A Voting Question

[Fflow]

I am relatively new to posting poetry here on Lit. There is something I simply don't understand:

When I read someone else's poetry, I tend to vote if I'm moved by it in some way, if it evoked a feeling or idea in me. If I feel that a poem is flawed in some way I either don't vote or, if I feel I have some meaningful insight, I'll vote and leave a comment with a constructive suggestion. Simply giving a poem a bad rating seems, in a way, needlessly punitive, especially considering the deeply personal, abstract, and subjective nature of poetry.

I hope that, as creative and expressive artists all, we can and should support each other in expressing our highest selves and not use the tools Literotica has given us to bitch-slap each other.

I'd love to hear what you think about this!

Peace.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I tend to feel that if someone turns voting on when he or she posts a poem, it's because he or she wants some sort of objective scale against which to measure the poem. He or she wants to know how the poem impacts (positively or negatively) on the readers.

When I vote, I do it using the entire 1-5 range. If I only voted when I felt the poems were 5-worthy, the entire system would be meaningless, don't you think?

 

[Ninja Nookie]

Voting

You notice how you will have several hundred reads and only a few votes? I am one of those who read only a select few authors anyway but when a poem catches my eye I will read it. If I get through it, I still rarely leave a comment or vote for the time factor. If I am moved then I will leave a good vote and comment. I see how the full spectrum is essential (1-5) but I consider any thing less than a 4 damaging to their rating. So I will only take the time to leave high marks and praise and don't waste my time on writes that do not interest me. That is my own philosophy of course.

Nin

 

[Fflow]

Voting Discussed

I am not saying that one should never cast votes less than 5, but I think that if one sees problems with a poem and feels moved to make a lower vote, one should take a moment and share some insight into what didn't work. It takes but a moment to post a comment, even if it is something like "too rhyme heavy" or "I've no idea what you're talking about". That way the vote has some value. It has meaning. The writer, if so moved, can take those comments and improve or at least reflect on their work. I guess that, when someone says "I don't like it," my natural inclination is to ask "why?" Not to be contrary or combative, but so that I can learn and improve. Without constructive, honest, and open feedback we can never hope to grow.

I don't mind getting a "1" (and I've got em, believe me) if it includes an honest expression of their thoughts and feelings. One comment on a story I wrote was "makes me want to puke!"

I've also received 5's and, frankly, I'd love comments from them as well. It is good to know what works, and what doesn't.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

 

[sandspike]

I think somethings......

and when I do, I think not enough people vote and those that do throw out too
many fives. I don't go below a three and have only done a few of those. If
I hate it or don't understand it I leave it as is. You should find say 5 or 6 poets
here that give you constant feedback. I think that is the best kind. Input
from someone who has read you for a while.

 

[brightlyiburn]

I think poetry is tough to vote on, because so much is open to interpertation. Whether or not you like the poem is one thing. However, since most of the time you're only reading it, rather than hearing it out loud, you can lose so much of it.
I had someone send me this big long thing about what to change in my poem. I completely ignored it. Poetry is not the same as story writing. It's closer to art than writing, in many ways. Just because a poem does not follow a normal formula doesn't make it bad. Often readers of a poem derive different meanings from it than the writer. That is the intent. With a story this is a point you want to get across in a certain way. With a poem, you can be hinting at so many things.
Guess what I'm saying is that I don't like to judge poetry I can't hear. I know what I'm reading in my head isn't necessarily the way its supposed to sound. And what I feel is the meaning isn't necessarily what the meaning was intended to be. So if I don't like it, I just keep my opinions to myself, because I don't feel right telling someone to change something I'm not even sure I understand.

 

[Fflow]

Well Said, BB!

I agree with you. Poetry is extremely personal and subjective, both for the writer and reader. What one person finds profound and moving may be seen as trite and boring by another. I don't question any of that.

My sole point in all of this is that if one is moved to vote for a poem, I believe it important to do so with a comment. Ideally, the comment should be meaningful, either pointing out your subjective interpretation, your opinion of what works or doesn't, etc.

I'm not saying that you have to write a critique, or spell out sweeping revisions if you feel there are problems but, at the very least, say something meaningful and useful. "Good Imagery", "Too Many Metaphors", or "I found the broken rhythm disruptive."

Doesn't that seem reasonable?

 

[tarablackwood22]

I had someone send me this big long thing about what to change in my poem. I completely ignored it.

Brightly,

I just finished reading this thread that you started. It seems odd to me that you would post a poem on a poetry feedback board asking for people's thoughts, and when they send them to you, completely ignore them!

That seems contradictory to me, unless you expected a lot of "Oh, gee whiz, that is just super" replies. The thread you started implies a certain concern with the quality of the work you opened for opinion. To now tell everyone afterward you ignore their responses if they make suggestions just confuses me to no end.

I agree with you. Poetry is extremely personal and subjective, both for the writer and reader. What one person finds profound and moving may be seen as trite and boring by another. I don't question any of that.

My sole point in all of this is that if one is moved to vote for a poem, I believe it important to do so with a comment. Ideally, the comment should be meaningful, either pointing out your subjective interpretation, your opinion of what works or doesn't, etc.

I'm not saying that you have to write a critique, or spell out sweeping revisions if you feel there are problems but, at the very least, say something meaningful and useful. "Good Imagery", "Too Many Metaphors", or "I found the broken rhythm disruptive."

Doesn't that seem reasonable?

Fflow,

That does seem very reasonable. I always tried to leave comments when I voted, comments which were reflective of the vote itself. But I don't think you will get that from everyone -- but the willingness you show to open yourself to critique should bring with it comments of a higher quality and honesty. Many quality poets here do not critique because their constructive comments are often taken in the wrong light and not in the helpful air with which they were offered.

I do not agree, however, with your answer to brightly that what seems profound to one can seem trite to another, with the implication that both of them are right. One of them is most surely wrong, and that statement is an open door for writers who refuse all constructive criticism and google over mindless praise.

 

[Reltne]

. . .
I do not agree, however, with your answer to brightly that what seems profound to one can seem trite to another, with the implication that both of them are right. One of them is most surely wrong, and that statement is an open door for writers who refuse all constructive criticism and google over mindless praise.

I googled over mindless praise and got 80,800 hits.

 

[brightlyiburn]

Brightly,

I just finished reading this thread that you started. It seems odd to me that you would post a poem on a poetry feedback board asking for people's thoughts, and when they send them to you, completely ignore them!

That seems contradictory to me, unless you expected a lot of "Oh, gee whiz, that is just super" replies. The thread you started implies a certain concern with the quality of the work you opened for opinion. To now tell everyone afterward you ignore their responses if they make suggestions just confuses me to no end.

It's one thing to want to know if someone likes what you do. If someone sends me this big long thing telling me to re-write my poem so it will be how they think it should be, yeah, I'm going to ignore it. It's one thing to make suggestions. And while I may not really like to myself, that isn't going to stop others. And I see nothing wrong with wanting to know what people think. But I'm not going to pay attention to someone who is basically telling me to change my poem so much that I no longer recognize it as mine. Little suggestions don't bother me, but I think it's awfully pretentious to act like you know all the best ways to write someone else's poem.
I simply don't pay attention to someone who writes something that reads like they looked at your work for the sole reason of tearing it apart. You start listening to that stuff, you lose your fearlessness to write. That's why it's hard to find good writers.

 

[tarablackwood22]

It's one thing to want to know if someone likes what you do. If someone sends me this big long thing telling me to re-write my poem so it will be how they think it should be, yeah, I'm going to ignore it. It's one thing to make suggestions. And while I may not really like to myself, that isn't going to stop others. And I see nothing wrong with wanting to know what people think. But I'm not going to pay attention to someone who is basically telling me to change my poem so much that I no longer recognize it as mine. Little suggestions don't bother me, but I think it's awfully pretentious to act like you know all the best ways to write someone else's poem.
I simply don't pay attention to someone who writes something that reads like they looked at your work for the sole reason of tearing it apart. You start listening to that stuff, you lose your fearlessness to write. That's why it's hard to find good writers.

That's what I thought.

Let me go read your poem..........

Oh, gee whiz. It's just super.

 

[annaswirls]

millions of people buy Hallmark cards... they still suck

Of course it is nice to get feedback.

And of course poetry is subjective.

But sometimes a poem sucks as a poem.
That is the honest truth.
By any standards of critiquing poetry, it sucks.
Sure the sentiment might be moving, touching, personal, sure the authors sister might frame in on her wall, but as a poem.... You know.

here is a poem that

s lurp
u
c
k
s lurp ​

please give it a 1 or maybe a 2 for the cute factor


Am I a snob? Maybe. I know it is often times it is MY poem that sucks. I count myself in.

And sometimes I know the author has no intention of doing anything about it because they like their poetry just as is. Which is great and wonderful, but you only get to vote on your own poem one time, that is where you express your opinion on the poem, and the rest of the readers get to do the same.



It has been said that people's friends all give 5's and glowing praise. The public comment section is more of a cheering squad.

I think that is fine for boosting confidence, everyone needs the support of friends, but sucks because it gives a seriously flawed rating system.

So when someone says that anyone who votes should leave a comment, sure that would be nice if we had all the time in the world. It is so EASY to leave a nice comment. Sometimes I read the poems from the day before that got H's, because that is supposed to be a sign of a poem that is somehow superior to the others--and I see that they are no better, then the poem above and below it without a single comment. I am not going to give this poem a 5 just because it is popular. I will vote on it as if I were the first person voting.



2 reasons why I often vote but do not often leave comments on poems whose author I am not familiar with (don't know what they want in way of critique):

1. I want to write a helpful comment but do not have the time to write a comment that is cushioned so thickly as to not offend the poet.

It has been said that comments that offer too much critique are IGNORED. They are the ones that should be attended to. Some tried and true, talented poets give UNBIASED suggestions that should be listened to.... the poets that give these suggestions should be teaching poetry classes and getting paid for their comments.

2. Many people who complain about not getting comments, or wish for more rarely leave any on other poets work. I count myself in this group on many occasions.

I think if you want to get comments you need to give them.

And that does not mean, if you suck my balls, I will suck yours,

it means if people want the benefits of feedback, honest feedback, they should be willing to give it. I do not always have time. Most people do not have the time. But to vote takes a second. And it leaves a mark of my opinion of the poem. I often vote 5's without saying DAMN THIS IS THE GREATEST POEM EVER. My 5 says that.

This is my honest, uncushioned, unedited opinion.



Fire at will.

 

[brightlyiburn]

That's what I thought.

Let me go read your poem..........

Oh, gee whiz. It's just super.

Oh, look. I guessed you wouldn't actually read what I wrote, and I was right! Big surprise.

To reiterate: It does not bother me if people make suggestions, however if they tell me to rewrite my poem to the point that I don't recognize it as mine, I will ignore that. Someone else DOES NOT know how to write my poem better than me. If I were to follow the instructions of someone telling me how to rewrite my WHOLE poem, I would never evolve as the poet I could be.

I'm sorry you can't grasp the concept of doing things so that they bear the stamp of your own personality. Maybe you don't have one.

 

[Fflow]

Fire at Will

Anna, thanks for your thoughtful and considered response. You wrote quite a lot and, in the time it took you to do so you could have reviewed and commented on a number of poems.... Ok, so I'm being a smart-ass. Sorry!

Seriously, though, who the hell is Will?

Ok, no really... This is the point: There are poems that suck. Some of mine, even ones I've posted, suck. There is some clear reason WHY they suck, though. Like I said previously, one does not need to write a dissertation in a comment to convey some meaningful tidbit to the author. Any number of brief, concise comments could be very helpful.

If you have time to sit around and read poetry on Lit, and you have time to vote, then you have time to type in a few words in the comment section.

Also, sorry to disagree with the previous post, but human consciousness is very subjective, perhaps more so than we care to admit. I, myself, have had both very positive and very negative responses to my work and I believe that both were equally honest and valid. I don't care if someone loves or hates my work, as long as they can give me some understanding of the 'why'.

Thanks, sincerely, for engaging in this stimulating thread!!

 

[Fflow]

Brightly...

Dear Brightly,

Please... This is exactly what I'm talking about. If I were to comment on your poem, I'd probably not give you advice about how to fix it. Instead, I'd give you my personal and completely subjective reaction to it and, maybe, give you specific comments about what works, and what doesn't, for me. I wouldn't dream of saying how to "fix" it, however. Poetry is art. It is personal expression. When we put it into the public forum of lit, we are exposing ourselves to everyone's reactions. That's why, as authors and readers, we ourselves must agree that we support each other, not with blind praise or harsh criticism, but with kind and honest, meaningful feedback. Otherwise, we might as well turn off voting and comments on our posts.

Much love to all.

fflow.

 

[Angeline]

I always check the vote and public comment boxes when I submit a poem; it's pretty well automatic to me at this point. I am interested in the objective ratings my stuff gets, but I try to take into account that people vote what they vote for lots of reasons, some having nothing to do with whether or not they think I wrote a good poem.

I know some--maybe a lot--of the poems I've written here and elsewhere aren't that good. When I get some objective distance from them and go back to read them, I'm often appalled by how badly I can mix up what I really want to say. And it never fails to fascinate me that many poems I think are real throwaways get raves. Does that happen to you? Anyone?

 

[CharleyH]

Poetry is extremely personal and subjective, both for the writer and reader. What one person finds profound and moving may be seen as trite and boring by another. I don't question any of that.

My sole point in all of this is that if one is moved to vote for a poem, I believe it important to do so with a comment. Ideally, the comment should be meaningful, either pointing out your subjective interpretation, your opinion of what works or doesn't, etc.

I'm not saying that you have to write a critique, or spell out sweeping revisions if you feel there are problems but, at the very least, say something meaningful and useful. "Good Imagery", "Too Many Metaphors", or "I found the broken rhythm disruptive."

Doesn't that seem reasonable?

I disagree that poetry is 'extremely' personal, and by this I mean completely subjective and emotinal. It is no more or less subjective and personal than perhaps a story I might write. It is merely shorter, more compact, and hopefully best structured, or a least structured in a way that enhances the content.

Anyhow, once a poet puts a poem up into a public forum, (whether personal or not) and requests feedback and votes, they are opening themselves to a gamut of criticism, not just subjective feedback like 'god, that made me cum all over the place', but hopefully objective feedback about structure and semiotics.

Where was I going with this? Oh, well, some people like to be criticized in public and some people don't? I have completely been sidetracked. I'll go now.

 

[impressive]

Where was I going with this? Oh, well, some people like to be criticized in public and some people don't? I have completely been sidetracked. I'll go now.

Personally, I'd rather have the gushing praise on the public comment forum and the constructive criticism via e-mail or PM. That's just me. However, that's how I tend to vote/comment, too. If I vote 3 or lower, I'll send an explanatory e-mail ... and (coward that I am) typically anonymously unless I really know that the author will not lash out in retaliation.

Public flagellation just ain't my thang -- giving or receiving.

 

[tarablackwood22]

Dear Brightly,

Please... This is exactly what I'm talking about. If I were to comment on your poem, I'd probably not give you advice about how to fix it. Instead, I'd give you my personal and completely subjective reaction to it and, maybe, give you specific comments about what works, and what doesn't, for me. I wouldn't dream of saying how to "fix" it, however. Poetry is art. It is personal expression. When we put it into the public forum of lit, we are exposing ourselves to everyone's reactions. That's why, as authors and readers, we ourselves must agree that we support each other, not with blind praise or harsh criticism, but with kind and honest, meaningful feedback. Otherwise, we might as well turn off voting and comments on our posts.

Much love to all.

fflow.

Fflow,

Your posts are very well-written, and display not only kindness but also a willingness toward discussion.

Here at literotica, we have 19 year olds tearing poems from their spiral notebooks to post, and we also have experienced writers who have taught language on an undergraduate level……all on the same poetry board.

That is the point anna was trying to make when she said :

It has been said that comments that offer too much critique are IGNORED. They are the ones that should be attended to. Some tried and true, talented poets give UNBIASED suggestions that should be listened to.... the poets that give these suggestions should be teaching poetry classes and getting paid for their comments.

It DOES matter which one of those two extremes is standing in front of the room and which one is sitting in the chair listening.

Saying “Poetry is art” is fine, but that does not mean all poetry is good, nor does it mean that all judgments on quality are equal.

Honest feedback from a knowledgeable source can be honest and seem harsh at the same time, to untuned ears.

You can’t ask for feedback, and then whine about its depth. That makes no sense.

Like everywhere, some of the young and inexperienced realize how little they know, and they listen, while others don't realize it, so they talk, and excuse their ignorance with professions of personality, and defend themselves from just questions and criticism with insults.

In our world, some will grow and learn, and some will remain blind brats forever.

Welcome, Fflow, by the way….I should have said that before, but don’t think I did.

 

[Guest]

if you suck my balls, I will suck yours,

and that's all I saw

 

[minsue]

I shudder to stick my two cents in here, but I just can't help myself.

I am, at best, a mediocre poet. Currently 6 out of 7 of my poems on here have Hs. Why? Because I'm active on the AH board and friends are kind. As good as it feels to see those lovely 5s come in, I cringe because I know they're not for the poem. They're for me. If I submitted under a different name, I would have very different scores. (I know because I have, just to check.)

I vote my conscience. I use the entire range of 1-5. It's rare for me to vote a 1, but I have done so and I'll very likely do it again. I wish others would do the same. If I didn't want someone's honest opinion, I wouldn't give the option to vote or to post PCs.

That said, I must admit that I did throw a lovely little hissy fit after the last brutally honest PC I received. It's silly, really, considering I don't think all that highly of the poem myself. I think it was the word "stuffy" that pushed me over the edge.



[brief threadjack]

Since I'm already here......*FLYINGLEAPINGTACKLEHUGS* Tara!!!!!!!!!!! How've you been?

[/threadjack]

 

[minsue]

and that's all I saw

.

 

[PatCarrington]

if you suck my balls, I will suck yours,

and that's all I saw

me too.

 

[flyguy69]

I know I ask a great deal of lit writers when I ask that comments be truely public, and I understand anyone's reluctance to critique another in full view, but I learn as much from the comments writers leave on other's poetry as on my own. Another poet's work is often easier to examine because I can more easily insulate myself from the emotion behind the words, as well as the attachment we all develop to our own clever phrasing.

When I read a poem I cannot help but form opinions on quality-- I look for genuineness in the sentiment, for clarity in the expression and for beauty in the language. It is then highly illuminating to learn how my opinion compares with other readers. Not out of some desire to form a wave of support or destruction, but rather to learn if the effect of the poem is broadly or narrowly exerted.

If I am alone in my opinion (and I often am) I do not conclude I am wrong, only that the poem under consideration affects me differently than others. If I regard a poem as beautiful, how could someone possibly tell me it is not? They are welcome to tell me my opinion is not thoroughly considered, or to challenge me to defend it, but it remains my opinion.

But part of "good poetry" is broad influence. If more people find true sentiment in my verse, if more people find greater clarity and beautiful language, I have written a better poem. The only way to know that is listen to the opinions of others, and especially to those that are themselves good poets because they are better attuned to these elements.

There is nothing inherently wrong with rejecting the input you get from others, but without it your poetry will remain very narrow in appeal.

 

[flyguy69]

But there is a great deal to be said for getting your balls sucked.