affirmative action

[bg23]

what's your take on it?
what do you define it as?
do you support it?
why - why not?

 

[Morwen]

what's your take on it?
what do you define it as?
do you support it?
why - why not?

I will do your homework for cheap! Send me a private message! Cash in advance!

 

[bg23]

ah.

i see.

 

[I'mVan]

what's your take on it?
what do you define it as?
do you support it?
why - why not?

You mean like hiring minorities just because they're minorities and not because they're the best person for a position?

I think that answers all your questions.

 

[DevilishTexan]

Sucks. Total entitlement. Hey, let's keep 'em on welfare why not? Fucking Dems will give away anything to stay in power.

 

[GirlMidnite]

what's your take on it?
what do you define it as?
do you support it?
why - why not?

It's an unfair advantage to favour those who would otherwise be at an unfair disadvantage. That is my take. I am in favour of it in societies which have such an ingrained problem with prejudice that they need a measure such as this to ensure social discontent is not the alternative option.

(ps, we have equal opportunities, but not affirmitive action in the UK- there is no obligation by law to employ/enrol a quota of minorities. But the UK is not such a prejudice society, or at least, prejudice is different from the US.)

 

[bg23]

It's an unfair advantage to favour those who would otherwise be at an unfair disadvantage. That is my take. I am in favour of it in societies which have such an ingrained problem with prejudice that they need a measure such as this to ensure social discontent is not the alternative option.

(ps, we have equal opportunities, but not affirmitive action in the UK- there is no obligation by law to employ/enrol a quota of minorities. But the UK is not such a prejudice society, or at least, prejudice is different from the US.)

*nods*

that describes it quite well.

i'm hoping to engender some sort of debate.
i'd like to see both sides.

 

[Morwen]

(ps, we have equal opportunities, but not affirmitive action in the UK- there is no obligation by law to employ/enrol a quota of minorities. But the UK is not such a prejudice society, or at least, prejudice is different from the US.)

The UK is a joke. "Let's double our population through immigration on an entirely unsustainable economic system. Oh and by the way, let's have the most radical, anti-Western Islamist preachers come here and make nothing but newspapers and terrorists."

Scotland, Wales, and Ireland should immediately sever all ties with the eventual Civil War of a society that is the UK.

 

[ImSinister]

what's your take on it?
what do you define it as?
do you support it?
why - why not?

This has always been a tough issue for me.

On the one hand, it seems to be asking a lot of people to view everyone in a color-blind way when you are obviously favoring an entire group of people because of their color.

On the other hand, it makes complete intellectual sense to me that groups that have suffered from so many fewer opportunities because of their race/color would need a helping hand to try and shorten the time for them to be on par with those races that did not suffer.

I would say that it depends what the ultimate goal is.

 

[GirlMidnite]

The UK is a joke. "Let's double our population through immigration on an entirely unsustainable economic system. Oh and by the way, let's have the most radical, anti-Western Islamist preachers come here and make nothing but newspapers and terrorists."

Scotland, Wales, and Ireland should immediately sever all ties with the eventual Civil War of a society that is the UK.

er okay, well I wonder what your take on a multiethnic society is (seeing as this is what this debate implies.)

To be fair, there does need to be a better immigration system, and they are socking this in place- however they need immigrants because a lot more Brits leave than come in (or at least, this was the case in the late 90's), and many Brits are not having children, the population demographics are looking older and older. Hence us younger Brits receiving letters about 3-6 yrs late from an ashamed government saying that we need to pay more national insurance to ensure a sufficient pension.

And to be fair, there simply are not that many anti-western Islamic preachers coming in, they just get a lot of publicity.

 

[dagdag]

Affirmative! It looks like there is still a need for affirmative action. Although, it is not fair to the smart, witty and capable to loose their job to someone who is not qualified, it is our duty to make minorities qualified.

Simplistic approach: Not hiring women to these jobs since they are not applying... It is not acceptable... Well, since we raised them the way they are; we now need to lure them to these jobs and go after them and try to hire em...

If you have minorities start the race a little behind, it is not going to be very easy for them to catch-up. First, have them as slaves and give them welfare later, and suddenly expect them to act, compete in a capitalist economy! No way jose, they are not going to survive...

 

[SweetSurrendered1]

I think it once had its place but I think that time has come and gone. It's harmful to a company to have people in a job that they can't handle and that's harmful to the employees of the company and that's harmful to the economy eventually. Doesn't end up doing anyone any good.

 

[GirlMidnite]

I think it once had its place but I think that time has come and gone. It's harmful to a company to have people in a job that they can't handle and that's harmful to the employees of the company and that's harmful to the economy eventually. Doesn't end up doing anyone any good.

Has this been shown to actually be the case? The point of affirmitive action is that because someone begins at a lower social level, with less opportunities, a job offers them the chance to fulfill their potential. If they cannot, yeah, fire 'em women, black, disabled or whatever. But affirmitive action presents an opportunity, if someone is unable to realise that opportunity then that opportunity ought to be offered to someone else.
Affirmitive action has helped to propogate a black elite, that will ensure that affirmitive action will be made socioeconomically redundant in the future.

 

[I'mVan]

Has this been shown to actually be the case? The point of affirmitive action is that because someone begins at a lower social level, with less opportunities, a job offers them the chance to fulfill their potential. If they cannot, yeah, fire 'em women, black, disabled or whatever. But affirmitive action presents an opportunity, if someone is unable to realise that opportunity then that opportunity ought to be offered to someone else.
Affirmitive action has helped to propogate a black elite, that will ensure that affirmitive action will be made socioeconomically redundant in the future.

Really? I'm no employer, but I thought affirmative action meant THOU SHALT EMPLOY 17 AFRICAN AMERICANS, 32 WOMEN, 9 DISABLED PEOPLE (OR ELSE).

 

[dagdag]

I think it once had its place but I think that time has come and gone. It's harmful to a company to have people in a job that they can't handle and that's harmful to the employees of the company and that's harmful to the economy eventually. Doesn't end up doing anyone any good.

if we can not elevate the overall, we'll hurt since the once who are doing better will have to subsidize the underperformers to avoid clushes. That is not only bad for the economy but also bad for the safety...

 

[Morwen]

er okay, well I wonder what your take on a multiethnic society is (seeing as this is what this debate implies.)

To be fair, there does need to be a better immigration system, and they are socking this in place- however they need immigrants because a lot more Brits leave than come in (or at least, this was the case in the late 90's), and many Brits are not having children, the population demographics are looking older and older. Hence us younger Brits receiving letters about 3-6 yrs late from an ashamed government saying that we need to pay more national insurance to ensure a sufficient pension.

And to be fair, there simply are not that many anti-western Islamic preachers coming in, they just get a lot of publicity.

The problem is a Green one. The mantra of constant construction, constant population growth, constant economic expansion is hitting the wall. It is patently idiotic to constantly import more people onto an island with a played out resource base. To import people who hate everything you stand for and will replace it with some medieval ideology is criminally negligent.

I'm not in one post going to be explain the complete unsustainability of American-style growth capitalism. No doubt you see it all around you, higher fuel prices, higher food prices, more traffic on the roads, more crime, reduced quality of life. But Britain is acting exactly like America.

You want more of this why?

 

[unculbact]

what's your take on it?
what do you define it as?
do you support it?
why - why not?

All my rational brain can think of is, that you have an affirmative action plan so that you will no longer need it. Obviously, it's supposed to be a temporary thing to correct a problem, but in many places it's become institutionalized. The affirmative action officer at a university doesn't want their job to fall victim to any sort of "sunset law", so, even if the problem is solved, they have a motivation to find yet new "discriminations" that can be corrected. This reached the point of absurdity in an incident at the University of Minnesota Department of Scandanavian Studies in the early 1990's.

Using my semi-rational brain, a diversity class will certainly warn you that diverse is yet to come...

Using my non-rational brain, BG's av is inspiring me to action, and I can guarantee her response would be affirmative.

 

[dagdag]

The problem is a Green one. The mantra of constant construction, constant population growth, constant economic expansion is hitting the wall. It is patently idiotic to constantly import more people onto an island with a played out resource base. To import people who hate everything you stand for and will replace it with some medieval ideology is criminally negligent.

I'm not in one post going to be explain the complete unsustainability of American-style growth capitalism. No doubt you see it all around you, higher fuel prices, higher food prices, more traffic on the roads, more crime, reduced quality of life. But Britain is acting exactly like America.

You want more of this why?

economics is the study of how men choose to use scarce resources and to distribute them among... Unsustainability may be discussed or perhaps at the cost of other people's well beings, we are consuming the most resources. But one factor in GDP product is increasing the population... Or the other way around; Look at negative growth european countries... Elementary schools are closing since there are no students to attend, ie no jobs for the teachers.. no market for johnson and johnson's baby shampoos, well lets get creative and sell the same product to older people who may want to feel like a baby... it is never easy, it is never simple, it is always gray, and it is always complicated...

 

[GirlMidnite]

The problem is a Green one. The mantra of constant construction, constant population growth, constant economic expansion is hitting the wall. It is patently idiotic to constantly import more people onto an island with a played out resource base. To import people who hate everything you stand for and will replace it with some medieval ideology is criminally negligent.

I'm not in one post going to be explain the complete unsustainability of American-style growth capitalism. No doubt you see it all around you, higher fuel prices, higher food prices, more traffic on the roads, more crime, reduced quality of life. But Britain is acting exactly like America.

You want more of this why?

import people who hate everything you stand for? There is no evidence of this- or not to the extent you generalise. My mother loves Britain, there are many muslims who whole heartedly embrace Britain. I agree that the government needs to do more to emphasise integration- not enough is done in this regard, but I don't think you are totally talking from an unbiased place in this regard.

Yes there is little space in Britain, and what little green belt there is has been gobbled up, but this more due to an inefficient transport and commercial policy (for example, roads are built that do not need to be built, but seem to get constructed in the absence or real sensible local decision making by councils), and the preference for housing in the South than the North (3 years ago, I read in the Big Issue that some houses in the north were going for £2, I kid you not.) Therefore, the lack of space isn't due to immigration.

There is nothing wrong with immigration, once our system becomes more like the Canadian system (where there is a merit system) and stricter in other ways, it won't be perfect but it will be much improved.

 

[Morwen]

economics is the study of how men choose to use scarce resources and to distribute them among... Unsustainability may be discussed or perhaps at the cost of other people's well beings, we are consuming the most resources. But one factor in GDP product is increasing the population... Or the other way around; Look at negative growth european countries... Elementary schools are closing since there are no students to attend, ie no jobs for the teachers.. no market for johnson and johnson's baby shampoos, well lets get creative and sell the same product to older people who may want to feel like a baby... it is never easy, it is never simple, it is always gray, and it is always complicated...

The fuck does Johnson's baby shampoo have to do with it? Don't mince words. Speak facts.

Europe is dying because it's not having any children anymore.

The European population will be completely replaced by immigrants from Africa and the Middle East within sixty years barring some catastrophe. The average European reproductive rate is like half a child per couple. Immigrants have four or more children.

Within a generation, most of Western Europe will be non-white, non-European Muslims or black Africans. You are making your own children and grandchildren into abused minorities.

The failed policies of your governments are a historical catastrophe. Even Rome didn't implode with such blind stupidity. For you to sit there and ignore it is shameful, to say the least.

 

[Marxist]

By and large, #1 beneficiary of affirmitive action has been white women.

 

[Modern Mephisto]

Ideally, affirmative action should be a policy whereby discrimination - discrimination based on race, gender, religion, etc. - is stripped away and individuals are judged solely on their qualifications. Under those conditions, I'd support the policy because, deep down, I'd like to believe we're capable of looking beyond someone's skin color or ethnic background, gender, religious or cultural beliefs, and all those other factors which may be irrelevant for a specific career choice or school admission or the like. It should be as simple as: does this individual have the potential to succeed?

Unfortunately, I think too often affirmative action amounts to giving preference to minorities regardless of qualifications. It's more about filling some racial or gender-specific quota to create some false sense of equality. I believe this approach is actually rather insulting and patronizing to the minorities - suggesting they could never make it on their own merits and must be handed opportunities by the kindly white male benefactors - and only serves to breed resentment and racial tension, as the majority applicants feel passed over - or, more accurately, screwed over - on account of having to concede their position to placate minorities. Personally, I think affirmative action causes more problems than it solves, doing more damage than good.

I want to see everyone given equal opportunity to succeed, but I believe they should have to earn that success. Unfortunately, given that ours is a society predominantly run by white males, it does mean women and people of other races start in a disadvantageous position. It will be an uphill battle all the way, and even when they do succeed on their own, they'll continue to meet opposition and resentment precisely because the majority doesn't expect them to succeed without special favors.

Basically, the system is fucked because the people who established it are horribly flawed.

 

[honeylick]

By and large, #1 beneficiary of affirmitive action has been white women.

that was our eveil plot.

 

[bg23]

All my rational brain can think of is, that you have an affirmative action plan so that you will no longer need it. Obviously, it's supposed to be a temporary thing to correct a problem, but in many places it's become institutionalized. The affirmative action officer at a university doesn't want their job to fall victim to any sort of "sunset law", so, even if the problem is solved, they have a motivation to find yet new "discriminations" that can be corrected. This reached the point of absurdity in an incident at the University of Minnesota Department of Scandanavian Studies in the early 1990's.

a lot of the aa in schools is based around social economic disadvantage. they lowered the entry standards for people from those areas. in some ways, this does make sense because being financially disadvantaged does impact on your education. however, a lot of the affirmative action that i see being implemented is targeted at race, etc. this i don't agree with. isn't it, in itself, some form of racism? i read an article the other day about Cookie Rebels who were selling cookies at lower prices depending on what colour you are. I think they hit the nail quite on the head with that.
i do appreciate that it is necessary where prejudice does exist, but because i don't see very much prejudice where i come from, i suppose it doesn't strike me as so serious.

Using my semi-rational brain, a diversity class will certainly warn you that diverse is yet to come...

Using my non-rational brain, BG's av is inspiring me to action, and I can guarantee her response would be affirmative.

my goodness.

 

[Marxist]

that was our eveil plot.

FREE THE WHITE WOMEN!!!!!