A troubling talk

Mensa

Non Compos Mentis
Joined
May 25, 2000
Posts
4,107
I had a disturbing conversation with a man the other day. He was an Arab, or perhaps I should say he was of Arab extraction because he was born in North America and was an editor of an Arab language newspaper.

He informed me that the predominant view in the Arab community was that the protestations that this was a war against terrorism and not against Islam were not wholly believed. He says that the community is willing to suspend disbelief for now but are waiting for confirmation.

I asked him what he meant by that? He said that it was strange that Usama bin Laden is now enemy number one, and Afghanistan is being bombed. Yesterday it was another Moslem nation, Iraq, and Saddam Hussein who was the main villain for America. The day before, it was Iran and the Ayatollah Khomeini. Before the Ayatollah, it was the Moslem nation of Libya and Qadaffi. Before Qadaffi it was Arafat and the Palestinians. Before Arafat it was Nasser and Egypt. He remarked how it was interesting that India and Pakistan both developed nuclear capabilities, yet it was the Moslem state of Pakistan that was sanctioned. That the world knows that Israel has a nuclear capability and no action was taken or even threatened.

I then asked him what he would consider proof of the claim that it truly was a war against terror and not against Islam? He laughed and said when the U.S. goes back to fighting the Colombian drug lords. Then he became serious and said that if President Bush was serious about helping to establish a viable Palestinian homeland, they might be less skeptical. He claims that the U.S. only seems to back Moslem regimes that serve America's purpose rather than the best interests of the people of those countries. Many Arab governments are holding onto power by using American-supplied weapons and American-trained troops to supress their own people. Without American backing the political power situation throughout the Middle-east would change radically.

I asked him if this wasn't just a case of political reality? The U.S. backs these regimes because of America's strategic needs not because of any admiration for them. Better a Devil you know than one you don't? He agreed that while this was probably true, it served to alienate many and cast the U.S. of A. in a very bad light. People don't tend to think in geo-political terms, they only know that they have unpopular overlords and that they stay in power because the Americans back them.

What I found disturbing was that I didn't know how to respond exactly. Had it been an ill-informed diatribe, I could have countered with a torrent of facts but what he said was basically true. It left me in despair that such a wrong impression could seem so right. That the anti-American zealots could muster such convincing arguments. I found the whole thing unsettling!
 
Golly, I wonder if it's a coincidence that all those mid-east countries he named are sponsors of terrorism...is it?

Did you ask him about the Moslems we defended in Kosovo, and Bosnia, and Mogadishu, and Saudi Arabia?
 
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A western view

Problem Child said:
Golly, I wonder if it's a coincidence that all those mid-east countries he named are sponsors of terrorism...is it?

Did you ask him about the Moslems we defended in Kosovo, and Bosnia, and Mogadishu, and Saudi Arabia?

Our view is that those countries are terrorism sponsors, but the Arab view is that they are freedom fighters forced into taking drastic actions.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter if you will!

You have a point about Yugoslavia but I'm sure he would say that of course you came to their defense, they weren't Arab were they? He also feels that Saudi Arabia is a classic example of the U.S. interests taking precedence over local wishes because apparently the Saudi royal family are considered interlopers and are not very popular.

I learned a lot from him about how the other side thinks and as I stated I found it very disturbing.
 
This is the contrast between the moral high ground and real world politics. Real world politics are messy.

Why are you so disturbed by it?
 
I would have asked this gentleman what freedom Qadaffi was fighting for when he illegally extended the border of Libya's water space from the universally accepted 12 mile norm to the astromical number he tried.

And who, exactly, was there in the Middle East to combat Hussein's invasion of Kuwait? There is not one Middle Eastern country that has the capability to do that. As well, the Americans received permission from Saudi Arabia to do that.

Granted, the US had absolutely no business forcing the Shah of Iran on the Iranian people in the 1950s only to secure oil rights from that country. But did it really validate taking innocent Americans hostage from the embassy, and holding them for over a year?

And in Lebannon.....in the 1980s it was common practice for Americans and Europeans to be taken off of the streets, held captive, and then murdered. Now, Lebannon was in the middle of a civil war - what good was accomplished with these acts?

Countries such as Lebannon, Syria, and Libya are known for harboring terrorists. That is well established fact. Countries such as Iran supply support for terrorists.

I have problems with your line "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter if you will!" A lot of problems.....just what type of "freedom" was being fought for when thousands of innocent American lives were lost on September 11? Was that not terror? Or was it simply men out to win their "freedom"?

Terror from any quarter should not be tolerated. Period. Whether it comes from Libya, Afganistan, Northern Ireland, or Indonesia. Remarkable how in that small sampling, completely off the top of my head, only one country was not an Islamic country?

Granted, there are 2 sides to every situation. But terror, and the killing of innocent lives, such as occurred on 9/11, must be stopped. No matter who the perpetrators are.
 
lazarus UK said:
This is the contrast between the moral high ground and real world politics. Real world politics are messy.

Why are you so disturbed by it?

I'm disturbed by the fact that the justification presented by the "other side" could seem so plausible and that is why so many are seduced by it. It takes a "true believer" to strap explosives to his own body and willingly detonate them. Whether we agree with them or not!
 
That "gentleman" may not connect that those named countries are usually the ones that start shit. It's like a third grade classroom where some idiot kid always starts crap and then when he is scolded for it, complains that everyone is picking on him.
 
SexyChele said:
I would have asked this gentleman what freedom Qadaffi was fighting for when he illegally extended the border of Libya's water space from the universally accepted 12 mile norm to the astromical number he tried.
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I hold no brief for "Gone Daffy" but even my own country Canada has extended their influence and control to the edge of the Continental Shelf. The old "twelve-mile" limit went by the boards ages ago.
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And who, exactly, was there in the Middle East to combat Hussein's invasion of Kuwait? There is not one Middle Eastern country that has the capability to do that. As well, the Americans received permission from Saudi Arabia to do that.
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Yes, they received permission from the Saudis. The same Saudis that are despised by many of their own people. The same Saudis who would be overthrown if not for their American patrons. Or so he claims.
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Granted, the US had absolutely no business forcing the Shah of Iran on the Iranian people in the 1950s only to secure oil rights from that country. But did it really validate taking innocent Americans hostage from the embassy, and holding them for over a year?
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Just one more example of why American Foreign policy should be scrutinized closer by the American people. Why is anti-Americanism so widespread and virulent?
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And in Lebannon.....in the 1980s it was common practice for Americans and Europeans to be taken off of the streets, held captive, and then murdered. Now, Lebannon was in the middle of a civil war - what good was accomplished with these acts?
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A civil war replete with atrocities. The Lebanese had lived for a long time in mutual harmony between Christians and Moslems until external influences upset the apple cart. It wasn't for domestic reasons that the war started. Certain elements felt Lebanese instability would work in their best interests.
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Countries such as Lebannon, Syria, and Libya are known for harboring terrorists. That is well established fact. Countries such as Iran supply support for terrorists.
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They may now but twas not always thus.
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I have problems with your line "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter if you will!" A lot of problems.....just what type of "freedom" was being fought for when thousands of innocent American lives were lost on September 11? Was that not terror? Or was it simply men out to win their "freedom"?
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You see it the same way I do. While we are in total agreement, others take a different view. It is this different view that could be the source of continuing unpleasantness.
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Terror from any quarter should not be tolerated. Period. Whether it comes from Libya, Afganistan, Northern Ireland, or Indonesia. Remarkable how in that small sampling, completely off the top of my head, only one country was not an Islamic country?
____________________________________________________

By rights Indonesia should not be included in that list. A Jewish professor fron Hebrew University told us something remarkable. He said that originally the Palestinians were not a terrorist organization. They were a guerrilla army and only targetted legitimate military targets, but were losing their war and getting less and less outside attention. They then made a fateful decision to attack the Israeli Olympic team because they felt that Israel had no right to be represented while the Palestinians were not. It was this action that delegitimized them internationally and turned them into terrorists. He also stated that it was the intifada that turned the trick for them and caused Israel grief internationally and it was the intifada that led to the peace talks.

It will be interesting to see what happens after bin Laden is either killed or captured. Will the war against terrorism continue or will the American people feel that now that the "Devil" is gone, the war is over?
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Granted, there are 2 sides to every situation. But terror, and the killing of innocent lives, such as occurred on 9/11, must be stopped. No matter who the perpetrators are.
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As I said, it will be interesting as to whether America is in this war for the long term or just until Usama bin Laden is put out of commission.
 
Re: A western view

Mensa said:

the Arab view is that they are freedom fighters forced into taking drastic actions.

Freedom fighters? More like maniacal cowards!

Bad enough those nutcases can't live in peace in their own part of the world, so filled with hate, breeding hate in their children, displaced anger disguised as righteousness. That isn't a fight for freedom ... it's mayhem. There is no virtue in murdering the innocent.

And THE BALLS OF THAT GUY exercising his freedom in America, while spewing his hate on our shores, inciting more fanatical lunatics.

LIKE IT OR LEAVE IT! ... simple as that.

It's time to pull in the welcome mat and point to the door.
 
Re: Re: A western view

Cherry said:


Freedom fighters? More like maniacal cowards!

Bad enough those nutcases can't live in peace in their own part of the world, so filled with hate, breeding hate in their children, displaced anger disguised as righteousness. That isn't a fight for freedom ... it's mayhem. There is no virtue in murdering the innocent.

And THE BALLS OF THAT GUY exercising his freedom in America, while spewing his hate on our shores, inciting more fanatical lunatics.

LIKE IT OR LEAVE IT! ... simple as that.

It's time to pull in the welcome mat and point to the door.

The truly disturbing thing is that he wasn't a fanatic. He was a rather sedate middle-class gentleman that you might see attending a Rotary Club or Lions Club meeting. Had he been impassioned I could have readily dismissed what he was saying by reasoning of his being radical. He wasn't, he never so much as raised his voice, he was completely calm and was telling me what the view was like from the other side.

It was his being so ordinary that alarmed me.
 
Sateema Lunasi said:
That "gentleman" may not connect that those named countries are usually the ones that start shit. It's like a third grade classroom where some idiot kid always starts crap and then when he is scolded for it, complains that everyone is picking on him.

Yes, but can you tell me why they "start shit"? They must have a reason, even if it only makes sense to them.
 
Oops, self-interest vs. morality

The real world option of terrorism is chosen by those who wish to make their enemies more repressive - and so mobilise the disaffected amongst their own people. Deeply cynical, but true.

If you are cynical enough, the events of September 11th make sense ...

1) Kill lots of Americans ... the more "innocent" the better

2) Encourage retaliation ... hopefully against the more "innocent" of your own people.

3) Some, at least, will feel that the retaliation against them was unfair - they are after all "innocent" - and feel angry towards the US

4) Which moves them a fraction towards your position.

Repeat.

Eventually no-one cares who's "innocent" or "guilty" and the people are behind you.

Such is the theory. Nasty isn't it?
 
lazarus UK said:
Oops, self-interest vs. morality

The real world option of terrorism is chosen by those who wish to make their enemies more repressive - and so mobilise the disaffected amongst their own people. Deeply cynical, but true.

If you are cynical enough, the events of September 11th make sense ...

1) Kill lots of Americans ... the more "innocent" the better

2) Encourage retaliation ... hopefully against the more "innocent" of your own people.

3) Some, at least, will feel that the retaliation against them was unfair - they are after all "innocent" - and feel angry towards the US

4) Which moves them a fraction towards your position.

Repeat.

Eventually no-one cares who's "innocent" or "guilty" and the people are behind you.

Such is the theory. Nasty isn't it?

The frightening part is that it works! The target of terrorism feels vulnerable and insists it must have more discretionary powers in order to keep the Nation safe. A rattled public thinks that this is reasonable and agrees. Legislation is passed that in saner times would never be tolerated.

Just look at some of the proposed legislation that has come out since "Terrible Tuesday" and realize that once it is enacted, it is difficult to repeal and could one day be abused to our regret.
 
'Fraid so,

Even the trivial is grist to the mill ...

For example, until very recently railway stations here had no litter bins - to stop the IRA putting bombs in them.

So you get dirty stations, not much but it all helps.
 
Any country with commercial and or political interests through the world will be found "at fault". Especially when they promote one tribe, clan, or faction over another. Look at how the British, French, and Dutch were treated in Ireland and India, Vietnam, and the south pacific islands.

When Mohammed, the peace of Allah be upon him, spread Islaam throughout the middle east and north Africa, all the way to Spain and Yugoslavia, etc., he did it with fire and sword. It is the way of the world, not the way of the Lord.

In the early 1940's the Jews regularly blew up British police and military outposts and barracks. Now they complain when they are attacked the same way.

There is not one country in the world, including Switzerland, which is "innocent" of socio-political manipilation of other countries.

We in the U.S. of A. must prepare for a long fight. It will be hard to bring our peoples together, but it must be done if we are to survive. The U.S. of A., and other countries like her, have the greatest political systems in the world. Representative republics, constitutional democracies, etc. are not perfect, but they are better than the alternatives.

Work, like your starving!
Live, like there's no tomarrow!
Love, like you'll never see them again! :)

As always.......
 
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