A warning

[Neoapril]

This is about cars, so if you don't own one, or you know everything there is to know about them, feel free to pass this up. I want to save you guys the money, heartache, and trouble that I am going through.

My car is in the shop right now, and my husband and I are facing at least a $1,200 repair bill! And not through any fault of our own. We bought this car new, 6 years ago. Always took it to the dealer to do the required maintenance things to it. Last year, we did the 60,000 mile stuff, and the timing belt was changed.

On Monday, less than 20,000 miles later, the timing belt broke. Unknown to us, on certain engines, when the timing belt breaks, it creates an imbalance in the engine, frequently resulting in the valves and pistons crashing into each other, causing, in the worst cases, massive engine damage!!

Not all engines are designed this way, though. Off the top of my head, this is a partial list of the ones to watch out for. Hyundai, except for 3.0L, ALL Hondas, ALL Nissans, most Toyotas, ALL Porsches, I think ALL Volvo's. If I can find the whole list, I will post it here. If you are concerned, as you should be, you should ask a mechanic (or several) about this. If I had known about this possibility, I would not have bought this car!

If I have left out any pertinent information, please feel free to add it. I would also like your opinions. (sympathy never hurts, either) I hope I haven't come off sounding hysterical, but I AM mad! We will manage, as we always have before. If I can save anybody else this awful experience, then that's worth the aggravation of trying to find the right words for this post! Thanks for reading.

 

[Sonora]

You don't drive much, do you? I have a 6 1/2 year old Toyota Celica that has 123,000 miles on it. I just took it in Saturday for the 60,000 mile thingy. They gave me a loaner and I took off to the mall. When I got back and was paying my bill, I took a look at it and noticed that there was no timing belt listed. I asked the clerk about it and was told to talk to the service guys. I asked why they didn't do the timing belt and was told that was separate. They don't usually do that at the same time as the rest of the 60,000 stuff.

He then said 'you have a Camry don't you'?

(Me)-"No, I have a Celica."

(Him)-Well, there's nothing to worry about, on both of them the engine stops if the belt breaks. Just get it done next time you have the oil changed.

Now what made me a little angry about the whole thing is that I now have a list of what gets done at what milage. The only difference that I can find between the 30,000 mile stuff and the 60,000 mile stuff is on the 30,000 they 'replace non-platinum spark plugs'. On the 60,000 they 'replace spark plugs'. Well that and $80.00 more for the 60,000. If I ever get off of work in time, I'm planning on calling to see if they listed everything or maybe left something off the 60,000.

Now I'm just hoping that this guy was telling me straight that it won't really cause any damage if it would break before I can get back over to get it changed.

Anyway, thanks for the warning!

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Sonora:
(Him)-Well, there's nothing to worry about, on both of them the engine stops if the belt breaks. Just get it done next time you have the oil changed.

First a caveat: My father was a certified Master Service Technician for GM cars for thrity years. That makes me as mechanical as a preacher's kid is righteous. You could say that my Dad was the prototypical 'Mr. Goodwrench.'

However, you don't live around someone like my Dad for twenty years, and not learn something, so...

Timing belts are not normally what is called a 'time change item'. NeoApril's was probably changed at the 60,000 mile check because it was worn and causing timing problems. (or because the mechanic figured to make a few extra bucks.) If your engine does have a belt as opposed to a chain, then it probably should be listed as an 'inspect and replace as required' item. Chains are only inspected and changed when they are causing timing problems or when other maintenance is required in that area.

On any overhead cam engine, the timing belt or chain is what turns the camshaft to open and close the valves at the proper time. If your car is sitting still when it fails, then the engine just stops.

If, on the other hand, your car is in gear and moving when it fails, the only thing that stops right away, is the camshaft. Thus leaving the valves in whatever position they were in when the camshaft stopped turning. The rest of the engine keeps turning because of the momentum of the car keeps turning the wheels, which turn the turns the transmission, which turns the crankshaft and pistons, smashing the valves which are no longer moving out of the way.

Manual transmissions will turn the engine over much more efficiently thatn an automatic transmission will, but either will turn the engine enough to damage the valves and pistons.

Any 'overhead cam' engine is vulnerable to this kind of failure. Those with timing belts as opposed to timing chains are more vulnerable because the belts aren't as durable as the chains.

The potential for this kind of problem should NOT be a reason to avoid a car though. OHC engines are so popular, because they are more efficent and reliable than other types of engines.

My personal opinion, is that NeoApril's problem was the result of a defect in the new belt, or more probably a belt that was improperly tensioned when installed. It's not something that can be proven, but It's typical of the poor maintenance that seems to be the norm in this day and age.

 

[Magic Merlin]

Thank you for that information Harold. That is very useful for me.

I too suspect NeoApril's problem was more the result of an improperly installed timing belt than anything else. But is there any recourse against the mechanic? It is a very difficult thing to prove.

You have my sympathy NeoApril....Thats one of the reasons I try to know as much as I can about my cars. And thanks again Harold, you told me things I did not know about overhead cams.

MM

 

[Hurley International]

Thats why I only drive a dodge durango (2000) and a 1999 Bmw 318si and when i ma not in casts a 99 Ducati

 

[Sonora]

Thanks for the info, Weird Harold. Now can you put it in English?

I understand you're saying that IF a belt were to break while driving, that the pistons keep moving which will smash the valves. Now my question is, how is this different from what happened to April? Or is this exactly what happened to April? Then my question is, what is the other possibility. April says that not all engines are designed the same way.

[This message has been edited by Sonora (edited 06-01-2000).]

 

[Neoapril]

Here's that link that I mentioned. http://www.autosite.com/garage/repairqa/ques059.asp I don't know how current the information is, though.

Sonora, that is exactly what happened to my poor car! Driving, engine stopped, timing belt broke, resulting in valve and (maybe piston) damage, just to put it simply.

I'm pretty sure this type of thing doesn't happen all that often, but when it does, it's such a surprise. And I don't know where we're gonna get the money to fix it. Probably a loan. Yuck, more debt!

 

[Bigdog]

Neoapril, I feel your pain. I went to hell and back with my Aerostar and the transmission. There may be hope for you, though. You mentioned that you took your car to the dealer for all the regular interval maintenance. Was the timing belt changed at the dealer also? If so, you may be able to plead your case ot them. Start with the service manager and be aggressive, stand up for yourself and don't be bullied. If that doesn't get you what you want, ask for the number of the district representative. This person has the clout to waive charges on almost anything. Ask them if there are any recalls or service updates relating to timing belt replacement. Also ask them about a "hidden warranty", they may play dumb but some do exist (especially on Toyota).

It can be scary facing down some of these people but you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Keep in mind one of the top reasons people return to a particular dealer is brand loyalty and they know it. Making you a happy customer usually makes you a return customer.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Sonora:
Thanks for the info, Weird Harold. Now can you put it in English?

Sure, I can give you an explanation in smaller words, but there'd be a lot more of them. I rather do it via e-mail so I don' clutter the baord with a long post. Follow th link to my e-mail address, and send me yours.

A better explanation of valves and pistons and such can probably be found in the Young Peoples Library nearest you. The Magic Schoolbus series has a good episode on how how engines work.

I've found that the books written to explain things to children are usually pretty good sources for adults who just need an overview of a subject without too many details.

Originally posted by Sonora:
Then my question is, what is the other possibility. April says that not all engines are designed the same way.

Engines that have timing belts are usually what are called Overhead Cam (OHC) engines, meaning the camshaft is in the top of the engine and moves the valves directly.

Engines that are not OHC use push rods and rocker arms to transfer the motion of the camshaft to the valves.

Essentially that boils down to OHC engines have fewer moving parts to get out of kilter. That's why I said before they are generally more reliable than other types of engines.

NeoApril's problem is something that can happen to any engine although it's something that OHC engines are just a bit more prone to have happen.

When it happens to other types of engines it often does more damage than it does to an OHC, usually trashing all of the pistons and valves instead of just one or two.

 

[Sonora]

I think that I'm beginning to understand. It sounds like there is no engine that will come through this 'uninjured'.

I am still a little confused when you said: "Essentially that boils down to OHC engines have fewer moving parts to get out of kilter. That's why I said before they are generally more reliable than other types of engines.

NeoApril's problem is something that can happen to any engine although it's something that OHC engines are just a bit more prone to have happen."

It sounds like OHC engines are maybe overall more reliable, but are a little more prone to this particular problem. The good news being that it's probably cheaper to fix??

Again, thanks for the education!!

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Sonora:
It sounds like OHC engines are maybe overall more reliable, but are a little more prone to this particular problem. The good news being that it's probably cheaper to fix??

Cheaper in the number of parts that are damaged, but an engine rebuild is expensive no matter how many parts are needed. Most of the cost is labor.

As far as the OHC engines being more prone to this particular problem, it's only by a small margin really. There are so many factors that determine how reliable any given engine is that it's impossible to predict when and how it will fail.

If you follow the periodic maintenance recommendations in the owner's manual, and can find a reliable mechanic, then most engines will last longer than the suspension and body do.

The most important thing is the oil changes. If most of your driving is in the city and/or short trips, then you should have the oil changed about twice as often as recommended.

The link that NeoApril provided has a description of what happenes to a timing belt and why it should be changed. MAke sure that you tell your mechanic that you want to see the old parts, and then make sure he explains just exactly what was wrong with them before you pay your bill. If what he says doesn't make sense to you, just nod wisely. Then take the old parts to another mechanic and ask him to explain why they needed changing.

When you find one who will take the time to explain things so you can understand them, then give him (or her) your business.

 

[Neoapril]

I will be updating this thread as things progress. Just in case anybody's still reading! Today's update.

We have gone to visit the local dealer, and they were very sympathetic and cooperative. They gave us the number to customer service and we are attempting to work the problem through them, and hopefully the district manager will get involved at some point.

What complicates this situation even further, is the fact that we bought this car while in Germany through an American auto broker, and had all maintenance work done through a German dealership, with all receipts written in German. Not much of a problem for us, as we remember what was done in most cases, and can read some German.

Weird Harold, the timing belt was on the list of things to be "fiddled" with on the 60,000 mile check. It is listed as replace. No questions asked. Unfortunately, we didn't verify that it actually was replaced, as we trusted the mechanic. Maybe not a good thing, but where do you draw the line at checking everybody's work? And moving time is a big stressed out time, especially doing an overseas move.

Sorry, don't mean to come off as testy. Now, on further reflection on this whole situation, I think that the cost of repairs should be factored into the car buying decision, along with the cost of insurance, gas mileage, horse power, and of course, looks. Since the timing belt failure is such a rare occurence(sp?), I can't state that it should be one's only criteria in choosing a car. Yikes! Now my posts are starting to look more like Felix's in length! I think I'll stop here.

 

[Unclebill]

April, first, it seems most cars today are designed with OHC engines. And frankly I see no reason to avoid the OHC engine.

Second, on some cars it IS a periodic replacement. On my Volvo it is at 60K intervals. On a Volvo diesel I had several years ago, it was spec'd at 75K until they found thru empirical data that failures typically occurred between 68-75K. The interval was dropped to 60K. So while not all manufacturers may put a specific replacement interval, some do.

Third, due to the design of the specific engine, not OHC engines in general, there may or may not be massive damage upon breakage of the timing belt.

A friend who dove a Ford Pinto (circa 1985) had a timing belt failure and his engine stopped. His only problem was that it concurred going UP the slope on San Diego's Coronado bridge.

Another car I saw, a Volvo diesel (fortunately NOT mine) had the same failure. Among the damage was a broken cam shaft (a steel rod about 1/2" diameter).

So the replacement of yours at 60K sounds practical and reasonable. If the dealer replaced it with a new belt, odds are the new belt was defective, improperly installed or damaged during installation causing the failure.

In any case, it should be entirely reasonable to expect the new belt to last for the same lifetime as the original unless your were specifically and explicitly informed to the contrary (which I find highly unlikely). Therefore, the dealership/manufacturer should take care of the ensuing damage as a warranty matter since the new part they installed resulted in the damage.

If the local company representatives, customer service people are willing to do this, call the manufacturer's customer service people and as a last resort, find a lawyer.

If you have to pay for anything out of this (and I disagree you should), it would be a rental replacement while they repair the damage they caused. And a GOOD outfit will provide you a replacement vehicle while yours is repaired. It's only good business sense.

Presuming they used OEM parts, it ultimately comes back to the manufacturer.

Best of luck and remember, "illegitimi non carborundum".

Bill

[This message has been edited by unclebill (edited 06-03-2000).]

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Neoapril:
Unfortunately, we didn't verify that it actually was replaced, as we trusted the mechanic. Maybe not a good thing, but where do you draw the line at checking everybody's work? And moving time is a big stressed out time, especially doing an overseas move.

I always specify that I be shown the parts, even with a mechanic I know and trust. In my case, it's more for my information than a matter of mistrust if I know the mechanic. If the work is done by a new mechanic at a shop I've had a good results from it's to keep them honest.

I've learned the hard way not to trust the certification of technicians as a guide to who does good work. I had to resort to a letter to the BBB, Head of GM's certification program, and an info copy to the maintenance manager of the dealership to get results on a problem that was caused by careless maintenance. I eventually found out that in spite of the higher rates for the services of a certified technician, the work was performed by an apprentice.

I have since found an independent shop that will even allow me to watch and chat with the mechanic occasionally.

I can sympathize with the problems associated with an overseas move. In 21 Yrs, 3 Mos, and 3 days service with the USAF, I moved 22 times at goverment expense. Finding a reliable mechanic/shop at a new duty station can be a real pain.

The only thing you can do is assume that until proven different, that all dealerships and most independent shops are going to try and get the maximum amount of money for the minimum amount of work. Until you know the mechanic who will actually work on your car by name the only safe thing is to assume the worst.

I really hate to malign all automotive service technicians like that, but it seems that service and pride in quality workmanship have become very rare things in the last twenty years or so.

 

[April]

Here we go again.

 

[Ezzy]

From memory...

Cam belts carry a warranty somewhere in the small print.

If you have the car serviced as the book tells you and have it fully stamped, I would complain to the manufacturer, just on the off chance.

I have heard good and bad stories about goodwill received for things breaking on cars.

BTW there is a wonderful kind of drive called desmodronic, this is available on OHC engines and drives the cam/s by gear.
No matter what happens you are not going to need to replace valves and pistons if this kind of engine suffers a stoppage.

Give them a try by phone etc and see what you can get, may be something may be nothing, but if you don't try you can bet it will be nothing.




EZ http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/cwm2/sleep.gif

 

[April]

Sorry for not being clear. This time it's the husband person's truck. This shit really sucks.

*ducking and covering even tighter and wondering what's next*

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Thankyou for clearing that up dearest...

You AIM tonight?

 

[April]

No, not tonight. I'm tired and I guess you could say soul sick. I'm afraid of what might be coming next. I know the cycle all too well. Although there is always the hope that this time it won't be all that bad.

I'm going to bed in a few minutes. How about tomorrow? What's the time difference?

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Tomorrow after tea your time... I should be on. Think happy thoughts and look after yourself.

 

[April]

Thank you. Tomorrow is my day off, so I will be here off and on most of the day. I think some sleep will help a lot. 'Night.

 

[Closet Desire]

Sorry WH...

...gonna disagree with you on this one. I owned a number of Hondas, including one I ran to 329,000 miles before selling off as well as several other cars using timing belts. I can assure you they are not an inspect only item because the portion which breaks, the steel cords inside the nylon, are not visible. Some are replace at 60,000 and some are replace at 100,000. I did it religiously because after replacing two valves on my sister's escort I decided I didn't want to do the same job on my car. One other thing I can assure you of, there are many models of engine in which the valves do protrude down into the motion area of the pistons (older Ford escorts a prime example) as well as many Honda models. When the belt breaks, the valves stop, the piston moves up on inertia, and thunk...the valve stem is bent.

It's a helluva design.

 

[Never]

Oh, I see - this thread was started before I was even on the board. I wondered where Killer had wondered off to.