Affirmative Action

[modest mouse]

An argument ensued between myself and a close freind last night as to whether AA is racism or merely a benign Govt sponsored program. There was no resolution as we vehemently disagree. I believe it to be racism, plain and simple.

AA is being reviewed across the country by polcy makers and int he legal system.

Regardless of the merits and benefits that have resulted, does anyone else see it as racism?

 

[MissTaken]

When AA involves employers and schools meet quotas, it is reverse discrimination.

There are many tales out there concerning a lesser qualified individual being hired in order to meet a quota.

When all things are equal, experience, education and skill...sure, meet your quota.

Otherwise.....

 

[kotori]

If it is racism, then it's fighting fire with fire. What's twenty-five years of "Affirming" a racial preference compared to three hundred years of a negative preference? It's corrective, like having the county works department straighten a hair-pin curve on a busy highway.

 

[riff]

Not sure what you mean?

 

[sexy-girl]

its needed so its not racism ... when its not needed (hopefully one day it wont be) then maybe you could say it was racism


just my opinion

 

[modest mouse]

If it is racism, then it's fighting fire with fire. What's twenty-five years of "Affirming" a racial preference compared to three hundred years of a negative preference? It's corrective, like having the county works department straighten a hair-pin curve on a busy highway.

So you'd rather have a pendulum than a lack of racial considerations. Thatys a logical error of epic proportions and the excuse used by ethnic cleansers the world over.

"Just making up for past sins."

Bullshit.

its needed so its not racism ... when its not needed (hopefully one day it wont be) then maybe you could say it was racism


just my opinion

Thing is: Need is subjective. Lots of people 'needed' to string up blacks a hundred years ago. Blacks 'needed' separate schools and facilites so they wouldn't taint whites. See the problem?

 

[MissTaken]

The public works department needs to be careful they don't overcompensate.

Yes, three hundred years of racism is unconcienable (sp?), but not to be paid for by my innocent children.

 

[sexy-girl]

Thing is: Need is subjective. Lots of people 'needed' to string up blacks a hundred years ago. Blacks 'needed' separate schools and facilites so they wouldn't taint whites. See the problem?

nope because your needed had inverted comma's and mine didn't


i believe it is needed now ... yes i agree that there might be a danger of it being overused but i think that danger is out weighed by the discrimination that still occurs


affirmative action isnt an ideal solution but nobody has been able to come up with a better way of doing it

 

[Marxist]

The number one beneficiary of AA is White women.

 

[MissTaken]

The number one beneficiary of AA is White women.

No arguement here.

Again, all things being equal, hire your for your quota. Otherwise, it sucks the big wazoo.

 

[modest mouse]

The number one beneficiary of AA is White women.

I'd agree with that. The program, as even those in favor of it, is staggeringly flawed.






sexy-girl....

How about a program for Gays, the economically depressed, diabetics, and the manic-depressive?

Any similar policy in the UK? Im guessing not, but who knows.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

How is it racism? Racism is the belief that certain abilities or aptitudes can be linked to the color of one's skin, isn't it? (E.g., He's black, so he's athletic but stupid. He's white, so he's intelligent but can't dance.) I don't quite see how AA can be called racist. It is simply an attempt to compensate for certain discriminatory practices inherent in our social system. It is NOT an attempt to "make up" for past discriminations. That's the simpleton's interpretation of AA.

 

[kotori]

So you do nothing? Say, "Hey, we don't hate you anymore, so you're now equal, and may the best person win?" Say, "Well hell, we put up a sign before the turn, they should have seen it. We can't help it if they don't know how to read."

The hope with Affirmative Action, is that there will be an end to it one day--that it works towards making a level playing field. There can't be a true meritocracy while merit is subject to purchase.

Your innocent children, M.T., will be the beneficiaries of a system that doesn't address past wrong doings. Of course, it's passive on their part, but they still come out on top for no other reason than they're not in need of AA.

 

[Ishmael]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The worst part of AA is the effect on the beneficiary. They will never know if they were hired and promoted because of merit, or because some nebulous number had to be met and they got lucky. It robs them of their dignity and the satisfaction that comes with knowing you deserved your position. They are robbed of the respect of their co-workers because there is always the thought in the back of their mind that you are only there to meet a quota. They are denied credibility.

It's a cruel reward indeed.

Ishmael

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Oh, c'mon, Ish. By that logic, every southerner under Jim Crow would be wracked with guilt, secretly wondering whether he got his job simply because he was white.

 

[KinkyKat]

AA is certainly reverse discrimination in many respects.

While I strongly oppose quota systems, I do find value in encouraging employers to consider older workers, those with disabilities, etc.

However, I remain totally opposed to quotas -- especially racial quotas -- either in private business or government jobs.

 

[Ishmael]

Oh, c'mon, Ish. By that logic, every southerner under Jim Crow would be wracked with guilt, secretly wondering whether he got his job simply because he was white.

Huh? Make sense.

I'm not defending aparthied or discrimination of any kind.

Even under Jim Crow, I know of no man that was given a job because he wasn't black. The best candidate for the position got the position. Blacks just weren't given the opportunity to compete for the job. The difference may be subtle, but it's significant in it's subtlety.

Ishmael

 

[riff]

This is all I will say.

1990. I am on a stafford loan studying language and literature.

Walking around campus. I am white. I am male. I am in a graduate college of liberal arts.

Scholarships and grants abound, but I don't meat the criteria.....

 

[MissTaken]

This is all I will say.

1990. I am on a stafford loan studying language and literature.

Walking around campus. I am white. I am male. I am in a graduate college of liberal arts.

Scholarships and grants abound, but I don't meat the criteria.....

*sigh*

Those were the days...


(seething with sarcasm!)

 

[Sir Alex 4 U]

When AA involves employers and schools meet quotas, it is reverse discrimination.

There are many tales out there concerning a lesser qualified individual being hired in order to meet a quota.

When all things are equal, experience, education and skill...sure, meet your quota.

Otherwise.....

There is no such thing as "Discrimination" or reverse racism. Racism or discrimination is an equal opportunity act. If a white person is discriminated against for his/her race, it's just plain racism.

 

[Ishmael]

This is all I will say.

1990. I am on a stafford loan studying language and literature.

Walking around campus. I am white. I am male. I am in a graduate college of liberal arts.

Scholarships and grants abound, but I don't meat the criteria.....

I hear you Riff.

Private grants and scholarships should be able to be targeted to any criteria the grantor wishes to place on them.

Any grants or scholarships funded with public dollars should be awarded on the basis of merit and merit alone.

Ishmael

 

[MissTaken]

There is no such thing as "Discrimination" or reverse racism. Racism or discrimination is an equal opportunity act. If a white person is discriminated against for his/her race, it's just plain racism.

Good point.

And gender bias is gender bias...

ex: When operating a human services agency, I was told that I had to a hire a male in the administration.

As it happens, the two original positions were filled by women.

My response: "Show me a qualified male and I will hire him."

 

[Hamletmaschine]

Huh? Make sense.

I'm not defending aparthied or discrimination of any kind.

Even under Jim Crow, I know of no man that was given a job because he wasn't black. The best candidate for the position got the position. Blacks just weren't given the opportunity to compete for the job. The difference may be subtle, but it's significant in it's subtlety.

Ishmael

Which of those words didn't you understand, my friend?

No, I don't think you're defending apartheid or discrimination. Few people do defend it these days.

But I think you're attempting to create a difference that doesn't make a difference. I've never known anyone who felt guilty for very long because he or she got a job. You take the money and run.

 

[bored1]

I love it when I see employment oppurtunities advertised for my local BigTen school, hell any government/ education job. The ads read Minoritys / women / disabled encouraged to apply. what that means to me is the white males are not welcome. All people should be encouraged to apply.

 

[Ishmael]

Which of those words didn't you understand, my friend?

No, I don't think you're defending apartheid or discrimination. Few people do defend it these days.

But I think you're attempting to create a difference that doesn't make a difference. I've never known anyone who felt guilty for very long because he or she got a job. You take the money and run.

Yep, that is the short term view.

Survey after survey has shown that one of the last reasons that people leave one job for another is money. Under your hypothesis, it would be the number one reason.

Ishmael