A woman and a man and power?

[Veroe]

I just did yet another image search for a BDSM pic to use in the I'll let __ do this to me thread and once again finding zilch to fit in with the specific tone of my desire.

*Sigh*

I think this is symptomatic of most peoples misconceptions towards BDSM. Especially when it comes to looking for content on the web of a woman dominating a man. The man must be weak, meek, easily dominated-in short not a Man (capital M) at all. And the domme, oh, she must be harsh, abusive, degrading to the man. Like anything short of acting like an absolute asshole to a man takes away her power?

Don't get me wrong I'm not against S and M. They have their place, and given the right domme, I have no objection to submitting to it, but I'm really saddened that the other end of the spectrum is severely underepresented on the web.

So, the question is and the point of this thread is, If a woman dominates a man does submitting to it make the man less than a man, and if a woman who weilds power over a man does she have to be an utter bitch in order to keep it.

This is more a question for BDSM, but it also can be more concerned to gender relations in the mainstream world too. If a woman is say a man's boss in the corporate world does she have to be a bitch in order to do the job and boss the man around?

 

[Light Ice]

Can you eat a hotdog without ketchup and mustard? Sure.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Oooh Veroe, great question and rest assured that I have a lengthy explanation. Suffice it to say that I did have a conversation about this with my "boy" Dr. J. I am sure he will have thoughts on this.

Here's a twist on this. Are we talking about Women having power over just men? Or Women having power over other women? Are we really uncomfortable with the idea of a woman in power (I say yes). Perhaps I am jumping the feminist thing too soon.

BUT!

A woman does not have to be a bitch in order to wield power- but it helps.

EDIT- Smacks LI

 

[Light Ice]

Oooh Veroe, great question and rest assured that I have a lengthy explanation. Suffice it to say that I did have a conversation about this with my "boy" Dr. J. I am sure he will have thoughts on this.

Here's a twist on this. Are we talking about Women having power over just men? Or Women having power over other women? Are we really uncomfortable with the idea of a woman in power (I say yes). Perhaps I am jumping the feminist thing too soon.

BUT!

A woman does not have to be a bitch in order to wield power- but it helps.

EDIT- Smacks LI

This is nonsense and you know it.

Sexual appetites are as diverse as any human interest and there is a place and fit for almost all of them. This is one place where feminism has absolutely no place to rear it's misguided head, A.

 

[PenIsMightier1]

I don't have to be a bitch, I just like to be

 

[Light Ice]

I don't have to be a bitch, I just like to be

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Well, then, I suppose it depends.
I suppose you might be less of a man if you think women are inherently weaker than men and, if you are submitting, you certainly see yourself as less of a man.
But, then again, if you think men are strong and women weak and the correct social position to be that men should dominate women, well, I don't think you are much of a man at all.
(btw, by 'you' I mean the generic 'you' not you Veroe).

As far as women having to be a bitch to keep power, you'll find that the exact same things that we consider to be strong, powerful behavior in men are seen as 'bitchy' in women.

This, of course, is the result of my first remark being pathetically prevalent in the world.

In the world of BDSM, there is definitely a leaning towards the role of men as dom and women as sub, and thats fine. We are who we are. But to think that this is what defines us, and that breaking out of that mold in any way makes you less than who the world thinks you should be is exactly the bullshit that keeps us with one foot in the imaginary 1950s of Leave It To Beaver.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

This is nonsense and you know it.

Sexual appetites are as diverse as any human interest and there is a place and fit for almost all of them. This is one place where feminism has absolutely no place to rear it's misguided head, A.

Please bitch.

The only reason you called me out is because I mentioned the F-word. (Don't be afraid LI)

Tell me that you are comfortable with a woman in power, and you have no call to call her a cunt, bitch or something else. And to be sure I am not talking about the construction of a SM power dynamic with the woman in charge.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Veroe very specifically expands the question outside of sexuality.
For example" If a woman is say a man's boss in the corporate world does she have to be a bitch in order to do the job and boss the man around?"

Plus, I think when you bring in the qualities of a gender being in question, you've automatically expanded beyond the bedroom.

 

[Light Ice]

Please bitch.

The only reason you called me out is because I mentioned the F-word. (Don't be afraid LI)

Tell me that you are comfortable with a woman in power, and you have no call to call her a cunt, bitch or something else. And to be sure I am not talking about the construction of a SM power dynamic with the woman in charge.

I don't understand how you can even pretend that this is an issue of sex. The BDSM community in general is not socially accepted. It's a remarkably small slice of the public that subscribes and participates in the community itself. This means, by default, that within the community there are minorities in their own right.

- Men submitting to women, by most accounts, seems to be a minority in the community.

- Non-masochistic submission, in particular, further divides that group.

There's absolutely a place for it. It's rare based on how precise the focus group happens to be.

That's all there is to it. Period.

 

[Ahren]

Women in power? ohh my goood nooooo! I'm a pathetic insecure man and cannot handle the idea of a strong woman!

That's what the women want to hear, right?

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Okay let me try this again. I think I am being a little nebulous in my thoughts. So I will speak from my OWN experience.

I love power dynamics in relationships. Power dynamics in both ways actually. I have played submissive roles and dominant roles, they both have their own draw.

Now! I do have a boy, and he has submitted to me in variety of ways. Yes, this has limitations in that we are far apart from each other. So. I will speak to the times I have dominated a male in RL (and yes, I have). Once was a relationship, and it's the dynamic he wanted. Hearing him beg was single handedly the hottest thing I have ever heard. And then, another was a spanking. Which was... interesting.

In both cases I have found that I have never had to be a bitch, true my tone takes on a more assertive level. But that man is craving that pain/humiliation/whatever so much that it becomes natural to call them out for it.

Seeing that you've never played with this power dynamic, LI, I am going to tell you to shut your face. Or I will. grins

Oh and Veroe, you can find images of pure submission, but yes, it takes a little searching. You will have to get past the shit. I am going to recommend that you take a little gander at fetlife babe. You might find what you are looking for there.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Women in power? ohh my goood nooooo! I'm a pathetic insecure man and cannot handle the idea of a strong woman!

That's what the women want to hear, right?

Smacks Ahren

Sit there and look pretty.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Women in power? ohh my goood nooooo! I'm a pathetic insecure man and cannot handle the idea of a strong woman!
That's what the women want to hear, right?

Woot. At last a club I can join. Do we have a secret handshake and stuff. Oh, wait, will others know, I mean, about what we are . . .?

 

[Last_Rider]

From my perspective, a woman does not have to be a bitch to keep authority or power. Actually I'm more inclined to rebel/slack off when working for a bitchy boss (male or female) than someone who has some respect for the people under them. I've had two bosses who I did not respect, neither was especially bitchy, but one never appreciated what I did and the other was borderline incompetent.

Moving this to a somewhat sexual discussion, I don't respond to bitchy women. I don't do humiliation play, verbal abuse, or degrading scenarios. I realize that this is somewhat more common, something like 70% of femdom videos and/or stories seem to devote much time to verbal humiliation. Personally at the first mention of anything being pathetic or worthless I'm done.

 

[Dr_James]

As announced, I do have opinions on this matter.

I do not feel a woman need be a bitch to have power in either case. As a domme or as a boss, the true hallmark of power is control for me. Confidence and poise and always in control of herself and the situation.

Now for the does submission diminish one in the idea of "traditional" gender roles. How does will giving that part of you in the act of submission diminish you as a person? The dominant can only take what the submissive willing gives. If that paradigm is broken then it gets dangerous. Yes, the dom pushes and strips away parts of the sub but only as far as the sub allows or can take. Hence, the use of safewords.

The act of submission is a beautiful act. Both in reception and in action. Thinking of this response has made me think of my experience as a dom (RL) and as a sub (online). I will never forget the way she looked up at me when I commanded or caused her to do so. The look in her eyes was beautiful and I will never forget that look of submission and for that moment she was mine completely. Unfortunately that is no longer the case.

Now for my Miss. My experience with her has been an interesting and wonderful journey. It was very hard for me to kneel and it was not until she found the queue that allowed me to enter that submissive space did I let go of my need for control. Does my submission to her make me less of a man? No. It makes me more of a man. I can let go of my need for control and I relish that I am Hers.

 

[Veroe]

As announced, I do have opinions on this matter.

I do not feel a woman need be a bitch to have power in either case. As a domme or as a boss, the true hallmark of power is control for me. Confidence and poise and always in control of herself and the situation.

Now for the does submission diminish one in the idea of "traditional" gender roles. How does will giving that part of you in the act of submission diminish you as a person? The dominant can only take what the submissive willing gives. If that paradigm is broken then it gets dangerous. Yes, the dom pushes and strips away parts of the sub but only as far as the sub allows or can take. Hence, the use of safewords.

The act of submission is a beautiful act. Both in reception and in action. Thinking of this response has made me think of my experience as a dom (RL) and as a sub (online). I will never forget the way she looked up at me when I commanded or caused her to do so. The look in her eyes was beautiful and I will never forget that look of submission and for that moment she was mine completely. Unfortunately that is no longer the case.

Now for my Miss. My experience with her has been an interesting and wonderful journey. It was very hard for me to kneel and it was not until she found the queue that allowed me to enter that submissive space did I let go of my need for control. Does my submission to her make me less of a man? No. It makes me more of a man. I can let go of my need for control and I relish that I am Hers.

This was very similar to my own oppinions on the subject.

Ausus

In both cases I have found that I have never had to be a bitch, true my tone takes on a more assertive level. But that man is craving that pain/humiliation/whatever so much that it becomes natural to call them out for it.

The assertiveness I don't think means bitchy, beside you're sexy when you're assertive.

I really think assertiveness is just a byproduct of that powerdynamic you were talking about. As for calling the sub's out on they're desire for pain and humiliation that goes with their desires doesn't it. Calling them out for wanting it is icing on the cake or the punctuation mark isn't it?
Of course its all a matter of degree though. Too much is bitchy too little could be seen as wishy washy. When it comes down to it its a matter to be answered by the domme and her sub where that line is.

Rider

Moving this to a somewhat sexual discussion, I don't respond to bitchy women. I don't do humiliation play, verbal abuse, or degrading scenarios. I realize that this is somewhat more common, something like 70% of femdom videos and/or stories seem to devote much time to verbal humiliation. Personally at the first mention of anything being pathetic or worthless I'm done.

Same here, same here. I don't particularly find degradation sexy either male or female, but hey 'each their own', right?

LI

- Men submitting to women, by most accounts, seems to be a minority in the community.

- Non-masochistic submission, in particular, further divides that group.

There's absolutely a place for it. It's rare based on how precise the focus group happens to be.

That's all there is to it. Period

So you're saying my particular kink is limiting an already small minority's niche offering for me?

hmmm...hey I'm unique Hooray!

...hey I'm alone

 

[Last_Rider]

Eh, you're not alone Veroe, of course that also means your not technically unique. But we're a rather smaller portion of the community. Just means as long as liberals are in power we should get more than we require

Seriously though, I'm not trying to make a political statement just being snarky. Please don't let this degenerate into political debates.

 

[fuckmeat]

Some eye candy for Veroe.

http://media.picfor.me/001BC81D/SASHA-sexy-couple-woman-beauty-sexy-hot-Love-sensual-Couples-daniels-bostongemini-arenas-Pictures-love-couples-grab-girlpower-resim-lovers-ibravo-Art-Of-Seduction-femdom-bw-blackwhite-amor-romantik-Nuno-luv-black-white-Pix-

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_w8GZoF_UPfA/TR4Zna_p6HI/AAAAAAAAAL0/c6trLFg9i2g/s1600/femdom_6.gif

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd138/littleshaun_99/eaf3.jpg

http://denyingthumper.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/05.jpeg?w=500&h=375

http://denyingthumper.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/00.jpeg?w=500&h=500

http://denyingthumper.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/02.jpeg?w=500&h=334

http://denyingthumper.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/03.jpeg?w=500&h=375

http://denyingthumper.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/06.jpeg?w=467&h=700

http://denyingthumper.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/07.jpeg?w=500&h=367

http://denyingthumper.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/09.jpeg?w=500&h=636

 

[fuckmeat]

So, to address the topic...

Porn is always about market forces and what appeals to the most people. When it comes to BDSM themed stuff, which is a niche market to start with, there's a lot less for image/film makers to gain from catering to minority tastes. This is another reason that sites like deviantart have become so popular, because people who feel their kink/fetish is under-represented can create and upload their own bespoke material. So the short answer is; if you don't like what's out there, create stuff you do like.

As a bisexual sub, I've always found it peculiar that men can be considered less manly for wanting the same things that I want as a woman. I think that the insulting attitudes about the archaic and unevolved 'natural order of things' that some guys use to justify their dominant/sadistic treatment of women are as derogatory to the women they play with as they are to the sub men they don't... if that makes any sense at all.

As a woman who has submitted to women, the physical aspect of the power exchange is largely moot. When submitting to a man, much is often made of our disparate physical strength and that can be hot in the right circumstances but what it does not constitute is justification or some kind of animalistic/genetic/biochemical 'rightness.'

If I might digress somewhat...

When I trained as a nurse a lot of time was spent discussing types and levels of pain. It is extremely difficult to accurately assess pain in patients, because pain is a totally subjective experience and people respond to pain in very different ways. A famous quote by Margo McCaffery in 1968 reads: "Pain is whatever the patient says it is and exists whenever the patient says it does." Obviously this applies to conscious patients who can express or communicate pain. In 2011 it is still the philosophy most nurses/doctors apply when assessing and treating pain. A patient is commonly asked to give their pain a number between 1 and 10, with 10 being the worst pain they have ever experienced. This by definition is therefore a purely subjective measurement, which cannot be in any way applied to any other patient in pain.

So this is pretty much the way I view kink. Kink is whatever the people practising it say it is and exists whenever they say it does. There are plenty of people who do kinky things but don't identify as kinky or 'lifestylers' or whatever. There are people at the other end of the spectrum, who are very self aware when it comes to the terminology used in kink friendly communities, the labels people can and do attach to themselves. Many of the most heated discussions in the BDSM Talk forum have been about how people self identify and whether others agree with how their self-assigned label suits them. Hairs have been split for example to create the submissive spectrum of bottom, masochist, submissive, slave and so on and people feel passionate about what they choose to identify as, even if majority opinion on the forum places them in a different category. Kink is too subjective for categories, we define ourselves and seek out those who agree with and complement that definition.

So dragging that whole tangent back towards the 'lesser man' debate...

To me, submissiveness in men is another facet of sexuality, not a descriptor for their whole personality or something of which they should ever be ashamed. Guys post threads quite regularly in How To and other subforums, asking whether wanting anal play, prostate stimulation or strap-on sex from a woman makes them homosexual. The truth is that finding other men sexually attractive is homosexuality, everything else is just sex. Submission shouldn't make a man feel less of a man, just as it should never make a woman feel less of a woman and have a negative impact on her self esteem or how she conducts herself outside the bedroom/dynamic.

I think Vail is right in that personality traits which are considered manly can often appear bitchy or arrogant in women, simply because those women are a minority. In the same way, passive or submissive character traits in men are often viewed as negative or weak, whereas in a woman they would be accepted and found endearing. This is all part of the heteronormative way of viewing the world because in gay people effeminism in men is found to be empowering and endearing. Lesbians are less well accepted for being masculine or 'butch' but it's still seen as a facet of their self identity, having created their personality by conscious choice rather than letting life experience shape who they are and just going with the flow, as many heteronormative people do.

I think Dr J hit the nail on the head with this comment: -

I do not feel a woman need be a bitch to have power in either case. As a domme or as a boss, the true hallmark of power is control for me. Confidence and poise and always in control of herself and the situation.

But confident and poised women are not subjectively viewed as such by many people. A man who is uncomfortable with having a confident, assertive female boss will view her as a 'bitch' however she behaves. He's expressing his discomfiture with and emasculation by his comparative status, not her conduct as an employer or manager. Equally, other women who are subordinate may express their jealousy by calling their female boss a bitch. People are generally a whole lot less objective in everyday situations than they imagine they are.

Ok, I think I've waffled on long enough.

 

[grant_s]

- Men submitting to women, by most accounts, seems to be a minority in the community.

- Non-masochistic submission, in particular, further divides that group.

There's absolutely a place for it. It's rare based on how precise the focus group happens to be.

I have to agree to LI here

From my perspective, a woman does not have to be a bitch to keep authority or power. Actually I'm more inclined to rebel/slack off when working for a bitchy boss (male or female) than someone who has some respect for the people under them. I've had two bosses who I did not respect, neither was especially bitchy, but one never appreciated what I did and the other was borderline incompetent.

Moving this to a somewhat sexual discussion, I don't respond to bitchy women. I don't do humiliation play, verbal abuse, or degrading scenarios. I realize that this is somewhat more common, something like 70% of femdom videos and/or stories seem to devote much time to verbal humiliation. Personally at the first mention of anything being pathetic or worthless I'm done.

In my opinion, thats because the submission that both Veroe and Last Rider speak about, you can't photograph, or put in film , emotions, and eye contact just don't sell, and you can't show the sub going weak at the knees.

As announced, I do have opinions on this matter.

I do not feel a woman need be a bitch to have power in either case. As a domme or as a boss, the true hallmark of power is control for me. Confidence and poise and always in control of herself and the situation.

Now for the does submission diminish one in the idea of "traditional" gender roles. How does will giving that part of you in the act of submission diminish you as a person? The dominant can only take what the submissive willing gives. If that paradigm is broken then it gets dangerous. Yes, the dom pushes and strips away parts of the sub but only as far as the sub allows or can take. Hence, the use of safewords.

The act of submission is a beautiful act. Both in reception and in action. Thinking of this response has made me think of my experience as a dom (RL) and as a sub (online). I will never forget the way she looked up at me when I commanded or caused her to do so. The look in her eyes was beautiful and I will never forget that look of submission and for that moment she was mine completely. Unfortunately that is no longer the case.

Now for my Miss. My experience with her has been an interesting and wonderful journey. It was very hard for me to kneel and it was not until she found the queue that allowed me to enter that submissive space did I let go of my need for control. Does my submission to her make me less of a man? No. It makes me more of a man. I can let go of my need for control and I relish that I am Hers.

The question of being less of a man, I think comes down to more of the stigma attached to what main stream thinking of the issue is, and that is what you get in most of the photo's and films based on male submission.
The majority focus on humiliation, and to sissify the male sub, actions that can be seen, rather than the emotion a sub would feel, as mentioned above.

This was very similar to my own oppinions on the subject.

Ausus


The assertiveness I don't think means bitchy, beside you're sexy when you're assertive.

I really think assertiveness is just a byproduct of that powerdynamic you were talking about. When it comes down to it its a matter to be answered by the domme and her sub where that line is.

Rider


Same here, same here. I don't particularly find degradation sexy either male or female, but hey 'each their own', right?

LI


So you're saying my particular kink is limiting an already small minority's niche offering for me?

hmmm...hey I'm unique Hooray!

...hey I'm alone

A small niche, because there is a lack of understanding

Eh, you're not alone Veroe, of course that also means your not technically unique. But we're a rather smaller portion of the community.

I wouldn't go that far, if you look in the personals, I bet you will see plenty guys looking for woman to be their domme, but then again, they are probably wanna be's

 

[yeishia]

Veroe

I think that one who submits freely and unconditionally to another thereby giving full control and trust to their dominant partner is a very strong individual indeed. Such a symbiotic relationship is pure perfection.

Any wimp of course can submit simply because they are forced to.

Sadism, Bitching etc., are bells and whistles designed to enhance the experience.

If that is all your Dominant has..then I suggest finding another one, a true Dominant, perhaps one with more experience or who isn't merely a wanna be.


My two cents…

 

[Light Ice]

Veroe

I think that one who submits freely and unconditionally to another thereby giving full control and trust to their dominant partner is a very strong individual indeed. Such a symbiotic relationship is pure perfection.

Any wimp of course can submit simply because they are forced to.

Sadism, Bitching etc., are bells and whistles designed to enhance the experience.

If that is all your Dominant has..then I suggest finding another one, a true Dominant, perhaps one with more experience or who isn't merely a wanna be.


My two cents…

I go the other way. Sexual submission and complete submission are entirely different things. The former is a matter of preference. The latter involves over compensation and a lack of accountability almost always. Two broken people fitting together is fine. It just doesn't change the fact they are fundamentally broken.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Veroe

I think that one who submits freely and unconditionally to another thereby giving full control and trust to their dominant partner is a very strong individual indeed. Such a symbiotic relationship is pure perfection.

Any wimp of course can submit simply because they are forced to.

Sadism, Bitching etc., are bells and whistles designed to enhance the experience.

If that is all your Dominant has..then I suggest finding another one, a true Dominant, perhaps one with more experience or who isn't merely a wanna be.


My two cents…

Wait- define "wimp" in terms of gender. I need it clarified.

I go the other way. Sexual submission and complete submission are entirely different things. The former is a matter of preference. The latter involves over compensation and a lack of accountability almost always. Two broken people fitting together is fine. It just doesn't change the fact they are fundamentally broken.

You're making two points here, I think.
You think complete submission is "over compensation..."
Okay, before I leap to any general conclusions... elaborate.

 

[Light Ice]

Wait- define "wimp" in terms of gender. I need it clarified.



You're making two points here, I think.
You think complete submission is "over compensation..."
Okay, before I leap to any general conclusions... elaborate.

Submitting sexually, or engaging in power games, is an expression of sexuality. I'm defining this foremost in order to place emphasis on the contrast.

Submitting entirely, which involves surrendering your decision making over to another human being in aspects beyond your sexuality, is unhealthy. Attempting to remove yourself from your responsibilities by placing them on another's shoulders is inherently false and inherently irresponsible.

That does not take any strength. The only thing that kind of submission takes is a degree of selfishness and lack of respect inherent either through mental illness or total and complete disregard.

The "utter submissive" in this case is -broken- as a person.

The Dominant who takes on that kind of charge? He's just as broken. There are dynamics in this kind of relationship that are clearly, blatantly, unhealthy and they manifest strongly in the "Dominant" party. Typically, the desire to control everything from eating habits to wardrobe manifests itself as a form of insecurity. The desire to be depended on for everything, to be needed to such an extreme, is in itself definitive of insecurity. Malicious behavior to express affection, or to illicit the forced sensation of need, is based almost entirely on insecurity.

----------------------------------------------

I'm condemning a submission that, from what I've come to understand, is remarkably rare not only in "common" society but in the BDSM community as well.

I'm not attempting to condemn the community as a whole and I absolutely believe that there are many levels of healthy submission and domination that are expressed, many of which I've no interest and no comfort level with.

I'm also attempting to be gender neutral because I do not believe that mental illness, or health, is gender specific and I certainly do not believe that one gender is more inclined to practice their interests in a healthy way than the other.