Absolution for Gretta MacClain - Interim Discussion Feb 27, 2002

[KillerMuffin]

Pardon my cheek, guys but I really did look for a different story to discuss. If our newest member discusses this one (or whatever one Mickie replaces it with) then I'm sure we'll get to his requested discussion story next.

Since we've run out of participants, I re-nominate myself.

Absolution for Gretta MacClain
Non-Consent
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=30049

I hate to say this, but the Splat Studios ad banner ruined the story for me.

What I'm looking for?

Reactions to the story. When you read it through the first time, what was the first thing you thought of? Do you think it accurately reflected the theme? Would you consider this, oh, valuable beyond sexual content?

I made some boo-boos in there, so the typos have already been tendered a pink slip. Just not at Lit. But here's my favorite four questions to ask:

What did you not like about the story? Why?
What did you like about the story? Why?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Reactions to the story.

KM, this is the fiist Lit. story I've given a five. It's not perfect, but it is very good work. My main problem with the story was the daddy taking his two very young daughters to a lynching at all, especially w/o their mother.

You need that scene, of course, plus the photo, to make the story work. But speaking as a southern male WASP who has interviewed folks involved with lynchings, (for a MA in Contemp. Am. Hist.) the kids presence at the event called for a certain suspension of belief. (if you also see this is a possible problem, here's a suggestion: The sisters might be a couple years older. Make the kid sister an older sister and have her coax the protag into sneaking out with her to watch. They're caught by some adults who think it's great the kids are interested and pose them in fromt of the corpse.)

When you read it through the first time, what was the first thing you thought of? Hard to say. I try not to read like a critic, but it's tough. My first thought probably related to young kids being brought to a lynching.

Do you think it accurately reflected the theme?
Would you consider this, oh, valuable beyond sexual content? Yes & Yes

What did you not like about the story? Why? I pretty well licked that cat earlier. The only thing I can add is the lack of detail about the protag or her environment.

What did you like about the story? Why? Good use of flashback. One of the few dream sequences is read that worked.

Congratulations on some good, outside the box, type writing. I hope this helps and that you'll let me have a look at the finished product.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Mickie]

Don't worry about it, KM, you were just filling in while I was gone. So, on to a crit of the story...

The italics in the beginning are a nuisance. Separate it into parts, instead. Labels work better.

Content in the flashback -- really, KM, this is good, solid characterization. A young girl's view that shows the duality of humans. Her father as the 'not-dad but demon'. All of this lends to the otherworld feel of such a scene. Kudos!

I noticed the dating you did with the reference to a water closet and the chain pull for the toilet. Again, good work. And the Cary Grant movie.

All right, so then I got caught up in it and read to the end.

The story is wonderful. Passionate, and even hopeful. Have you thought about making this into a longer version, a novel? It'd be a good one.

The mechanics could use some tightening in the latter part of the story. A few extra words, and a few tiny things that could be said a little clearer. I think you'd catch them, yourself, if you went through a re-write.

That said, the characters of both Gretta and the plumber are really well done. The only thing I might recommend is to look at the pacing of the sex scene in relation to the emotional situation. There are some dramatic switches in emotion, both in Gretta and the plumber. It's done well except for a single line that jarred me.

When the plumber laughs. Everything that leads up to that point reads intense and pure. That laugh doesn't quite fit in. He's now sorry that he's taking this out on a girl who was only five at the time of the hanging, and yet he laughs.

As a result, I have a few questions to ask the other readers...

Does the intensity of the emotion leech into the intensity of the sex? Is this about a black man raping a woman, or is it about a woman's guilt over a childhood event? Just where is the focus in this story, and WHY is it an effective focus?

Mickie

 

[KillerMuffin]

I think it's highly interesting that the one thing about the story that you couldn't believe was the one thing in the story that really did happen, RF. Don't think anything of it, you aren't the first. I would have that that suspension of disbelief would come over the emotional changes in such short time. People just don't let go of guilt and hate over the course of a few minutes.

A little history of the story. I'd been watching PBS that night and couldn't bear to rip myself away from the story of lynchings in America. One particular picture caught me eye, took me forever to find it, and that was of Rubin Stacy and a little white girl staring solemnly at the camera. Now they didn't stand as close together as my story suggests, nor were the circumstances of Mr. Stacy's lynching anywhere near what my story indicated. I would not want to sully or make less of Mr. Stacy in any way so I changed things.

Here's links to the pictures. I must warn you that Mr. Stacy is fully seen and also dead in it. They're horrible pictures, but they were the inspiration for the picture in my story:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USACstacy.htm
http://www.americanlynching.com/pic20.htm

Why did you find it so hard to believe that such a photograph would exist?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Why did you find it so hard to believe that such a photograph would exist?

KM,

My "sense of disbelief" wasn't about that picture, but about the circumstances surrounding the lynching you did such a good job of discribing.

Just because something "really" happened, doesn't mean readers won't view a text version of the event with skepticism. For instance, how many readers would buy the idea that the first German artillery round to strike Leningrad killed the only elephant in the city zoo? Reportedly, that's exactly what happened.

That anyone would let their kid see the aftermath of a lynching is both disgusting and improbable, even though we have photographic evidence of such an event. But as they say on Madison Ave., no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.

IMHO, it's unlikely a grandfather and father in Depression era rural Mississippi would take two girls, one five, one even younger, out at night w/o their mother coming along. I've got a hunch, most modern readers would find it even less likely that the two men would bring these young girls with them to watch a lynching.

My quibbles and suspension of belief aside, the lynching is a powerful scene. But if you don't want the girls sneaking off to watch or the mother tagging along, I'd suggest throwing in a sentence or two explaining the girls presence.

RF

 

[Caria Knight]

I must say, this is very nice work. Here's my thoughts on it.

I had only two small problems with it. First was the beginning, it was nicely written and important to the story. I think it was just the all italic's that bothered me. So much italic's at once is hard on the eyes, especially a small screen monitor.

The other thing was simply the change in the plumber's language. You used a heavy accent / slang in the beginning but from here on....

Cum for me, doll, let me feel you cum on my cock

the accent / slang mellowed a lot IMO. As a reader, I even went back and re-read the above sentace because it just didn't sound right. Don't get me wrong, the heavy slang is a little hard to read but the sudden change after I finally got used to it threw me.

All in all I thought it was a really good story that diffinitly held my attention.

 

[Ray Dario]

What did you not like about the story? Why?

KM, as you said it had a few technical problems that distracted from the story but those aside the only two things I can point to that detracted from the story were the change in "voice" the plumber had and when the girl wondered why the plumber was doing this? She already knew why at that point and somehow that stuck in my craw a little. One other thing that I didn't like was the girl enjoying the rape. Rape is a horrible monsterous act and I always find it difficult to understand stories where women are raped and then enjoy it. In this story I do understand her desiring it for the pain and absolution she believes it might bring to her, but to actually enjoy it? I don't know.

What did you like about the story? Why?

I loved the way you illustrated hate begetting hate. It is so true, especially in the south (where I live). The story was powerful and moving. Your treatment of racism and all of it's ugliness was honest and moving. And to your question does this story have power outside the sex? Yes. In fact its sex had very little power but the rest of the story did.


To RumpleForeskin: I am very glad to know people now can live in society where racism is so foreign that you would have trouble believing that members of the KKK would take children to the lynching of black man. In truth, however, there is still enough ghastly racism in the south that even had the story been set in modern day in Louisianna or south Texas it would have been believable. Sadly racists want their children to see and experiance such brutal acts, believing it is "good" for the child. It is just another symptom of their sickness.

Ray

 

[KillerMuffin]

Ah, okay, RF, I misunderstood you. I know very little about events surrounding lynchings themselves only that they were horrible things that some men did to other men. But then, men have being doing horrible things to each other since the dawn of humanity. I use men in a completely generic manner. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with this story, nor make it seem as if I were out to show how bad white people are because that wasn't my intent at all. It does seem to me that you are a little offended by it.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

It does seem to me that you are a little offended by it (the story).

KM,

Offended, no. It least not consciously. (can't speak for all the things lurking in the dark recesses of my moldering mind) Embarrassed that other white southerners or any fellow human being would do such a thing, definitely. A little aggravated that my writing skills aren't up to accurately communicating my thoughts, yes.

As I mentioned earlier, this is a fine piece of writing and the first Lit story I've given a five. However, since you asked for a critique, I mentioned some of the things which jarred me, even if only slightly, during the reading.

One item was the pre-school age girls being taken to a lynching at all, much less w/o their mother to watch over them while their father and grandfather were busy. I put in the info about me so you would know my perspective.

Here's a quick down and dirty about lynchings. They usually took place at night, on weekends, and during the summer. Most of the time they were dis-organized revenge-minded mobs "taking care of business." However, even the "organized" ones really weren't.

Don't quote me on this next part; it's a real reach into one of my brain's many dark recesses. The lynching of Mr. Stacy took place, I believe, very late on a Saturday night. The crowds milling about his body were going to Sunday church (which explains why they were all dressed up and the girl was there). Again, I'm not certain about all this and right now, I don't have the stomach for doing any research on this subject.

I appreciate your follow-ups and the chance to try and explain what I couldn't communicate properly on the first try. Let me know if you have any more questions and please consider letting me see the final version of the story.

RF

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm glad you weren't offended, at least consciously. I'm not a racially motivated person, I just occurred to me that the story can come across as a racially motivated story.

I thought it over quite a bit, but I don't think I can change the situation involved with the lynching. It's a short story and I just don't have the luxury of time to explain why she should feel guilty. That's the reason I wrote the history of her lynching that way. I don't have the necessity of explaining motivation and psychological things that are even more difficult to get a reader to believe. As it stands the inference is that she is guilty because she believes she is responsible for killing the man. Just showing up on a lark isn't something that's going to impress that magnitude of guilt into someone.

One direction that I did not want to go was to editorialize the situation. I didn't want there to be a feeling that I was against the "white man" for what he did to the "black man." Mickie asked a few questions that are extremely appropriate, I think.

"Does the intensity of the emotion leech into the intensity of the sex? Is this about a black man raping a woman, or is it about a woman's guilt over a childhood event? Just where is the focus in this story, and WHY is it an effective focus?"

 

[Ray Dario]

KM,

To me it was a story of a woman, obsessed with guilt over something that happened in her childhood, striving for absolution. In the end, perhaps she found it, perhaps not. Your ending suggests she does, at least for a little while, But obsessions are rarely cured in a flash.

Again to me, it was a powerful story because the main character was developed very well and I had real emotional buy in for her. It was also powerful because of the the way the hatred and racism was dealt with. You managed to tell the story without lecturing on it, but still told the story in such a way that I was led, or perhaps saw it this way because of my own views, to the inescapable conclusion that hatred bred hatred and violence bred violence. The lynching of a black man by racist white men led to the rape of a white woman by an angry black man. No removal of guilt from the black rapist, just an indication of motivation and we see racism reversed and the original racist becoming the victim of her families crime. Still the fact remains that the plumber is a rapist, he chose to rape the woman.

You say you are not a racially motivated person. I believe you. But, whether you intended or not, this story touched on the racism issue and I think you handled it very well. I think you handled the rape issue less well and perhaps because it was a rape scene, I didn't find the story erotic in the least. Sad, meaningful, potent, but not erotic. Even if I had been sporting a glorious woody from watching Vivianna films, I would have shrivelled up like a salted snail upon reading it. This doesn't make it a bad story, just a story about bad things.

Ray

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Hi KM,

The story has much going for it. I think I once wrote you about it and complimented you. I support the good things said here about the story, by and large.

There is actually a *story with pretty real characters, and since that's so rare around here, I salute you. A couple points of concern. You have to decide if it's porn you're trying to write (albeit, socially conscious porn). The detailing is of that nature.
As with the porn-rape genre the author seemingly doesn't approve but gives the titillating details ['thick penis', 'delicate swollen tissues', see below].

There are some nice phrases--'muted counterpoint'--but you must discipline yourself. There are several cases of overwriting; to wit,

He rolled off of her, onto his side. Hooking an arm around her waist, he tugged her backside against his front. She sighed in relief when he stabbed into her again, his thick penis roughly abrading the delicate, swollen tissues. The pain washed through her again, absolving her. He lifted her upper leg, pulling it back and over his, spreading her obscenely open to the clear light from the naked bulb in her tiny kitchen. [end quote]

I know you fight to restrain yourself these days, but don't give up that 'less is more,' for you, with adverbs and adjectives.

I'm not sure of the dating. If it's a Stacey-ish lynching in about 1935, then she's five at that time, and born in about 1930. The new movie is 1948, making her 18 at the time of the story and her being raped. But somehow she does not feel like 18, more like 25 at least (her guilt sounds like it's run into adulthood).

It's noticeable and an interesting experiment that your third person narrator takes on her characteristics, such as child-like talk and thought in the opening italicized section. You do have to be careful again of over-doing daddy in the demonic light of the fire.

The story shows care in construction, as is usually true with you.
Keep up the good work.

Jack
abashed-dreamer

 

[KillerMuffin]

That's an interesting point about pornogarphy. I generally don't write pornography. Rarely do my stories get people off, or so I'm told. So I wouldn't classify this as pornograph-rape. I never had. Laurel just doesn't have an erotica category. There'd be a lot of fights if she did.

I don't consider this story pornographic in the least. There was no intent on arousing or getting readers off when I wrote or. The story itself is about two people learning something new, even for a brief moment. It just happens to take place during a sexually explicit rape. That is what makes it erotica and therefore appropriate for Lit.

Is it necessary for a sexually explicit story to arouse people to be a successful story? Is the general critique of "it's a 5 if I cum" apply to this kind of story? Did this transcend pornography, or was it ever pornography in the first place?

 

[Idle_Hands]

uh, oh. The "erotica/pornography" divide is here.

Not that I want to get into *that*, but until your last post, I was thinking about the ways in which the story turned me on, and the places where it didn't. Face it, we're all wired differently, and any story which describes sexual situations is going to get some of us off.

I've rarely been drawn to non-consent stories, because they tend to wind up with the woman enjoying it, which requires a herculean suspension of disbelief.


With that preface to my comments, here they are:

I, too, had a hard time with the italics at the top, but they did help to refer back to the dream in the body of the story.

As I read the first half I was very uneasy. I was quite surprised to see someone at Lit tackling such a charged topic. It seemed tasteless, and I thought, "my god, what is this author doing putting this into a sex story?"

As the story evolved that feeling went away. Still, you've picked two of the most charged topics in our society, so you'd better tread carefully.

I was confused by the location - there was no hint that we weren't in the south any more.

When things switched from his raping her, and he pulled out I didn't get it. Why has his anger, which was great enough to spur him to commit rape, been overcome by conscience? Perhaps something else needs to happen here.

The most interesting part was the woman's turning this invasion in her own mind to her own needs. It may be that having her speak some of this to him as he violates her would provide an answer to the problem above. Perhaps as he brutalizes her, and she gets lost more and more associating the painful, humiliating situation with her need to absolve herself she starts talking about it. This could have the effect of diffusing his anger/passion, as his need for revenge is no longer being met.

Does that make any sense?

From there the story winds its way into familiar sex territory, which it does well (and was a turn-on). However, the tension is also gone. He ends up providing her a service (absolution, delivered with an orgasm), and goes away pleasantly. I was fine with this during my first reading, but as I think about it here, I'm not satisfied.

You've done a good job of laying out the causes of his anger and his desire for revenge. He's become a sympathetic character, and in the end his need for revenge isn't met. Sure, he explains that she was just five, so she can't hold herself responsible, but in my mind he was choosing her as a symbolic target (perhaps with a convienient connection).

I'm not sure what your goal was in writing the story, but it seems to me that the most interesting thing an exploration of the issues these two characters have, and how they intersect in an intensely-charged situation.

If you plan to do any more work on it, I would encourage you to tone down the part where pleasures her. I would, in fact, remove some of the sex entirely, and focus on what's in their heads more. For me, the explicit sex scenes distract.

Also, the "Cum for me, doll, let me feel you cum on my cock" line jarred for me, too. I have no idea what sort of sex talk is correct for the period, but from here it seems wrong.

KM,
I hope my criticism isn't too harsh. I guess the fact that you're dealing with such strong subjects makes me judge the work more closely. You're brave to take them on.

- e

 

[Ray Dario]

Still, you've picked two of the most charged topics in our society, so you'd better tread carefully.

I hope you didn't really mean that IH. Just my opinion here but it is not a writers job to bow to societies level of comfort. Some of the best stories ever written shoved society out of it's comfort zone with great exhuberance. Also I don't really think its in KM's persona to "tread carefully"

Also, the "Cum for me, doll, let me feel you cum on my cock" line jarred for me, too. I have no idea what sort of sex talk is correct for the period, but from here it seems wrong.

I agree with this completly. By that point in the story, I was feeling like the sex was added just to make the story "fit in" at Lit and it just felt awkward. Also, as I think about it, the story seemed a little anticlimactic. It all built up to the rape and then the rape itself just kinda fizzled out. Maybe that was just me though.

Still, even with this, it was a very powerful and moving story. It didn't just incite emotion in the reader, it grabbed it, pulled it from them forceably and then stomped on it for good measure. It takes an excellent writer to do that.

Ray

 

[Idle_Hands]

I hope you didn't really mean that IH. Just my opinion here but it is not a writers job to bow to societies level of comfort. Some of the best stories ever written shoved society out of it's comfort zone with great exhuberance. Also I don't really think its in KM's persona to "tread carefully"

Point taken. It's just that (my opinion, now) racism is about the worst thing our society has to offer. That makes it something we should talk about more, rather than less, so I'm not faulting KM for approaching the subject. I guess my point is more that if one wants to write about it, it's best done with eyes wide open.

I also have no idea what KM's intent is with the story (in fact, I know practically nothing about KM at all), so it's hard to comment on how effective it is.

She asked if it "had value beyond sexual content": Yes, I think it does, but I think it's lessened by the sexual content itself. This makes for a balancing act, and one that I would be interested to see developed further. Hence my comments.

 

[DRxBlue]

There's a LOT that's good here, even if it hurts

The first time i read this story i ended up a wreck, for quite a while. The level of emotion, the pain of both the main characters and Gretta's fear and her trauma from the lynching and rape really got to me.

i also picked up on the historical references. They really added to the atmosphere.

"The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer" was a bit before i was born, but i was in high school during much of the civil rights movement. The decor, attitudes and accents ring very true. ("moving picture" might have seemed old-fashioned in 1947)

The few technical problems didn't detract from my enjoyment; i didn't even notice them until i started analyzing for this post.

Did you count "bought of tears" as a spelling mistake? "Liquid heat pooling on her thighs" is an acceptable phrase, but once per story should be enough.

At the end, i couldn't tell exactly how she felt she had "betrayed another human being". i can kinda see it in the case of Jeremiah, and how that would cause her need for pain and absolution, but did she betray the rapist by having an orgasm?

The biggest mistake to me was the rapist's actions after talking to her. i'd have had more respect for him if he'd let her go once he found out that she hadn't been keeping the picture as a trophy, but as a penance.

i think it's REALLY wrong for him to decide that having robbed her of her virginity, he might as well show her a good time now that he'd forgiven her.

The true story that inspired your tale obviously had a profound effect on you. There may be a great story growing here. It's good already but i felt the subject might be put to better use in a non-erotic form.

The beginning of the attack shows clearly that rape is about violence, not sex. Maybe if you went with that and find a way for the rapist to find some release from his demons this story could be truly great.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Hi KM,

DRxB raises an issue I've been pondering, and some other posters have raised related concerns.
I'll put it in the form of questions, since I don't have an answer.

1) Woman feels guilty for a lynching which she saw and possibly in some way 'provoked'. She later undergoes a brutal rape by a black man, who is outraged over a lynching of his relative.
In her pain, she punished and afterwards she feels a kind of relief, or absolution. This Plot 1) makes sense, doesn't it? The man too, might let go his anger, "I've hurt the woman, tit-for-tat and the debt is paid."

2) Same woman is raped, but in the middle of it (typical porn plot) finds it immensely arousing, and the man turns gentle and proves to be a skilled lover leading to a quasi consentual fuck fest. ('My body betrayed me' as they always say; i.e. it's a turn on.) Now, Plot 2) has its own logic, as least in the world of porn fantasy, doesn't it?

Problem, Can one plausibly combine the two plots, starting with 1) moving to 2) and returning to 1) for the feeling of absolution?

In particular, does the pleasure and orgasm so nicely 'given' mitigate against the feeling of 'absolution'?

What is going on in the rapist's mind--Clearly, in the beginning a rape is what she deserves as a white bitch who if not herself, is of a type that 'causes' lynching. Yet he changes and decides she is not to be raped/punished (indeed, could it not be argued that it's no longer possible for her to be raped if she says, 'do it'?)

He decides to show her a grand old time, and even take special care, since she is a virgin. We presume AT THAT POINT he
has forgiven whatever she did, right?

Isn't he then giving her a kind of 'gift'? "I feel tenderly toward you and want you to surrender to your pleasure with me." (hypothetical thought). Isn't it the case that at that point his character has changed as much as he will, up to the end of the story?

She is initially unwilling to receive this gift, as shown in her attempts to make him continue a violent rape. But he declines and she accepts the gift. Indeed, it may be that she's given a kind of consent (to sex and pleasure). Does that work against feeling absolved? One can't say, "As the lynched person suffered, so have I, by way of retribution, now I can move on." But rather, "I'm going to have a grand time with this sexy, skilled Black man, and we're just going to let go the past." Would that be absolution?
======

Without revisiting the porn/erotica debate, the question of sexual detail still remains, as raised by myself and several others.

IF the main point, as you say, is the emotional encounter and the 'absolution', then perhaps some of the detail is gratuitous, esp. if, at least at some points there is an impression of reading
a Plot 2), rape-becomes-fuckfest fantasy.

In general though, I liked the story, and congratulate you on its impact, which is certainly there, somehow, despite the misgivings that occur to me (and others) upon reflection. I hope you take the questions, etc. in the friendly spirit in which they are offered.

"Jack"
abashed-dreamer

 

[KillerMuffin]

Hey, don't pander, don't be Mary Poppins, I don't need a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down. I've learned that I am not my babies and that constructive criticism is my absolute favorite form of feedback even when I grumble.

The thing I found the most difficult to believe about this entire thing was that she found any absolution at all. I've been around enough combat veterans to see death-guilt, people who blame themselves for deaths that they really couldn't do anything about. I don't think there's anything that could ever make them let go of that guilt. They'll always believe inside that they could have prevented it, they could have stopped, and that it's all their fault.

The rape itself didn't seem too unrealistic to me, but then I've been reading too many NonConsent in these parts and it's rather warped my view of everything. The astonishing thing about women that I've noticed is self-flagellation. I think that she considered the rape a punishment that she fully deserved. So she needed it to be a rape. He eventually understood that he wasn't getting justice, he was just hurting them both. He tried to make it right like most good men do when they do something wrong. Cause it's on an porn site it followed that he'd try to bring her pleasure. Not her idea of deserved punishment.

Then again, I'm pretty warped in the head myself. The ending was completely fantastical to me. Most people seemed to accept it and didn't believe that such a photograph could exist, or in RF's case, that such a scenario could happen. I'll float my stick along with his expertise in such matters. I didn't consult, just saw a picture once.

I'm not sure if I'm going to clean this story up. Where else could I possibly put it? I think it was a good exercise for me in learning how to manipulate the reader's emotions. Not a terribly worthy thing, but my goal in writing this was to get my hooks into the reader emotionally and tug on them. I wanted them to get sucked into the characters and feel. I wanted them to be disturbed, not by the lynching or by the rape, but by the strength that guilt has. I wanted them to feel the guilt and the hurt and finally the hope. I don't know if I ever accomplished that, but I do know that I've made people cry. One of my very good friends says she doesn't read my stuff because she's just not in the mood to get her heart jumped on.

This story was all about guilt, the rape, the lynching, and the racism were simply surface issues.

All things considered, I think it was relatively successful for a first draft, but it definitely could stand some improvement, including a great deal of reasearch.

 

[DRxBlue]

Ooops

Oh~nothing