in 1964 when he scored a 78 on an an Army IQ test. A couple of years later the Army lowered its standards (more cannon fodder for Vietnam) and he was reclassified and eligible for the draft.
Great boxer? Hell yes. Political hero? I don't buy it.
And BTW, Ali is hardly broke. Anything but.
Until someone can show me otherwise I'll always believe he was used as a pawn by the Black Muslims. To say he wasn't very bright would be an understatement. He was disqualified from military service in 1964 when he scored a 78 on an an Army IQ test. A couple of years later the Army lowered its standards (more cannon fodder for Vietnam) and he was reclassified and eligible for the draft.
Great boxer? Hell yes. Political hero? I don't buy it.
And BTW, Ali is hardly broke. Anything but.
EthiopianPrince
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Great thread.
I'm not expert on Ali, but he seems to have lived his life with integrity.
But I'm not so into the glorification of athletes as role models.
Paul Robeson and Martin Luther King were black men who were Great Americans.
Comments and replies?
I'm not expert on Ali, but he seems to have lived his life with integrity.
But I'm not so into the glorification of athletes as role models.
Paul Robeson and Martin Luther King were black men who were Great Americans.
Comments and replies?
p_p_man
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Re: p_p_man
I'm just delving back into my memory to the media comments of the time. There was also a lot of hilarity at his decision because it was considered a peculiar and eccentric move in those days to convert to Islam from Christianity.
How the fuck do you know my opinion of him?
I've never mentioned it to anyone.
You're assuming you know my opinion of him...
Tut! Tut!
Thumper said:
I'm just delving back into my memory to the media comments of the time. There was also a lot of hilarity at his decision because it was considered a peculiar and eccentric move in those days to convert to Islam from Christianity.
How the fuck do you know my opinion of him?
I've never mentioned it to anyone.
You're assuming you know my opinion of him...
Tut! Tut!
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