A Tale Retold

[BlackShanglan]

It's giving me no end of difficulty, and I suppose that at the heart of it is the question of whether there's ever a good artistic reason to retell a story in print.

The piece in question is an old fairy tale of which I have always been fond. It's not one that many people know, so I think that re-telling it has at least the justification of bringing it to more people. It also seems to me to have decent erotic / romantic potential, so re-telling it as a more detailed story rather than as a fairy tale might have some purpose.

It's not going all that well, though. It feels draggy to me and much too long already (only about halfway through), and yet I can't see how to cut much more without making what's meant to be a gradual change of heart seem rootless and too sudden. It feels like it's losing all of the compact simplicity of a fairy tale without gaining the right things for a short story.

Has anyone attempted something like this before? Any general thoughts on whether re-telling ever really works? I keep see-sawing between vision and execution as the source of the problem.

 

[Liar]

I guess it might depend on how you usually write a story. Are you an architect or an explorer? Do you construct an outline and fill it with text, or do you let the plot and characters take you wherever it goes?

 

[jomar]

Boy, I totally get the vision-execution thing. But sure, stories are freshened up and successfully retold all the time, as you know. Maybe it's time for a plot device.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I guess it might depend on how you usually write a story. Are you an architect or an explorer? Do you construct an outline and fill it with text, or do you let the plot and characters take you wherever it goes?

Some of each. I tend to start with characters and vision and ponder that a good while in both written and unwritten pre-drafting. Before I draft I generally have at least a mental image of the flow of the story from start to finish, because in the past not having an ending has really trashed some good works.

My pre-writing is generally heaps of scrawled notes in any old order, partly a very rough telling of the plot and partly lists of quotes, images, or ideas that I want to include. Once the heap seems to have everything I want in it somewhere, I sort it into an outline. I keep that with me as I draft to help me remember all of the details and keep seeing the shape of the whole - that's important to me. As I make changes in the drafting process, I go back and annotate or revise the outline.

Hmmm. Maybe that's my issue. I was certainly thinking it earlier today - that I was getting lost in a heap of details and losing my sense of the shape of the thing as a whole. Once I'm mired like that, I get stuck because I can come up with a hundred different things that could be fun to include, and without a path showing me the way forward I'm baffled by array of choices.

Yes. I'm pretty sure that's it, or at least that that is part of the problem. I've got the character in a fish-out-of-water situation, and she does need to face some of the differences in this new life. The problem is that right now she's facing all of them, and without a clear emotional purpose in each. I think I need to narrow this down not just to the elements that are in the original fairy tale, or the elements that are most physically different, but to the elements that most strongly drive and evoke the emotional changes I want to see in the character. I need to get a big list of the potential events and then pare it down to a fine-tuned trio.

Thanks, Liar! To the Bat-outline, Robin!

 

[DeeZire]

It sounds like you're dealing with the difference between contrived and inspired. I just finished the Stephen King Book 'On Writing' where he talks about starting stories with no outline, no notes, just a concept - for example "what if two people were trapped inside a car by a rabid dog?" - Cujo is the result. From the initial concept he writes the characters and then lets the characters motivate the action, never knowing for sure what's going to happen until it does happen. (Or so he says, but he is, after all, a professional liar.)

In your case, you're already working within a framework. Perhaps if you changed the 'fish out of water' scenario, or changed a character trait, so you'd have to start more from scratch? Or distilled it down to a flashfic concept, and then fleshed it out a bit?

Just in case you haven't read this LIT author, I'm leaving the link. Her stories are like little fairy tales, in the sense that they generally have a moral or a twist.

Dafney DeWitt http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=17146&page=submissions

Good luck writing.

 

[BlackShanglan]

It sounds like you're dealing with the difference between contrived and inspired. I just finished the Stephen King Book 'On Writing' where he talks about starting stories with no outline, no notes, just a concept - for example "what if two people were trapped inside a car by a rabid dog?" - Cujo is the result. From the initial concept he writes the characters and then lets the characters motivate the action, never knowing for sure what's going to happen until it does happen. (Or so he says, but he is, after all, a professional liar.)

I think this is one of those great divides in writing. It's a process that I've heard many writers describe as essential to them, and many others describe as extremely destructive. Given the great divergence of opinion, I think that the truth must lie in differing abilities making different processes necessary.

I'm a classic ADD writer. *laugh* I only realized the ADD part later in life, but then it all made sense. I don't generally have difficulty getting the characters to tell me things that they'd like to do that fit in their character; if I let them, they will rabbit on all day and night. My problem is the typical ADD dilemma: plenty of energy, imagination, and invention, but difficulty focusing. In the time it takes me to write one scene, the naughty characters will be off making a dozen more, not necessarily in any logicial connection to each other. If I don't establish a clear direction to the piece, I end up with a heap of scenes, largely enjoyable, no clear plot or advancement of action, and a very difficult time establishing order because I hate to cut any of the pretty scenes I've just made. I need to tame the invention more than I usually need to evoke it.

That makes me quite like your flashfic concept. Cutting this thing back to a very tight, very lean state sounds like a good way to pull out of the morass of ever-proliferating plausible but non-plot-essential "interest scenes" and get back onto dry ground. I like the thought of re-examining character traits, as well. Perhaps the simplicity of the fairy tale needs to be re-examined if I'm going to make this a longer piece; people tend to be very simply drawn in fairy tales, but perhaps more complexity is due to the heroine here.

Thanks very much for the link, too! I'm not familiar with the author, but I think that I soon shall be.

 

[DesertPirate]

Interesting idea and I wish you luck.

 

[gauchecritic]

I have three 'fairy tales' on lit and I'm exceedingly glad that I decided to put them in the humour category. They just kept going on and on and on and the only reason they drew any where near a conclusion (a rushed and obviously ran for conclusion) was that they had deadlines

Fortunately I had the luxury of them being well known fairy tales and was able to meander all over the shop knowing that the reader would be familiar with the plot line and would hopefully accept the digressions because they were 1, amusing and 2, in keeping.

But I like to think that I actually drew some pretty decent characters for these stories, however pastiche they were.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Thanks, Pirate.

You know, Gauche, that's a good point. It's a very different thing doing a little-known tale because I actually have to tell it. If I was doing "Snow White" or "Rapunzel," I could more sort of riff on it.

Hmmm. Maybe I can tell my story but riff on the general elements of fairy tales everyone is familiar with. I'll mull it over. I don't want to go broadly humorous, but I often miss the role that humor could play in my work. Can't help it; I was born with a long face.

 

[SweetWitch]

Sethp and meg1 recently started a project on their "Writing Project-New writers needed" thread. It's all about writing somewhat clean adult versions of fairy tales.

Being intrigued, I wrote my take on Snow White and Rose Red. It wasn't easy, but I enjoyed it immensely. Many questions came to mind. Did I wish to keep the rustic feel of the story? Should there be the non-human aspect of the bear that turns back into a man? What about the magical background; should I keep it?

Then there was the story itself: Two girls, living in a cottage in the woods happen upon a bear in need of warmth, food and comfort in the dead of winter. They feed him, let him sleep by their fire every night and help destroy the enemy. Then he is turned back into a man, brings his brother into the picture and they all live happily ever after. How does that translate into something more modern and more in tune with our perceptions of the world?

Once all those decisions were made and with the best of intentions, I sat down to write. The characters took over the story, anyway, and did their own thing. That's so like fictional characters.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Then there was the story itself: Two girls, living in a cottage in the woods happen upon a bear in need of warmth, food and comfort in the dead of winter. They feed him, let him sleep by their fire every night and help destroy the enemy. Then he is turned back into a man, brings his brother into the picture and they all live happily ever after. How does that translate into something more modern and more in tune with our perceptions of the world?

I always loved that story as a child, but I could never figure out why anyone involved wanted to turn him back into a man. He was a magic bear! How cool is that?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I've retold lots of stuff... myths, fairy tales, nursery rhymes... I like to give them new endings, or to combine myths to make them turn into something new. That's especially fun with the Greek myths, because they contradict themselves all the time, so I can thread all sorts of things together the way I want. I also like taking them out of historical context, sort of like remaking Romeo and Juliet with Leonardo Dicaprio (only, you know... actually good )... or putting Queen on the soundtrack as a background in A Knight's Tale. So I like my characters to use more current vernacular, to be funny and interesting in modern ways folks wouldn't expect in a myth or fairy tale. I also enjoy telling fairy tales as modern remakes. We had a chain a while back (and I got so bogged down with eXcessica stuff, I never finished mine!) that did just that, and there were some great ideas.

 

[SweetWitch]

I always loved that story as a child, but I could never figure out why anyone involved wanted to turn him back into a man. He was a magic bear! How cool is that?

I know! He was so cool as a talking bear. After that, he was just a man.

 

[neonlyte]

It's giving me no end of difficulty, and I suppose that at the heart of it is the question of whether there's ever a good artistic reason to retell a story in print.

The piece in question is an old fairy tale of which I have always been fond. It's not one that many people know, so I think that re-telling it has at least the justification of bringing it to more people. It also seems to me to have decent erotic / romantic potential, so re-telling it as a more detailed story rather than as a fairy tale might have some purpose.

It's not going all that well, though. It feels draggy to me and much too long already (only about halfway through), and yet I can't see how to cut much more without making what's meant to be a gradual change of heart seem rootless and too sudden. It feels like it's losing all of the compact simplicity of a fairy tale without gaining the right things for a short story.

Has anyone attempted something like this before? Any general thoughts on whether re-telling ever really works? I keep see-sawing between vision and execution as the source of the problem.

All stories are a re-telling. Deliberate re-telling of a printed story is a different exercise, I presume you have some incite to reveal? Layers of complexity beyond the simple scope of the original?

You do set yourself some tasks, please complete... some of us are anxious readers in need of creative stimulus.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Before reading and replying to others, a quick note to myself:

Pacing. Maybe that's the problem. I've been assuming that in order to show a gradual change in the female lead's feelings, I need to slow down the pace of the story - gradual development being suited to a slower pace. Maybe that's not true. When pace increases, readers are more willing to fill in gaps. Maybe the problem is that the pace is too slow and so readers would seem logically to expect every tiny detail of her changing impressions, whereas at a faster pace, they'd be willing to assume some of the change themselves?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Before reading and replying to others, a quick note to myself:

Pacing. Maybe that's the problem. I've been assuming that in order to show a gradual change in the female lead's feelings, I need to slow down the pace of the story - gradual development being suited to a slower pace. Maybe that's not true. When pace increases, readers are more willing to fill in gaps. Maybe the problem is that the pace is too slow and so readers would seem logically to expect every tiny detail of her changing impressions, whereas at a faster pace, they'd be willing to assume some of the change themselves?

Agreed. And as a reader, I have to say, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaate slooooooooow stories. I skip things. I find myself thinking, blah blah, okay okay just tell the story, wouldja? I've got a Halloween one doing that now, too. It draaaaaaaaaaaaags. It's boring ME. Not a good sign.

 

[BlackShanglan]

All stories are a re-telling. Deliberate re-telling of a printed story is a different exercise, I presume you have some incite to reveal? Layers of complexity beyond the simple scope of the original?

You do set yourself some tasks, please complete... some of us are anxious readers in need of creative stimulus.

*laugh* Thank you very much, Neon, for the encouragement. (And hurrah to the wife unit for her talk at the museum!)

I think I do have things to say with this. It's a little tricky balancing it out. I want to share a story that I've always enjoyed, but I want people to see the beauty in it, and the original has a few elements that to my adult eye are problematic. I'm trying to bring a little more parity and emotional depth to it so that it becomes something that still works in the eyes of a modern audience. Knowing where to tinker with it (ha ha - sorry, there's a tinker in it) and where not to is proving a little trickier than I thought.

It's a good point, though, to think about what I want to achieve. I think part of me keeps swaying toward adding more eroticism to it, but when I really ask, "Why would I add sex into the story?" the only answer I generally get is "Because this is Literotica." Not a good answer, I think.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Agreed. And as a reader, I have to say, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaate slooooooooow stories. I skip things. I find myself thinking, blah blah, okay okay just tell the story, wouldja? I've got a Halloween one doing that now, too. It draaaaaaaaaaaaags. It's boring ME. Not a good sign.

I need to get a character through a major shift in both her view of class and humanity and her basic focus (away from self and toward thinking of others). I am open to any pointers on how to do this at a decent pace!

It's a fairy tale, so I think that that helps readers to expect some compression, but it's still quite a challenge to me. It needs to feel like a deep, sincere, and profound change, because that's most of the point of the story. To me, it's what the original is a bit short in: a sense that her experiences don't just break her pride, but also help her to become a better and happier person.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I need to get a character through a major shift in both her view of class and humanity and her basic focus (away from self and toward thinking of others). I am open to any pointers on how to do this at a decent pace!

Usually some drastic happenstance works to change someone's perspective. It's rarely an internal lightbulb going off all by itself... there's usually an external catalyst pulling the chain.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Usually some drastic happenstance works to change someone's perspective. It's rarely an internal lightbulb going off all by itself... there's usually an external catalyst pulling the chain.

*nods*

Yes, I've got the chain of events ... it's more the expression of her changing nature that's tricky to me, if that makes any sense. I can show what events change her pretty easily, but I want let the reader look into her head and see the little changes inside of her gradually piling up - how she feels as her perceptions shift, what internal battles have to be fought and won or lost for her resistence to finally erode completely. I'm afraid of making it too pat. I don't want to lose the sense that it's more than just someone being forced to deal with a change of life; it's someone realizing that this change, however much she fought it, is actually a path to greater happiness.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

*nods*

Yes, I've got the chain of events ... it's more the expression of her changing nature that's tricky to me, if that makes any sense. I can show what events change her pretty easily, but I want let the reader look into her head and see the little changes inside of her gradually piling up - how she feels as her perceptions shift, what internal battles have to be fought and won or lost for her resistence to finally erode completely. I'm afraid of making it too pat. I don't want to lose the sense that it's more than just someone being forced to deal with a change of life; it's someone realizing that this change, however much she fought it, is actually a path to greater happiness.

I don't think it has to be so complicated. Remember the first rule of fiction writing, right? Show don't tell. Her actions and emotions will tell us how her perception is changing... won't they? I don't think we necessarily need long internal monologues about the shift... just a few thoughts, here and there, interspersed with the action, should do it...

 

[BlackShanglan]

I don't think it has to be so complicated. Remember the first rule of fiction writing, right? Show don't tell. Her actions and emotions will tell us how her perception is changing... won't they? I don't think we necessarily need long internal monologues about the shift... just a few thoughts, here and there, interspersed with the action, should do it...

*nods* I think that's the tricky bit. I'm trying to keep it action-focused, but it's tough to show complex emotional changes that way, and tougher to do it in a tight span of pages. It's the right thing to do, but the actual doing is a bugger. *laugh* How does a woman sweep a floor in such a way as to indicate that she does it from a sense of contrition laced with underlying resistence and some confusion about why she is doing it, given that she still hopes that her father will change his mind about abandoning her, yet is starting to think that, horribly, he might not?

I'll get there, I hope. It's just rough going. It's that bit where you really have to earn your keep. I think that thus far I've worked hard to do action rather than lengthy thought-passages, but my desire to show complexity of thought has led to an over-proliferation of actions whose only purpose is to show the thoughts behind them. I need to get it tighter.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

*nods* I think that's the tricky bit. I'm trying to keep it action-focused, but it's tough to show complex emotional changes that way, and tougher to do it in a tight span of pages. It's the right way to do it, but the actual doing is a bugger. *laugh*

I'll get there, I think. It's just rough going.

Well... good luck with that!

"Writing is a solitary occupation"...

 

[gauchecritic]

It looks to me like you're making it more complex than it needs to be, horsey.

and there's also the the fact of not even noticing a change or the reasons and only being aware of the change by having it pointed out.

For instance; (don't argue with the premises just take them as read) Little girls flirt with their fathers. As they grow they often take their 'flirting' cues from their mother or other older people relationships. Until eventually they subsume the flirtation aspect and look merely for approval.

So the stages for this might be. 1) Touching, hugging, close contact. 2) Provocative behaviour/dress and 3) Finding an 'approved' husband/having kids.

The girl is unlikely, at any point, to know her own motivations. She is highly unlikely to make historical comparisons about her methods. All that she will know is that certain actions get reward and at some point stop getting reward, so she has to adapt not to her father's whims but to who she is or has become.

Then there are exteriors to consider in this scenario. What onlookers think. Fashion trends. Peer groups. Dating etc.

The thing is, personal interaction the world over, is driven by ego and the biggest drive, in this case, is validation.

So to get back to my original point as it pertains to the above, inside the girl's head there is actually nothing going on that has any lableable intent that is distinguishable from any other relationship in terms of 'stroking' or craving validation.

Stroking is a term used by, I think, Desmond Morris, to indicate actions by individuals which are used to elicit mutual validations.

Any use?

 

[BlackShanglan]

Gauche, I'm with you on the normal development of human behavior. I'm not so sure that sharp reversals come about that way, though, especially in adults - and that is what I need here.

Maybe some particulars are necessary. I feel like I'm wobbling around in vague generalizations.

In the fairy tale, a young princess is so haughty, selfish, and cruel to everyone around her, including every noble who comes to court her, that her father finally swears that he will marry her off to the first beggar he finds at the castle gates, and he does.

In the original tale, she spends some time living as a beggar's wife and having the snottiness worn out of her. Once she's been made to be really sorry for being nasty, the beggar reveals himself to be a king to whom she was particularly unpleasant and says he's been put her through all of this for her own good. They live happily ever after.

A key change I want to make is in the timing of her change of heart. Anyone can be glad to see a king when she thought she was stuck with a beggar, even if it is a king who (in the original) reveals the truth by dragging her in front of her court still dressed in her beggar's rags while he's all shined up and looking splendid. I feel that this will be more appealing to a modern audience if the princess really gets to grips with the fact that being a spoiled brat is an ugly thing and that this beggar guy, while poor and of low class, is a decent person with a better approach to life.

What I'm having trouble with is getting her through those emotional stages quickly but convincingly. I see her as initially highly resistent to any suggestion that she needs to change anything about herself and half-incredulous that this really could be a permanent situation. I need to move her from that to someone who makes some key realizations without it seeming too pat or unlikely. I think the defining moment is when she first starts looking at herself from outside; she can learn all sorts of things pretty quickly once she does, but it's a bit draggy right now getting her to that point because there's so much resistence in the character herself.

Hmmm. Maybe I need to make her have a stronger sense more early on that this is really happening and not about to change? It's logical that a spoiled child would keep expecting her father to show up at any minute to fix it all (and be ready to throw a shoe at his head when he does), but I think that's part of what is slowing her development. People accustomed to getting anything they want tend not to start looking at themselves for solutions until they've lost all hope of someone else fixing things for them.

Or maybe it's pacing again. Right now I'm going day by day in some detail. Maybe I should be moving her faster.

*chases tail* Ooh shiny!