Actual Mindfuck

[Pure]

A few days ago, I used the term 'actual mindfuck' and Ms Netzach took exception.

I believe it was over the issue of enactments, for she said,

in my experience a mindfuck is about the suspension of disbelief, the introduction of doubt in a situation where you know doubt isn't necessary.

The tension between appearence and prior knowledge "I'm safe" is where faith comes into play, and where things get interesting.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=244070&perpage=25&pagenumber=5
===

To me, 'suspension of disbelief' sounds like a scene in r.l. or what goes on when you see a film. For instance, when a role of someone abandoned is enacted or portrayed, there is an emotion, which N wants to say is quite real, and I don't have a problem with that.

Here is the category I'm thinking of: The word 'actual' was intended to suggest lack of set up, as something would arise in real life. Example. You come home from work, the apartment is empty; there's a note on the fridge. There is no enactment, no 'suspension of belief'' no 'faith' held in the face of apparently inconsistent evidence. The mind(body/mind/feelings) is, in most cases, majorly fucked (distressed). This is actual distress, but we haven't included an erotic aspect.

I am in no way raising the issue of 'reality', and have no interest in grading anyone's experiences. I'm not saying the category I'm trying to define is the best. People choose what they like. Every mindfuck found to be so, by its participants is 'real' and genuine.

Neither am I raising the issue of intensity. In the example above, OSG's reaction (below) is intense, but that's not, I think, always the case with 'actual mindfuck' and it's not a criterion.

Basically, I want to exclude two kinds of things (which isn't to say, who should or shouldn't get off on them, or prefer them) from this category.

1. Anything enacted, esp. by pre-agreement, as in 'guard / prisoner' scenes.

2. Anything relying on straightforward deception or ignorance; one test is, could the scene be repeated, with effect?

What do I want to include? Intentionally produced, eroticized (or eroticizable) mental distress states--fear, despair, self-recrimination, feeling of no value-- as they may arise in the actual course of things (no pre agreement; not 'set up'; hence no 'taking on faith'). {{Distress produced by illegal acts is NOT being considered.}}

The other (top) involved has brought forward his or her actual thoughts and feelings (as opposed to, "I wonder what would happen if..." "It will be a kick to see what happens if I..." ). This might, if stated, be put into words like "For my pleasure, I choose that you undergo the following."

There is implied consent, I assume, or at least the bottom's UNwillingness in the end, to say "On balance this was something I did not want to happen, and said so, and I have only regret that it was imposed on me."


I looked at a couple threads, to see where this idea might be. But generally I find what I'm thinking of is NOT in the threads.

For instance:

The art of the mindfuck
https://forum.literotica.com/...threadid=224786
-----

Originally posted by James G 5
There was a thread somehwere on this topic where I discussed a scene where a lady switch freind & I convinced a bound sub in a knife scene that we had cut her & she was bleeding. For some reason it seemed to upset alot of people
-----

This case, which aroused some reactions, and must've been quite potent, does NOT fit what I'm after.

======
OSG's example. Having expressed extreme distaste for it, which was heard, being called the 'n' word, "'n' whore" etc..

This is the one case, in the thread, which seemed to fit, from p. 1, 8-17-03

=====
=====

Turning to another thread,
Major Mindfucks

https://forum.literotica.com/...threadid=191539

Etoile

I had an incredibly intense mindfuck on Friday night. Daddy started it by tossing out the line "maybe I was wrong about you" which immediately terrified me.
------

While it's complex, somewhat a gray area, it still seems to rely on taking in etoile as to Daddy's feeling she was unworthy; later revealed NOT to be the case. Hence it seems mostly a deception-based mindfuck.
=====

I did find one case, in that thread, which fit the bill:

Fungi Ug:

Mindfucks can also be trapping a slut into a position where she can do no right, and hence will end up getting punished... as an example,, telling her she cannot cum and then making her cum, so she gets no pleasure from it... and then getting to punish her for her failure.
----

To be clear, this isn't like a case some have described where there is *apparently* no way out (and it comes to view, surprisingly). But clearly there is *actually no way out. The former could not be repeated, whereas the latter could.

===
===
From the discussion, both cases were generally thought to be 'extreme' or unrepresentative, which perhaps they are. {{None involved any illegal acts, it may be pointed out.}} I'm not sure of N's opinion of these specific scenes, but she commented on some kinds of scenes, thus:

mindfuck that leaves someone disillusioned and cut off from me has always seemed like a pyrrhic victory at best.

Here she's dealing with the effects of, of aftermath of an incident. Those are always openended. Hard to predict. In any case, it's not by aftermath, primarily, that I distinguish the 'actual mindfuck'. In OSG's example, 'disillusioned and cut off' does not seem to fit. In one way, however, perhaps 'hurt' or even 'traumatized' might.

The general point of N seems to be that one sort of event causes serious damage to the relationship. Given the distress, that it was eroticized; that it is processed at some point, perhaps in terms of NOT being unfair or undeserved, then I'd speculate there's no reason to assume grave, fatal damage to the relationship.

In general, I want to say the 'actual mindfuck' is not just 'extreme'; I want to talk of a difference of kind.

Besides the examples about, for 'actual mindfuck' is an actual degradation scenario. Knowing the bottom's aversion to being 'used' by others, the top setting that up--say, being pissed on, or come on by some strangers.

It seems to me that besides the degradation there is the inevitable "How could the top so 'use' me?" And "I feel degraded etc." Insofar as the bottom has the appropriate 'kink', that degradation would have an erotic component, partly derived from the rather arbitrary, even callous exercise of power.

(It should be made clear that this is NOT a test (of compliance, love), but something that is simply for the pleasure of the top.)

This is a long enough ramble, trying to make things clear in my mind; if it makes sense to anyone else, post your ideas and experiences.

 

[MissTaken]

Where is the thread that this discussion originated?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Oh Pure, too early in the morning for me, but I will return later to it. I would think I agree mostly with what you are saying though. If I understand it correctly in my half asleep state (so I may have got confused here ), you are saying 'actual mindfuck' is not necessarily playing mindgames in that a situation is presented as if it were true, but at some point in the exercise revealed to be playing with the sub/bottom's psyche without actually intending to carry out the expected act....but is saying something is going to happen, or arranging it, which will not be in the realm of what the sub/bottom is expecting or feeling is on the list of things they want to participate in, but never the less will go ahead?

Catalina

 

[MissTaken]

Without reading the original discussion, I would say a mindfuck, "actual" or otherwise is anything that happens to cause a sub to believe something is occuring regardless of whether consent was given or not.

Possibly a kidnapping complete with the element of surprise, two strangers showing up at work and taking the blindfolded sub in the trunk of their car to a place where she is fucked repeatedly and then, when the blindfold is removed, she finds her Master there.

But also, those times when we convince the submissive of something and/or evoking the feelings consistent with an act, whether or not it is happening.

Like catalina, will have to give this more thought and am very interested in the original discussion.

 

[Pure]

Hi Miss T (note to Catalina)

While in some ways, I did manage to get across this idea to you, I must correct the following impression; I don't know where it comes from. I have added two sentences, however, to the initial posting.

Ms T: [Perhaps an actual mindfuck is]
Possibly a kidnapping complete with the element of surprise, two strangers showing up at work and taking the blindfolded sub in the trunk of their car to a place where she is fucked repeatedly and then, when the blindfold is removed, she finds her Master there.

There were three examples above: one from OSG; one from Fungi; and one from me. These were to help clarify the idea. In none of them were criminal or illegal acts committed. I don't make postings counselling commission of crimes. Only in the context of fantasies and works of literature, do I discuss [imagined] crimes, and in this thread the term 'actual', referring to non-enacted events of real life, would direct the thread away from imaginings.

I hope this removes any misunderstandings. Please excuse any clumsiness in how the posting was originally worded.



J.

Hi Catalina: It seems you are in the process of 'getting' what I'm trying to say. Probably some statements were confusing. I don't think raising apprehensions by mentioning future events, would be called 'actual mindfuck', if indeed the top never intends that they will happen (i.e., it's ONLY an attempt to scare).

Thanks for responding.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hi Catalina: It seems you are in the process of 'getting' what I'm trying to say. Probably some statements were confusing. I don't think raising apprehensions by mentioning future events, would be called 'actual mindfuck', if indeed the top never intends that they will happen (i.e., it's ONLY an attempt to scare).

Thanks for responding.

Thanks for clarifying...have to agree it is the ultimate mindfuck, both good and bad at times. Do you see it having a possible way of being reversed on the dominant, backfire of sorts (unless he is also capable of enjoying it), if the sub/slave then finds a way to adjust their mindset quickly and embrace and even possibly triumph in the situation? (as is probably obvious, I am still not awake enough today)

Catalina

 

[Shadowsdream]

mind fuck

I returned home one afternoon after having enjoyed a lovely day in the city. I had left My slave home with a long list of chores to complete.

When he greeted Me at the door with his big happy smile I wiped it off of his face with a firm resounding slap. he dropped to his knees stunned at the unexpected and painful greeting.

I did not speak or smile. I knew that he was emotionally in turmoil...what could he have done to piss Me off? Yet at the same time he was turned on both with fear and apprehension.

When he tried to speak I silenced him with a cold unemotional voice and directed him to remove My boots. I walked past him as though he did not exist and went directly to the phone and called another Domme. When I was certain he had figured out who I was speaking to I closed the door so that he could not hear the conversation....

his imagination was going wild...he was uncertain...ashamed without knowing why...afraid I was about to dismiss him...and no matter how hard he tried to think about what caused My unexpected behaviour he could not find the reason.

he had completed every chore...and then some...prepared a lovely meal and gotten only a slap and a cold attitude...

his mind was completely fucked...

WHY? There was no reason...it just felt right in the moment.
Hours later I told him he had done a good job with the tasks and the dinner...no explanation until days later when he had the courage to ask...then he was told..."because I felt like it"

That simple mind fuck has taken him to many fantasy scenerios now when W/we are apart.

mind fucks can be incredibly simple or very complex.

 

[Pure]

SD thanks for the illustration. It sounds right on the money. Just to clarify the way I understand your example. It's an actual event, with an actual effect. It took place because you decided arbirtrarily to be harsh, and to unsettle.

This is NOT like a case, though, where a top says to her/himself "I'm going to pretend to be angry about something not specified. That will unsettle him/her (bottom). .... But of course I'll let them find out later I wasn't really, and they'll be relieved, and we'll be extra close."

 

[Shadowsdream]

SD thanks for the illustration. It sounds right on the money. Just to clarify the way I understand your example. It's an actual event, with an actual effect. It took place because you decided arbirtrarily to be harsh, and to unsettle.

This is NOT like a case, though, where a top says to her/himself "I'm going to pretend to be angry about something not specified. That will unsettle him/her (bottom). .... But of course I'll let them find out later I wasn't really, and they'll be relieved, and we'll be extra close."

Actual event with an actual effect.

One of many.

Not subtle yet not extreme...still effective and to this day he is still left wondering...and if I know him...craving the next mind fuck in a love hate kind of way.

 

[Pure]

[deleted].

 

[shy slave]

I have read this thread several times trying to get my mind around it.

In my work I have played 'mindfuck' games that do not fit into the premise laid out by Pure.

For example leading a person down a route where they have no choice but to admit error, and by the time they figure out where the conversation is going they cannot think fast enough to retract.

In that situation, it is, as N said "pyrric victory at best"
but can be useful in some settings.
~~~~~
Mindfucks in D/s appear to have the element of danger for both Dom & sub.

The Dom must always trust their ability to bring the sub back to them ~ as in Etoilles' example ~ if Daddy had not been able to re-assure her at the time and later, it may have put long term doubt into her mind. Thus affecting her trust for Daddy.

In Fungiugs' example ~ where the sub cannot 'please' the Dom whatever they do ~ then, for that moment in time, is there an incentive for the sub to 'try and be good?'

Shadowsdream must have trust in Herself and Her abilities (which before I am not questioning) that she knew Her slave sufficiently well to play such mind games and be forgiven by him for playing such games.

(Mmm do you think that if The Dom/Mme over plays the mind fuck the sub has the choice to forgive them or not. If they don't, or can't, what then?).

The danger for the sub is that if the Dom over plays the mind fuck it can leave the sub alone, confused & hurt without a way of overcoming those feelings; despite reassurance from the Dom.

Mind fucks that leave a sub reeling and not knowing when & if it will happen again; could be seen as both emotional abuse and an abuse of a Doms' power and commitment to care for the sub.

Having said all that, there is for me, something wildly erotic about mind fucks.
The not knowing what is to happen next, or if I am to be punished for being unable to please Him as in Fungiugs' and Shadowsdream examples.

IMHO As an actual event with an actual effect it depends on the both the event and the effect as to whether it crosses the bounderies of consent to non-consent.

Can anyone person really understand their sub/slave/partner to the point that unbalancing them on a mental or emotional level; for however brief a moment in time is safe?
The short term effect and relief that it was a 'mind fuck' can have nasty knock-on effects.
The mind fuck may unintentionally bring up long forgotten past issues that have never been an problem before, or undermine a sub's self-belief and confidence as a person who serves their Master.

I consider myself a strong person, but I know could not cope with the mindfuck Etoilles' Daddy played.
It would upset me so very much and play on my mind long after he had explained or stated why He did it. I know it would dent my self-confidence and make me question my position who and want I am.

I very much admire Etoille for being able to cope with such mind games and still care, love and trust Daddy


Thanks Pure for starting such a good thread to think about.

 

[Pure]

Shy said, "Mind fucks that leave a sub reeling and not knowing when & if it will happen again; could be seen as both emotional abuse and an abuse of a Doms' power and commitment to care for the sub."

On 'not knowing.' OTOH, if you know every friday night, the top is going to say "Maybe I should dump you," for an hour or so, then make up. That's not much of a mindfuck is it?

So what makes something 'abuse'? Are any of the examples, abuse? I know everyone says the answer is obvious, but when it gets down to specifics...

PS:
Etoiles Daddy is not a 'he'.

 

[shy slave]

Etoiles i am sorry what an idiot i am for getting it wrong

Hope I didn't offend you xx

Your right Pure if something happens every friday night the same way, its damn annoying but not a mind fuck!

To me abuse is something that occurs when the deliberate intention is too cause emotional, mental or physical pain, that cannot be overcome, and is not at the consent of the receiver.

This is a personal viewpoint of abuse.
There is a document in UK by Dept of Health calld 'NO SECRETS' which deals with 'What is Abuse.'

Hope this link works

http://www.dh.gov.uk/PublicationsAn...rsArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4003726&chk=L/fFc/

 

[Pure]

shy, that link doesnt work, except to get to the cover page. however i'm quite familiar with the spouse abuse issue. below are some sample definitions from a quick search of the net.

I think you'll find it quite unclear whether and how any of the 'mindfuck' examples being offered might fit. care to take a stab at it? in accord with example 3, which examples constitute 'emotional maltreatment'?

you might note that most abuse consellors and researchers set aside 'consent' as a (negative) criterion. (consent does NOT overrule(negate, prevent) a finding or legal action regarding abuse.)


[Example 1]
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/cb951/page1.html

How Is Spouse Abuse Defined?

Marital abuse is the misuse of power and control. It's an attempt to coerce and control one's spouse through emotional and/or physical means. Specific physical examples include slapping, scratching, biting, kicking, shoving, choking, hitting, sexual assault, stabbing, and shooting. But in some cases, no physical assault or battery is involved.

Subtle verbal attacks and violations of dignity are often enough to intimidate and control. Extended periods of silence or uninvolvement, glares, name-calling, and excessive criticism can be sufficient to dominate a spouse. In the most severe cases, a combination of both emotional and physical abuse are involved.

There are many degrees of abuse. All marital relationships experience at least subtle forms of controlling behavior. Yet at some point, reasonable and fair-minded people recognize that when controlling behavior becomes excessive, it requires intervention.

Marital relationships are not above the law. There are criminal statutes against willful endangerment. Many states are developing specific domestic violence legislation to assist in the enforcement of the assault and battery that threatens a growing number of homes.
----
[Example 2]
government of Kentucky

http://gov.state.ky.us/domviol/reprting.htm


abuse means the infliction of physical pain, mental injury, or injury of an adult.
----
[Example 3]

madigan army medical center
http://www.mamc.amedd.army.mil/Referral/guidelines/socialwork_spouseabuse.htm
Spouse Abuse Referral Guideline

Diagnosis/Definition

Spouse abuse is an assault, a battery, a threat to injure or kill, or any other unlawful act of violent, sexual or emotional maltreatment inflicted against one's spouse.
-----

 

[shy slave]

Pure

I have posted directly after this as well.

Sorry that link only takes you to the front page of the document.
The document outlines a definition of abuse:

NO SECRETS 2.5 Abuse is the violation of an individual's human and civil rights by another person or persons.

It further states 2.6 Abuse may consist of a single act or repeated acts.....to which he or she has not consented, or cannot consent
As in the article from Kentucky it defines types of abuse.

It also relates to vulnerable persons who are at risk of abuse2.3....unable to protect him or herself against significant harm or exploitation

Consent is a difficult one to argue. for every case of consent or implied consent ~ if you offer your arm out for an injection but do not speak its implied you are agrreeing to take the shot~ there is a case for lack of consent.

In UK consent is a grey area and affects many people with learning disabilities etc (a whole different topic!).


In the case of mindfucks it could be said that there is implied consent.

If the D/s is on the non-legal basis of safe, sane, consentual (has that ever been upheld in law in UK / US /Europe?) then it does not go into the circle of abuse as outlined in the marital abuse link.

Both Shadowsdream & Etioles played on the fear of rejection.

There is a tension building in Shadowsdream example, Her slave spend time wondering why and trying to rationalise it, however the "abusive incident" was not completly unexpected. The penance, end part of the cycle did not end with Shadowsdream promising not to re-abuse.

In Etoiles mind fuck Daddy preyed on her fears of the possiblity of being rejected through words not actions. Again the circle was not taken in full, the tension build up was not there, Daddy went straight into the 'abuse incident' followed by explanation ie 'penance.'

Abuse can be a range of action, communication and non-communication.

In Pure's example 3 the meaning of 'emotional maltreatment' is not defined making it amibiguous at best.

(Does anyone know if there is a legal definition of maltreatment)

If you believe that a sub/slave can protect themselves from harm or significant harm, (safe words, trust, communication, contracts etc) and most subs who post on here are very strong personalities who have chosen this lifestyle, then they do not constitute a vulnerable adult persay.

However if the mind fuck was so extreme (as Etoile's would have been for me), that it affected a slave afterwards in a negative way and undermined their own self - belief; were they at that point a vulnerable person because emotionally they could not protect themselves?

James G 5 who made a sub think she was subject to knives is IMHO abuse.

This is because tied and bound the sub had no way of knowing what was happening ( I know that is sometimes a wonderful thing). The introduction of a switch friend, who the sub may not know well, adds an additional dimension of trust.
James then exploited the sub's fear of knives for his own enjoyment. It has all the elements of the abuse cycle ~ tension build-up, abuse incident & penance.
When a sub is used by a Dom and others they rely totally on being kept safe by the Dom.
This did not occur in James example.
Therefore IMO this is beyond a mind fuck. The reason behind a fear of knives is not clear, but this 'game' could have long-term psychological damage.

Without knowing more about James example it is difficult to assess how much fear the sub had and if James was able to support them fully afterwards.

I wonder if the sub trusts James as much or if they have moved on?

Playing on someone's fears to the extent of fear remaining long after the event is emotional maltreatment ~ abuse.

In all other examples there are differing types of emotional game playing.

It goes back to the Dom knowing the sub and having the confidence to re-assure them that it is over.

In my earlier post i asked:

"do you think that if The Dom/Mme over plays the mind fuck the sub has the choice to forgive them or not. If they don't, or can't, what then?"

If everytime Shadowsdream went out Her slave thought he was going to go through the same mind fuck and it frightened him it may then be seen as emotional maltreatment.
Or if Fungiugs sub decided there was no pleasure in ever trying to please, and as a result became lonely, isolated and introverted then again it may be seen as emotional maltreatment.

IMHO There is no right or wrong answer to when a mind fuck becomes abuse it is down to the individuals involved. Everyone has limits ~ both Dom and sub need to know what the other is capable of to make the mid fuck scary, fearful and pleasurable.

 

[shy slave]

An apology

I confess I have enjoyed wrapping my brain cells around this issue of mind fuck, consent and abuse.

I hope my previous response has not upset any of the people who chose to post their experiences.

Using your experience as examples was not intended to upset or criticise in any way. It was a way of me trying to work out the differing levels and how it may or may not be perceived by others.

Please either post here or PM me if you think I was out-of-line.

Pure this is your thread and I realise it has gone slightly off 'mind fuck' into other issues.

Hope your ok with that, but hey you started it

If you have got any other areas that can get me thinking then I am ready

 

[Etoile]

Lots to respond to in this thread! I will try to take it bit by bit.

2. Anything relying on straightforward deception or ignorance; one test is, could the scene be repeated, with effect?

What do I want to include? Intentionally produced, eroticized (or eroticizable) mental distress states--fear, despair, self-recrimination, feeling of no value--
[snip]
While it's complex, somewhat a gray area, it still seems to rely on taking in etoile as to Daddy's feeling she was unworthy; later revealed NOT to be the case. Hence it seems mostly a deception-based mindfuck.

Ah, but the scene could be easily repeated. So I would say that even though it was based on deception, it does fit your criterion #2. It was absolutely intentionally-produced mental distress, which I think Daddy probably found erotic.

Besides the examples about, for 'actual mindfuck' is an actual degradation scenario. Knowing the bottom's aversion to being 'used' by others, the top setting that up--say, being pissed on, or come on by some strangers.

It seems to me that besides the degradation there is the inevitable "How could the top so 'use' me?" And "I feel degraded etc." Insofar as the bottom has the appropriate 'kink', that degradation would have an erotic component, partly derived from the rather arbitrary, even callous exercise of power.

(It should be made clear that this is NOT a test (of compliance, love), but something that is simply for the pleasure of the top.)

I would also say that there was a substantial element of degradation and "how could I have been so used" in my situation. What my Daddy said - "maybe I was wrong about you" - would definitely indicate this. And yes, afterward there was definitely a realization on my part that this was just a callous exercise of power.

 

[Pure]

shy, threads aren't owned; the most one can do is set a stage and offer a few prods. the public is welcome.

your last posting was excellent, and I'll have to think it over before responding.

 

[Etoile]

The Dom must always trust their ability to bring the sub back to them ~ as in Etoilles' example ~ if Daddy had not been able to re-assure her at the time and later, it may have put long term doubt into her mind. Thus affecting her trust for Daddy.

I consider myself a strong person, but I know could not cope with the mindfuck Etoilles' Daddy played.
It would upset me so very much and play on my mind long after he had explained or stated why He did it. I know it would dent my self-confidence and make me question my position who and want I am.

I very much admire Etoille for being able to cope with such mind games and still care, love and trust Daddy

Thank you, shy slave. I think you are absolutely right about it being critical that the top can "bring back" the sub. A mindfuck shouldn't be permanent, IMO. It shouldn't undermine the basic trust that two people have in each other.

I think if Daddy had ended it with "ha ha, just kidding" then I would have been much more deeply scarred. But the way it ended was such a release of tension, a flooding of relief, and overwhelming proof of love, that I wasn't damaged by it. While it was going on, I had absolutely no idea it was a game. I believed it completely, which I think is also important in a mindfuck, and is part of why the "kidnapping" scenes aren't "real" mindfucks.

 

[Etoile]

Etoiles i am sorry what an idiot i am for getting it wrong

Hope I didn't offend you xx

No offense taken at all, and you're not an idiot. In fact, I read your sentence more like what you would have done if that had happened with your Dominant. You made the common assumption upon seeing the word "Daddy" and that's okay. Now you know the rest of the picture. (Check out the Spivak pronouns thread if you want more info on how I describe my Daddy - there's a link in my sig.)

 

[Pure]

Hi shy,

I'm looking over my earlier attempt:

What do I want to include? Intentionally produced, eroticized (or eroticizable) mental distress states--fear, despair, self-recrimination, feeling of no value-- as they may arise in the actual course of things (no pre agreement; not 'set up'; hence no 'taking on faith'). {{Distress produced by illegal acts is NOT being considered.}}

The other (top) involved has brought forward his or her actual thoughts and feelings (as opposed to, "I wonder what would happen if..." "It will be a kick to see what happens if I..." ). This might, if stated, be put into words like "For my pleasure, I choose that you undergo the following."

In terms of 'abuse', I see a good parallel of 'actual physical acts,' e.g., beatings and the 'actual mindfuck.'

Violating civil or human rights, said your source. Well you have a right not to have five stripes raised on your ass. In some of the examples, the persons sense of worth or worthiness, as it were, takes a beating: that's a human rights violation.

What makes the thing odd, even incomprehensible, is that one or both are eroticizing a physical or psychic pain.

In both cases, the injury is supposed to be one from which the bottom recovers. Stripes vanish. Sense of worth is restored.

As to the top's 'duty' {to actively re-assure}, that I'm not sure of. Healing occurs if someone is left w/o further injury.

It been proposed that Sade have a remarkable salve which could heal the effects of whip strands studded with nails. In any case, the point is that, perhaps in the future, one wants a fresh playing field. In that sense, the top's ministrations are simply preparation for further cruelty.

J.

 

[Shadowsdream]

A smile...a soft touch...is the cure...the healing...the joy...restored

Mind fucks that have value and keep the edge on a relationship that DESIRES the edge...are easily brought back into safety.

Pushing bounderies that reside in the darkness of needs is the salve that heals uncertainties and the power to have the confidence and intellect to know when where why and how to fuck with Your submisive or slave is the reality that resides in an established relationship.

There is a feeling in the gut of this Domme that the mind fuck comes out of nowhere...is just..right..for the moment and situation. Visions of conversations and observations over months and years of compatibility feed Me with the knowledge of the impact of the mind fuck of the moment. Being able to read the body and emotions of My slave keeps him in a safe place even when he is stunned and fearful and uncertain. his trust in Me keeps him emotionally safe for he has the knowledge deeply ingrained that what ever I do to him...will in the long run deepen his submission to Me.

Mind fucks and how they impact one relationship over another are difficult to judge until and unless you know the parties involved. Generalities do not fit well when the conversation is mind fucks.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Is a mind fuck abusive? Plain and simply...yes it is, to people who do not understand how wonderful it feels or refuse to feel it in a good way.
I dont think there is a damned thing you could pick that someone someplace would consider abusive. Thats what makes us individual. If it feels bad you dont belong in it. A mind fuck can put me in that place i love to be faster then a 3 hour pain session and much more intensely at times. Its all about what floats your own individual boat, has nothing to do with who perceives it as abusive or non abusive.

 

[Pure]

Is abusiveness in the eye of the beholder only. many bdsm community members essentially say 'yes', as does KC.

At the same time, objective definitions of abuse are used in spouse, elder, and child abuse cases.

As regards a mindfuck, to take an example: prolonged efforts to lower and remove any self esteem and self respect might, after some point (perhaps early) be consented to: "yes, i'm unworthy, and you may remind me of it."

If one appeals to an objective test of mental functioning, one might look at whether the person can hold a job, or interact with others. E.g., is self respect so impaired, and self flagellation so constant that the person can't work; breaks down in tears a lot, can't take any criticism of work, etc.

This latter case might well qualify as abuse, under an objective approach, regardless of statements made by the (uncomprehending) 'victim'.

NOTE: the issue of 'actual' is not raised, directly, above; but if one 'sadistically' as it were, felt inclined to lower another's self esteem, and did so, and wasn't enacting a preagreed scene, testing (does s/he love me), shamming (what reaction might I get if...), etc., that would be an 'actual mindfuck' as defined originally.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

There is a feeling in the gut of this Domme that the mind fuck comes out of nowhere...is just..right..for the moment and situation. Visions of conversations and observations over months and years of compatibility feed Me with the knowledge of the impact of the mind fuck of the moment. Being able to read the body and emotions of My slave keeps him in a safe place even when he is stunned and fearful and uncertain. his trust in Me keeps him emotionally safe for he has the knowledge deeply ingrained that what ever I do to him...will in the long run deepen his submission to Me.

This is one of the things I Love so much about mindfuck.
You have to really know the other and in a way that is more complex and multidimensional, I believe, than knowing their body. (They go together of course. ) When I first read the first line of this post it struck me as more of that 'dom/me as telepath' type of thing. Reading on, and thinking, it depends on what type of player you are, doesn't it? There seem to be those for whom how the sub is feeling is either irrelevant or just icing on the cake. For others, eliciting feelings and reactions in the sub is what the game is about. I almost see it in terms of pulling out or putting in. Either one is just as much about what the dom wants. Mindfuck seems like more of a dance to do it well.