Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[lil_slave_rose]

No-one is telling you that you are wrong, just trying to get you to see the other views....and it has nothing to do with PC, it has to do with lifestyle choices. I am also an opinionated bitch as I'm sure many around here will tell you, but once again, that has nothing to do with it. We don't scene either as a rule, most what we do is spur of the moment as we both hate planning anything, even the mundane necessities of life. As to isololation being a red flag...it can be where non consensual abuse is happening, but it can also mean it is not. Take me for instance...he suggests I should get out more, I should socialise more (like he can talk ), and I beg him to leave me be as I really don't want to and never have in all my life, so why start now?

I have been abused and I have worked with abuse survivors and I can assure you I do not consider myself as being abused. The difference lies in that it is behaviour and mindset I have willingly consented to, and also looked for, and also it is what I have wanted to live for a very long time. I would look right stupid if after going on a very specific search for a life partner who would share this type relationship with me, I now said I was being abused...especially as I am not. When you speak of stereotyping that vanillas see us as, you are right, because they are operating from what they see as love, what makes them happy, what they believe should happen in a relationship, not what happens in an SM relationship because it is wanted and desired. Most people in the mainstream who do not share SM desires, or even D/s desires and needs, are never going to understand how SM is OK and not abusive because it doesn't fit their stereotypical image of love as being always nice and giving, considerate of your partner and above all else, acceptable. We don't chose that stereotype, otherwise we would be still in the vanilla pool.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/382685004_3ab0fcf2a9_t.jpg Catalina

cat, there is no doubt in my mind that you are not being abused. maybe my issue is the fact that osg says she's being abused and i just don't understand how you consent to abuse. abuse comes from someone who is a Domineering asshat, not a Dominant. atleast, that's my opinion. and abuse is usually not about 'consenting' or loving,valuing, respecting, or cherishing the partner, it's about something much more dark inside the abuser, it's about 'power' and not power that was 'given' 'exchanged' etc...power that is taken to prove (usually to himself) that He is the almighty. and abuse, in my eyes, is degrading, and breaks you to the point that you have no self worth, you see yourself through his eyes, you are nothing because he says and makes you feel that way. if she feels loved, cherished, valued, and respected, then how she is being abused? maybe that's my issue with the whole thing......she used the word abused and in my eyes, if she truly is happy in the way he treats her and it makes her feel valued, loved, etc..then it's not abuse, in my eyes...yea i think that's what i'm trying to say. *shrugs* i'm running on very little sleep.....

 

[lil_slave_rose]

As I have said before rose, I am sure after you both live under the same roof for awhile, you will begin to see what some of us are saying. You may not choose to go to the extremes some do, but I doubt all you find unacceptable now will remain so forever, and not because MP forces you in any way but because you make a choice once you see how your desires and feelings grow.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/382622317_6b70a5a419_t.jpg Catalina

i'm not sure what me and Him living 24/7 has to do with anything. i KNOW that things change, i've said this before. my limits have changed just in the 3 years since we started our relationship. as an example, nipple clamps were something i once said i WOULD NOT do, now? i love them. so again i'm not sure why you think us living 24/7 will make a difference in anything....i'm well aware of the fact that things change, and never said they didn't, but i also know that i would never and yes i said NEVER consent to being abused. i've been abused, and i will not go there again, luckily He feels the same way as i do and so it's not an issue, and if i'm happy, if i still feel loved, valued, cherished and respected at the end of the day, then i am not being abused.....

 

[catalina_francisco]

i'm not sure what me and Him living 24/7 has to do with anything. i KNOW that things change, i've said this before. my limits have changed just in the 3 years since we started our relationship. as an example, nipple clamps were something i once said i WOULD NOT do, now? i love them. so again i'm not sure why you think us living 24/7 will make a difference in anything....i'm well aware of the fact that things change, and never said they didn't, but i also know that i would never and yes i said NEVER consent to being abused. i've been abused, and i will not go there again, luckily He feels the same way as i do and so it's not an issue, and if i'm happy, if i still feel loved, valued, cherished and respected at the end of the day, then i am not being abused.....

I guess to me it is like in vanilla or mainstream romances in which you date, you can be engaged, but living in the same house 24/7 is another world and quite often does very little to resemble the picture you had in your head it would be like. I feel all those things you mentioned, and I also think osg does too, but I do think the way I feel it differs from how you mean you feel it. It is not better or worse, right or wrong, it is just different and it is one of those things some of us see the difference in with many who live apart and those who live together, and also see the difference occur when people, including ourselves, move from one realm to the other.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/382809821_374c97a189_t.jpg Catalina

 

[callinectes]

It took days of mulling over this thread and a couple of others to wrap my head around these types of relationships. At first I was appalled, worried for those in them, and horrified. I think a great deal of my reaction can be chalked up to being only a few months into my first D/s relationship and spending too much time reading "romantic" D/s and BDSM websites.

It finally dawned on me that OSG, Cat, and others really are consenting, they are mentally stable, and are happy. Who can judge that? I did, and made some rather harsh comments that I now regret.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It took days of mulling over this thread and a couple of others to wrap my head around these types of relationships. At first I was appalled, worried for those in them, and horrified. I think a great deal of my reaction can be chalked up to being only a few months into my first D/s relationship and spending too much time reading "romantic" D/s and BDSM websites.

It finally dawned on me that OSG, Cat, and others really are consenting, they are mentally stable, and are happy. Who can judge that? I did, and made some rather harsh comments that I now regret.

No need to feel bad...we have all made judgements and statements here that later we see in a different light and regret on some level...it is a matter of timing IMHO. Best thing is we do learn and we do begin to see how we are all different and on a journey which is uniquely our own.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/382685004_3ab0fcf2a9_t.jpg Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I guess to me it is like in vanilla or mainstream romances in which you date, you can be engaged, but living in the same house 24/7 is another world and quite often does very little to resemble the picture you had in your head it would be like. I feel all those things you mentioned, and I also think osg does too, but I do think the way I feel it differs from how you mean you feel it. It is not better or worse, right or wrong, it is just different and it is one of those things some of us see the difference in with many who live apart and those who live together, and also see the difference occur when people, including ourselves, move from one realm to the other.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/157/382809821_374c97a189_t.jpg Catalina

for some reason i get the feeling that you think my ideas will change when we become 24/7....and my opinions on abuse will not change simply because we become 24/7. we've been together for 3 years, that's a long time. i know what He expects of me, and i have no 'romanticized idea' of the way it will be once we are living together. so i'm not sure why this is relevant here. but again as i said, if i am feeling loved, cherished, valued, and respected at the end of the day.t.hen i am not being abused. my issue, that i just realized with what osg said is that to me, she is not being abused if this is the way she wants it. to me abuse is NEVER an 'ok' thing. if she is ok with her Dom coming home from work after a long hard day and punching her in the face simply because he can, and she says he does it because he loves her, because he can or whatever, if she is not feeliing degraded, unloved, undervalued, or disrespected, then she is NOT being abused. and the fact that she continues to say she is abused when she's not, is what is confusing me. there is never consent with abuse, there is not love, or respect in an abusive relationship.

 

[catalina_francisco]

for some reason i get the feeling that you think my ideas will change when we become 24/7....and my opinions on abuse will not change simply because we become 24/7. we've been together for 3 years, that's a long time. i know what He expects of me, and i have no 'romanticized idea' of the way it will be once we are living together. so i'm not sure why this is relevant here. but again as i said, if i am feeling loved, cherished, valued, and respected at the end of the day.t.hen i am not being abused. my issue, that i just realized with what osg said is that to me, she is not being abused if this is the way she wants it. to me abuse is NEVER an 'ok' thing. if she is ok with her Dom coming home from work after a long hard day and punching her in the face simply because he can, and she says he does it because he loves her, because he can or whatever, if she is not feeliing degraded, unloved, undervalued, or disrespected, then she is NOT being abused. and the fact that she continues to say she is abused when she's not, is what is confusing me. there is never consent with abuse, there is not love, or respect in an abusive relationship.

I think the problem is semantics. I have felt the same as you do about the usage of the word abuse, but it doesn't bother me enough to feel it is cause for concern because I understand a little better the difference in how we all understand and relate to it. I do think the mindset matters, and it is also sometimes difficult to convey that feeling. We have been 24/7 under the one roof for 4 1/2 years, and I can honestly say my ideas on many things are still changing....it is a progression of how you experience things, and how those experiences open up thoughts and feelings you never thought possible even 6 months ago. Despite that, in the beginning I was very like you in thinking that it could never happen in a very large degree, but it has and it continues to for both of us.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/376675788_f2e2be5814_t.jpg Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

rose, we all define abuse differently, as we've seen recently on the various threads regarding the subject. for you, abuse is the anti-love, and anti-consent. i do not define abuse by consent or love. and in my relationship, my Master's abuse is an expression of his love. for a certain sort of sadistic Dominant-type, abusive treatment is their equivalent to the vanilla "d*mn, i love you." now, because this is the sort of relationship i need, because i love and worship my Master, because i gave myself to him 6+ years ago as his property to use as he willed...does that mean that i am always happy? never depressed, never suffer, am never degraded and yes, even abused? that i never succumb to self-pity or fear? of course not. but i accept those things as a part of life, and neither myself nor my Master have ever accepted the romanticized vision of M/s which states that a slave must always be happy and joyful, that a Master must always be kind and considerate, that things must never be pushed too far.

you keep insisting that your views on this will not change as things change and grow in your own relationship, and perhaps they won't. but speaking from experience i can tell you how surprised you would be at how values, beliefs, even firmly held convictions can change completely once you live this life "24/7." i would be embarassed to share here some of the views i formerly had...some of the things i swore with every fiber of my being were NOT right, or would NEVER happen to me. now i've learned to just hush up and listen regarding such things because with time (and a sufficiently wise, deviant Master) all things are possible.

 

[Netzach]

I think the problem is semantics. I have felt the same as you do about the usage of the word abuse, but it doesn't bother me enough to feel it is cause for concern because I understand a little better the difference in how we all understand and relate to it. I do think the mindset matters, and it is also sometimes difficult to convey that feeling. We have been 24/7 under the one roof for 4 1/2 years, and I can honestly say my ideas on many things are still changing....it is a progression of how you experience things, and how those experiences open up thoughts and feelings you never thought possible even 6 months ago. Despite that, in the beginning I was very like you in thinking that it could never happen in a very large degree, but it has and it continues to for both of us.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/376675788_f2e2be5814_t.jpg Catalina

It's a little like the concept of "rape" within a relationship when there's a mutual agreement that rape cannot exist in the relationship, one in which A can have B on demand.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I think the problem is semantics. I have felt the same as you do about the usage of the word abuse, but it doesn't bother me enough to feel it is cause for concern because I understand a little better the difference in how we all understand and relate to it. I do think the mindset matters, and it is also sometimes difficult to convey that feeling. We have been 24/7 under the one roof for 4 1/2 years, and I can honestly say my ideas on many things are still changing....it is a progression of how you experience things, and how those experiences open up thoughts and feelings you never thought possible even 6 months ago. Despite that, in the beginning I was very like you in thinking that it could never happen in a very large degree, but it has and it continues to for both of us.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/376675788_f2e2be5814_t.jpg Catalina

cat, i don't understand what it is you think will change for me when we become 24/7..could you explain a little more please? i KNOW that things i once thought unacceptable will become acceptable. it's already happened in the three years we've been together and we're not living it 24/7 yet. but if you are talking about my idea on abuse, i know, and can promise you, it will not change, i will not 'allow' myself to be put in an abusive relationship, ever. i think you are failing to see that my definition and your definition of abuse are the same. i've gone back over the whole thread and everything we've both said on the subject of abuse coincide. consent being a big part of it, but for some reason we continue to have disagreements over something we agree on? lol. and yes, it does come down to semantics, which is what i realized in the last post that i posted to you. the fact that she says she's being abused, is what i had an issue with and didn't realize it, not that she was actually being abused, because in MY definition of abuse, osg is NOT being abused....it took me a few posts to realize why i reacted the way i did.

 

[ownedsubgal]

It's a little like the concept of "rape" within a relationship when there's a mutual agreement that rape cannot exist in the relationship, one in which A can have B on demand.

that's a good analogy. i can understand fully that between Catalina and Francisco there can be no abuse, because abuse implies lack of consent or an infringement of one's rights, and there is no such thing when it comes to a Master's treatment of their slave. for a long time i held a similar view, until my Master taught me to really look at words and understand their meanings, and forget their connotations or implications.

now the difference between "rape" as it's defined, and "abuse," is that lack of consent is specifically mentioned as a requirement for rape, whereas there is no such requirement for abuse. my Master cannot rape me because i have given him consent to do whatever he wills with me, for the rest of my life. however he can abuse me, despite my consent, because he can still (intentionally) cause me harm, injury, damage, of a physical, emotional, or psychological nature.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

rose, we all define abuse differently, as we've seen recently on the various threads regarding the subject. for you, abuse is the anti-love, and anti-consent. i do not define abuse by consent or love. and in my relationship, my Master's abuse is an expression of his love. for a certain sort of sadistic Dominant-type, abusive treatment is their equivalent to the vanilla "d*mn, i love you." now, because this is the sort of relationship i need, because i love and worship my Master, because i gave myself to him 6+ years ago as his property to use as he willed...does that mean that i am always happy? never depressed, never suffer, am never degraded and yes, even abused? that i never succumb to self-pity or fear? of course not. but i accept those things as a part of life, and neither myself nor my Master have ever accepted the romanticized vision of M/s which states that a slave must always be happy and joyful, that a Master must always be kind and considerate, that things must never be pushed too far.

you keep insisting that your views on this will not change as things change and grow in your own relationship, and perhaps they won't. but speaking from experience i can tell you how surprised you would be at how values, beliefs, even firmly held convictions can change completely once you live this life "24/7." i would be embarassed to share here some of the views i formerly had...some of the things i swore with every fiber of my being were NOT right, or would NEVER happen to me. now i've learned to just hush up and listen regarding such things because with time (and a sufficiently wise, deviant Master) all things are possible.

well, Master and i hold the same opinions on this issue, and i've been abused before and i can promise you, that a year, two years, even six years down the road, i will still have the same view on abuse that i do now. i'm a survivor of abuse and i will NOT EVER be in that type of relationship again, i've come to far, pulling myself up out of that hole that he put me in, to ever let anyone put me back down in it. now, do i think that i will be happy go lucky all of the time??? hell no! and i don't know where i've ever implied that. i don't have the 'romanticized idea' of the lifestyle either, but i do know that Master loves me, and would not cause harm to me that could seriously change my life and make so that i could not function in day to day life. will i get 'punished'? you damn well better believe it. i already have been punished and yes it was in 'real life' but in punishing me i know that he loves me. will He ever just come home from work one day and because He's had a bad day, punch me in the face and then when i'm on the ground, start kicking me in the ribs? no, He won't because he doesn't view this as something He has the right to do and He wouldn't like Himself much if He became that person. not to mention He would lose my trust, if not lose me all together. that's just not the kind of person He is.

it bothers me that so many in a 24/7 living together type relationship seem to think that i don't realize the things that will change when we go to living together. i have been 24/7 since about half way into our relationship. no, not living together, but in the submissive mindset every single day all day. everything i do, i consider what He would want me to do , and id o that way, i ask His advice before i buy anything (even mundane stupid shit like a pair of jeans) i ask His advice sometimes even before posting what i have to say on here. so i know what it's all about, and i am well aware that my limits will be pushed, and that i will not always be happy about things He tells me to do, but i will do them anyway, while grumbling under my breath, and anyone who c an say they do everything their Master/Dom's tell them to without sometimes grumbling about it, in my opinion, are not being very honest.

 

[Netzach]

that's a good analogy. i can understand fully that between Catalina and Francisco there can be no abuse, because abuse implies lack of consent or an infringement of one's rights, and there is no such thing when it comes to a Master's treatment of their slave. for a long time i held a similar view, until my Master taught me to really look at words and understand their meanings, and forget their connotations or implications.

now the difference between "rape" as it's defined, and "abuse," is that lack of consent is specifically mentioned as a requirement for rape, whereas there is no such requirement for abuse. my Master cannot rape me because i have given him consent to do whatever he wills with me, for the rest of my life. however he can abuse me, despite my consent, because he can still (intentionally) cause me harm, injury, damage, of a physical, emotional, or psychological nature.

osg, I think I can dig it. Oddly enough because I'm pretty flexible with language.

I know that 9/10ths of the people on here who say "I'm a Sadist" would fail the clinical test of being one, self included - the majority of the time I like to hurt people they happen to like to be hurt. Oh maybe a little more or a little differently than they'd want, but on the whole, I love a painslut.

I'd say the amount of time I spend hurting people who hate to be hurt or fantasizing about hurting people who hate to be hurt is about 1/3 of the time at most which is still a good chunk more than most self-ID'd Sadists.

I don't think that it has to be this totally clinical/legal/health profession definition of "abuse" for you to call it abuse - if that's the way you and your Daddy filter it mentally. If you were his daughter it'd be abuse, if that's the framework of the interaction, it doesn't confuse me.

A whole lot of what you do may upset me if you were to try and insert it into my personal universe, but I *get* it, I don't see why it's interrogated so harshly. You seem pretty happy and fulfilled. Being open to abuse and open to ANYTHING HE WANTS is a requirement for that, for you, if I read what you write correctly.

I don't know why people go off into la la land when I say H is my slave and I can do anything I want. Most of the time I want him to make me a sandwich and make sure the bathroom's clean. If he's lucky I want to take my stress out with solid kicks to his ass because I find that endlessly funny. Once in a great while I want to put a needle through his tit because it will make him cry and bargain with me. And then he can feel like a tough little SOB when he does it and lives.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's a little like the concept of "rape" within a relationship when there's a mutual agreement that rape cannot exist in the relationship, one in which A can have B on demand.

I think that is a fairly good analogy. It covers the terms and also the fact it is not always pretty or 100% welcomed, but it is what works.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

 

[enpassant18]

Loving Dominant

My introduction to the lifestyle was through a book entitled "The Loving Dominant." The Master/sub relationship is, for me, a love connection, not a power thing. The sub submits out of love, the master dominates ouf of love. I can't imagine a situation where I would want to beat up someone I love.

When i would deny my sub her orgasm, it was with an important subtext: to heighten her pleasure later. And when she would submit to my denial, it was with an important subtext: to heighten my pleasure as I watched her squirm.

Underneath it all at all times was our love for each other. She surrendered her will to me because she needed to; I accepted it as a gift because i wanted to. Punching her in the face just wasn't anywhere in the cards.

 

[Netzach]

My introduction to the lifestyle was through a book entitled "The Loving Dominant." The Master/sub relationship is, for me, a love connection, not a power thing. The sub submits out of love, the master dominates ouf of love. I can't imagine a situation where I would want to beat up someone I love.

When i would deny my sub her orgasm, it was with an important subtext: to heighten her pleasure later. And when she would submit to my denial, it was with an important subtext: to heighten my pleasure as I watched her squirm.

Underneath it all at all times was our love for each other. She surrendered her will to me because she needed to; I accepted it as a gift because i wanted to. Punching her in the face just wasn't anywhere in the cards.

That was an intro to me too.

There's a lot of talk about fear play in that book. Using genuine real life terror to increase bonding, excitement, and whatnot. A highly unpleasant emotion. Why would you want to scare the shit out of your partner so that you can play white-knight games when it's over and she'll fuck your brains out really hard?

Seems manipulative. Could call it abusive.

 

[JMohegan]

it bothers me that so many in a 24/7 living together type relationship seem to think that i don't realize the things that will change when we go to living together. i have been 24/7 since about half way into our relationship. no, not living together, but in the submissive mindset every single day all day.

You're not in the driver's seat, Rose. He is. You are consenting to the ride, but where are you going? And how will you feel about it when you get there? At this point, do you really know?

One thing I can tell you from personal experience on the Top side is that it's a *very* slippery slope.

I do not have a need or interest in the level of violence experienced in more intense SM relationships. Not even close.

But neither do I have a need to justify what I do with reasons such as: "she misbehaved and needs to be punished", or "it's important for a submissive to be reminded of her place every now and then", or "it's important for her to grow in her submission", or indeed any of the other euphemisms commonly used to justify SM activities by some.

I am always amused when people talk about domineering asshats and Dominants as if they are mutually exclusive creatures.

domineer = to rule over or control arbitrarily or arrogantly

In theory, I suppose it's possible that a Dominant could live 24/7 for a sustained period of time with a willing subject and *never* exert control in an arbitrary or arrogant way.

In theory it's possible, but I've never seen it happen. And I sure as hell wouldn't put money on it.

 

[Netzach]

You're not in the driver's seat, Rose. He is. You are consenting to the ride, but where are you going? And how will you feel about it when you get there? At this point, do you really know?

One thing I can tell you from personal experience on the Top side is that it's a *very* slippery slope.

I do not have a need or interest in the level of violence experienced in more intense SM relationships. Not even close.

But neither do I have a need to justify what I do with reasons such as: "she misbehaved and needs to be punished", or "it's important for a submissive to be reminded of her place every now and then", or "it's important for her to grow in her submission", or indeed any of the other euphemisms commonly used to justify SM activities by some.

I am always amused when people talk about domineering asshats and Dominants as if they are mutually exclusive creatures.

domineer = to rule over or control arbitrarily or arrogantly

In theory, I suppose it's possible that a Dominant could live 24/7 for a sustained period of time with a willing subject and *never* exert control in an arbitrary or arrogant way.

In theory it's possible, but I've never seen it happen. And I sure as hell wouldn't put money on it.

Yes. I operate from the school of not requiring explanations.

I happen to be a very talkative magnanimous sort who is really quite nice most of the time. But that's just luck on the part of those who pick me. And it does eventually run out.

 

[catalina_francisco]

will He ever just come home from work one day and because He's had a bad day, punch me in the face and then when i'm on the ground, start kicking me in the ribs? no, He won't because he doesn't view this as something He has the right to do and He wouldn't like Himself much if He became that person. not to mention He would lose my trust, if not lose me all together. that's just not the kind of person He is.

This made me smile because I remember a time when we both felt the same way, very strongly. It was not until we had been living together for quite awhile, that it felt OK to actually discuss it again in terms of our feelings at that moment. We both had experienced a shift to a place where it was acceptable and OK for him to come home or be plain frustrated with something, and use me in an SM sense to relieve that tension. Granted he does not punch me in the face, but to me the type of physical treatment matters little compared to the fact it is often thought of by others as abusive for him to use me in that way. It even took my encouraging him he could believe me when I said it was OK before he could accept the feelings he had and act on them. It then took a few times of doing it before he began to actually see through his fears I wold hold it against him, that I actually didn't and saw it as one more way I could serve him.

i have been 24/7 since about half way into our relationship. no, not living together, but in the submissive mindset every single day all day. everything i do, i consider what He would want me to do , and id o that way, i ask

I too had a 24/7 mindset way before we even met, but it just isn't the same as when you are actually face to face 24/7. For one thing, thinking about how he wants or would like things and making a decision based on that is far different to when you are right there day in day out and subject to him actually making that decison for you or telling you that what you thought is not what he wants right at that moment. Just having him there watching all the time can be both a blessing and a pressure at various times, far more than when you are separated by a lot of kilometres with zeros on the end of them. It is what comes up most in discussions with people who are LDR or online only and those who are not....invariably there is often a lack of understanding what we are talking about until you have walked in our shoes. And no, that is not meant to be superior, it is just fact coming from someone who has done it both ways.

It is like night and day. And yes, even having those times when you visit do not compare or give you a point of reference as it is like going somewhere on vacation and thinking you would love to live there because it is so great while on vacation. Or perhaps a better analogy is thinking about being a teacher who works a particular amount of hours each week and then spends the rest at home, and then being a teacher who is in a place such as a boarding school perhaps where you live in and are basically expected and required to be that teacher whenever it is required in terms of responsibility and the way you live your daily life 24/7 because the students are always there too and see what you do or need your help.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/376776825_821ac56c28_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Netzach]

This made me smile because I remember a time when we both felt the same way, very strongly. It was not until we had been living together for quite awhile, that it felt OK to actually discuss it again in terms of our feelings at that moment. We both had experienced a shift to a place where it was acceptable and OK for him to come home or be plain frustrated with something, and use me in an SM sense to relieve that tension. Granted he does not punch me in the face, but to me the type of physical treatment matters little compared to the fact it is often thought of by others as abusive for him to use me in that way. It even took my encouraging him he could believe me when I said it was OK before he could accept the feelings he had and act on them. It then took a few times of doing it before he began to actually see through his fears I wold hold it against him, that I actually didn't and saw it as one more way I could serve him.



I too had a 24/7 mindset way before we even met, but it just isn't the same as when you are actually face to face 24/7. For one thing, thinking about how he wants or would like things and making a decision based on that is far different to when you are right there day in day out and subject to him actually making that decison for you or telling you that what you thought is not what he wants right at that moment. Just having him there watching all the time can be both a blessing and a pressure at various times, far more than when you are separated by a lot of kilometres with zeros on the end of them. It is what comes up most in discussions with people who are LDR or online only and those who are not....invariably there is often a lack of understanding what we are talking about until you have walked in our shoes. And no, that is not meant to be superior, it is just fact coming from someone who has done it both ways.

It is like night and day. And yes, even having those times when you visit do not compare or give you a point of reference as it is like going somewhere on vacation and thinking you would love to live there because it is so great while on vacation. Or perhaps a better analogy is thinking about being a teacher who works a particular amount of hours each week and then spends the rest at home, and then being a teacher who is in a place such as a boarding school perhaps where you live in and are basically expected and required to be that teacher whenever it is required in terms of responsibility and the way you live your daily life 24/7 because the students are always there too and see what you do or need your help.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/376776825_821ac56c28_t.jpg Catalina

It's interesting. I know my ownership would suffer from having property live in. I would like H not to be on another coast, but I do not ever want him in my house 24/7. The death of service is expectation. I eventually feel tugged by expectation to the point where it'd weaken me too much. It's not an issue of preserving some halcyon fantasy, but knowing where my boundaries are as a person.

I don't know how you all do it, but kudos.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

You're not in the driver's seat, Rose. He is. You are consenting to the ride, but where are you going? And how will you feel about it when you get there? At this point, do you really know?

One thing I can tell you from personal experience on the Top side is that it's a *very* slippery slope.

I do not have a need or interest in the level of violence experienced in more intense SM relationships. Not even close.

But neither do I have a need to justify what I do with reasons such as: "she misbehaved and needs to be punished", or "it's important for a submissive to be reminded of her place every now and then", or "it's important for her to grow in her submission", or indeed any of the other euphemisms commonly used to justify SM activities by some.

I am always amused when people talk about domineering asshats and Dominants as if they are mutually exclusive creatures.

domineer = to rule over or control arbitrarily or arrogantly

In theory, I suppose it's possible that a Dominant could live 24/7 for a sustained period of time with a willing subject and *never* exert control in an arbitrary or arrogant way.

In theory it's possible, but I've never seen it happen. And I sure as hell wouldn't put money on it.

JM, You have confused me greatly with this whole post. i realize i am not in the drivers seat, but i also know that HE knows me well enough to know where HE can take me without me falling apart and being harmed. will my opinions change ? on some things, you bet. will my limits be pushed? of course. will i be abused by Him?? no, i won't, and if He does abuse me, well then i'm gone. and yes, it is that simple. Master doesn't justify crap to anyone. He does what He does because He can, because i have given Him my submission and nothing more, if He wants to punish me, there is no 'justification' needed. as far as the violence, He and i neither one have a need for that in our relationship either. in my opinion there is a difference between Dominant and Domineering, and no i'm not saying that a Dominant lives His whole life without being Domineering at some point, but the majority do not live that way ALL of the time...that's the difference IMO

 

[Netzach]

JM, You have confused me greatly with this whole post. i realize i am not in the drivers seat, but i also know that HE knows me well enough to know where HE can take me without me falling apart and being harmed. will my opinions change ? on some things, you bet. will my limits be pushed? of course. will i be abused by Him?? no, i won't, and if He does abuse me, well then i'm gone. and yes, it is that simple. Master doesn't justify crap to anyone. He does what He does because He can, because i have given Him my submission and nothing more, if He wants to punish me, there is no 'justification' needed. as far as the violence, He and i neither one have a need for that in our relationship either. in my opinion there is a difference between Dominant and Domineering, and no i'm not saying that a Dominant lives His whole life without being Domineering at some point, but the majority do not live that way ALL of the time...that's the difference IMO

I never thought I'd kick a guy's nuts just for fun.

I would have thought it wrong, insane, not safe, and generally unladylike and bad at a former point in my life.

Needless to say I am not where I was on this. It's still not the safest rainy day activity. And yet, it's a fave.

And I do it simply because I feel like it, just whenever. My trainer would be horrified by that, would say that if they hate it I should reserve it for pun-ish-ment (blah).

You have no idea what his needs will be in a month. Or he yours. Or even tomorrow. You know what kind of person he is, that he values you, and you can be reasonably assured that this valuation and love will minimize harm. H doesn't sleep with one eye open and a nut cup on just because he knows I might be feeling antsy.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

This made me smile because I remember a time when we both felt the same way, very strongly. It was not until we had been living together for quite awhile, that it felt OK to actually discuss it again in terms of our feelings at that moment. We both had experienced a shift to a place where it was acceptable and OK for him to come home or be plain frustrated with something, and use me in an SM sense to relieve that tension. Granted he does not punch me in the face, but to me the type of physical treatment matters little compared to the fact it is often thought of by others as abusive for him to use me in that way. It even took my encouraging him he could believe me when I said it was OK before he could accept the feelings he had and act on them. It then took a few times of doing it before he began to actually see through his fears I wold hold it against him, that I actually didn't and saw it as one more way I could serve him.



I too had a 24/7 mindset way before we even met, but it just isn't the same as when you are actually face to face 24/7. For one thing, thinking about how he wants or would like things and making a decision based on that is far different to when you are right there day in day out and subject to him actually making that decison for you or telling you that what you thought is not what he wants right at that moment. Just having him there watching all the time can be both a blessing and a pressure at various times, far more than when you are separated by a lot of kilometres with zeros on the end of them. It is what comes up most in discussions with people who are LDR or online only and those who are not....invariably there is often a lack of understanding what we are talking about until you have walked in our shoes. And no, that is not meant to be superior, it is just fact coming from someone who has done it both ways.

It is like night and day. And yes, even having those times when you visit do not compare or give you a point of reference as it is like going somewhere on vacation and thinking you would love to live there because it is so great while on vacation. Or perhaps a better analogy is thinking about being a teacher who works a particular amount of hours each week and then spends the rest at home, and then being a teacher who is in a place such as a boarding school perhaps where you live in and are basically expected and required to be that teacher whenever it is required in terms of responsibility and the way you live your daily life 24/7 because the students are always there too and see what you do or need your help.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/376776825_821ac56c28_t.jpg Catalina

i dont' think you are understanding me. i'm not saying that i know what it's going to be like living it 24/7. i'm not saying that it won't be different. i am WELL aware of this. Him and i talk on the phone literally ALL day and ALL night long minuse the 5-8 hours that He is at work and even then He calls me on His breaks. i DO know what will be expected of me when we are living together and i do expect that i will have hesitation on alot of things. i know that things change, feelings change, etc..and i am not saying that they won't sorry if i've implied that. but i do KNOW that my feelings on not letting Him abuse me, will NOT change. i don't know how many times i can say that. and letting Him take out His frustrations from work on me is different than being abused in my book, though He said that is something He will not. i'm not a punching bag for Him to use whenever He's had a bad day. maybe that will change, i'm not saying it won't. but i will not live in a relationship that I FEEL i am being abused in. period. that's the end. it won't happen...ever, my feelings on THAT will not change. i have never and would never say that 24/7 living together is the same as the 24/7 mindset i've had for 3 years. i know there is a difference between the two, but we've had ALOT of time to talk about the things He expects of me, and alot of those things i dont' find easy to deal with, but know that i will because i am His. i should have said instead of i 'think about the way he would want it done and do it that way' what i should have said is, i ask HIM how He'd want it done and do it that way. we spend more time on the phone than most people spend talking to each other when they live together. and we have the entire 3 years. so it's not like i'm going into this blindly.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I don't know why people go off into la la land when I say H is my slave and I can do anything I want. Most of the time I want him to make me a sandwich and make sure the bathroom's clean. If he's lucky I want to take my stress out with solid kicks to his ass because I find that endlessly funny. Once in a great while I want to put a needle through his tit because it will make him cry and bargain with me. And then he can feel like a tough little SOB when he does it and lives.

lol, i can very much relate to the above. while it's true that yes, Daddy may do whatever he wants with me, and sometimes that means lending me out for a few hours to some mystery sadist, or tasting his poop, or yes, even a literal butt-kicking (see you two have more in common than you think! lol), the majority of the time it means keeping the floors vacuumed, making soup and sandwiches, polishing his shoes, and keeping the cat away from his black slacks. uber-hardcore stuff.

 

[enpassant18]

That was an intro to me too.

There's a lot of talk about fear play in that book. Using genuine real life terror to increase bonding, excitement, and whatnot. A highly unpleasant emotion. Why would you want to scare the shit out of your partner so that you can play white-knight games when it's over and she'll fuck your brains out really hard?

Seems manipulative. Could call it abusive.

One kind of fear, though, is delicious: the fear of getting caught. My sub loved me to make her strip in a public place like the Tate (an art museum) or in the park. It got progressively serious: first lifting her top; then lowering her pants; finally disrobing completely. I threw a raincoat on her once just before a guard showed up. She was positively panicked. We escaped and she blew me in the gents' in a restaurant.