A surprisingly, um, sensitive bunch.

[Lancecastor]

"For a group of people into whips, chains, leather, and pain, they're a surprisingly, um, sensitive bunch.
~ Anon."

I saw those words quoted here recently, and thought it an apt description of the way I feel about communicating with some of the "regulars" on Lit's BDSM Forum...and thought it might merit some open discussion in the form of a thread.

I do not practice 24/7 TPE BDSM, but am an alpha dom by nature and enjoy kink. As such, I have a cross section of both vanilla and scene friends and acquaintances. I believe I move freely amongst them all IRL and am as welcome in a dungeon as on a 19th hole.

However, I sometimes feel an air of "twitchiness" amongst Lit BDSM regulars....a fear, a defensiveness, a quickness to assume that words mean harm.

And I wonder what that's all about...where does it come from?

IRL, sceners I know are not anonymous. In the clubs I've frequented over the years the attendees don't use avatars or fake names.

Here on Lit, we are all effectively anonymous.

So the fear of being found out is quite low if you have something you want to hide.

Is it fear of ridicule? If so, those who feel ridiculed here have pretty sharp tongues themselves, I've noticed...and usually a number of friends to come to their rescue.

As an aside....In terms of snarkiness, the non-lurking subs here have seem to have no problem speaking up...and in fact the vocal subs here are in my experience quicker with a flaming snarl than the dom(mes)....so I don't think it's a D/s communication or style difference.

Is it fear of actual harm? Again, I don't understand how that can happen...it's safer here than IRL by a couple of orders of magnitude.

So....where does this high degree of sensitivity come from?

The Big Sticky at the top of this forum refers to "fear" and "safety" several times....and I'm sure it's more than fear of the GB types "invading" this space.

So...as the quote at the top of this post asks more subtlely than I would:

"How is it that people who revel in talk (and we presume, skin-to-skin practise) of all manner of physical pain and torture...can be such babies on an online Board?"

I think it's a marvellously ironic dichotomy....and I look forward to the discussion....because I don't know about you, but IRL, I find BDSM people to be far less defensively sensitive than here.

Lance "A Penny for Your Thoughts....and a Dime For You To Keep Them To Yourself." Castor

 

[cellis]

Lance I am coming close to loving you.

I read your posts avidly. While some think that you are negative (myself included in the beginning), I tend to think that you, as an outside observer looking in, see us for who we really are.

We are highly protective of our domain. It was hard fought to get to this point. We protect it from those that we see as threat to the purity and intent of the thread. We attack, sometimes without provocation, those that we see as a threat to the continuation of the thread.

I don't think that anonymity or the lack there of has anything to do with it. Certainly, some of us have high profile jobs, or jobs where BDSM activities, if it were known that we practised such a thing, would cause the loss of our occupation.

I have met others on line. I have no fear of discovery. I am pretty much an open book. But then I don't have small children that could possibly be taken away from me or a high profile job or work with children.

I am pretty much like every one else I know in R/L BDSM. I don't have anything to hide and I certainly don't have a reputation to protect.

 

[CarolineOh]

Once again, Lance, I would love to converse with you, but if the starting point is that I need accept a premise that those who disagree with you are guilty of "snarkiness" and "flaming snarls" I see little point to it.

 

[Quint]

Why should I leave my manners at the door just because here I am a pseudonymous voice?

I don't fear being misunderstood as much as I value my words too much to permit them to be seen as anything other than I intended. Hence my tendency to wordiness. I don't agonize about whether or not Cellis will still like me the day after I teasingly comment on pony play. (That was a randomly selected comment, Cellis! Please don't hate me! )

I constantly wonder how much of my personality is based on my sexuality. I enjoy being a leader and making decisions and being an equal in my dealings with others. Yet I take great pleasure in serving and seeing to other people's comfort and happiness. I suppose that naturally reflects itself here. You won't find me instigating because that's OOC. But I do speak firmly for myself when I feel misunderstood or wronged.

 

[monster666]

For sure, I've over-reacted from time to time protecting the domain. I am not so sure I care about a thread so much as an idea it might envelop.

We are highly protective of our domain. It was hard fought to get to this point. We protect it from those that we see as threat to the purity and intent of the thread. We attack, sometimes without provocation, those that we see as a threat to the continuation of the thread.

 

[artful]

Giving you my dime

I have pondered the same.

 

[Lancecastor]

The funny thing is...

Lance I am coming close to loving you.

I read your posts avidly. While some think that you are negative (myself included in the beginning), I tend to think that you, as an outside observer looking in, see us for who we really are.

We are highly protective of our domain. It was hard fought to get to this point. We protect it from those that we see as threat to the purity and intent of the thread. We attack, sometimes without provocation, those that we see as a threat to the continuation of the thread.

I don't think that anonymity or the lack there of has anything to do with it. Certainly, some of us have high profile jobs, or jobs where BDSM activities, if it were known that we practised such a thing, would cause the loss of our occupation.

I have met others on line. I have no fear of discovery. I am pretty much an open book. But then I don't have small children that could possibly be taken away from me or a high profile job or work with children.

I am pretty much like every one else I know in R/L BDSM. I don't have anything to hide and I certainly don't have a reputation to protect.

...I'm the prototypical "glass is half full", sunny, Dale Carnegie optimist...though yes, sometimes my direct approach is perceived as cold or negative.

Such nice words, thankyou Cellis. (an aside, based on another note I saw....I called long-haired women "pony Grrls" for years...until I learned about Pony Girls)

I was hoping to hear something about the need to protect this part of Lit...because it's always been obvious that it's been highly protected, since its' inception.

Perhaps that's been necessary to keep youngsters, fools and the closed minded at bay...anonymity online also brings out the "mean" in some, it's true.


LC

 

[Lancecastor]

I don't know about you...

Once again, Lance, I would love to converse with you, but if the starting point is that I need accept a premise that those who disagree with you are guilty of "snarkiness" and "flaming snarls" I see little point to it.

....but I do find some who disagree with my thoughts and views are just plain rude about it and of the "If you don't like it you should go away."school of thought, which I find well, presumptious and selfish and closed-minded.

Note: I said "some" , not all.

So, I see no need for you to accept my prmise, real or misinterpreted, in order to dscuss anything with me.

Therefore, I find it hard to wrap my head around your taking the time to post to say you're not going to post.

yaknow what I mean, jellybean?

LC

 

[MsWorthy]

"For a group of people into whips, chains, leather, and pain, they're a surprisingly, um, sensitive bunch.
~ Anon."

I saw those words quoted here recently, and thought it an apt description of the way I feel about communicating with some of the "regulars" on Lit's BDSM Forum...and thought it might merit some open discussion in the form of a thread.

I do not practice 24/7 TPE BDSM, but am an alpha dom by nature and enjoy kink. As such, I have a cross section of both vanilla and scene friends and acquaintances. I believe I move freely amongst them all IRL and am as welcome in a dungeon as on a 19th hole.

However, I sometimes feel an air of "twitchiness" amongst Lit BDSM regulars....a fear, a defensiveness, a quickness to assume that words mean harm.

I believe that any group of people who is ostracized by society tends to be defensive about that group's right to exist. With this right to exist, the group expects to be treated with respect and allowed freedom of expression. Not to express itself "in your (society's) face," but in our own little corners of the world. In these corners (BB, chatrooms, lists, clubs, munches), we expect to meet people who are similar to us more than different from us, in at least, our basic desires/beliefs about how we live.

When someone comes into one of our little corners of the world and begins to criticize (or seems to - surely it is easy to understand how someone who is criticized often might feel criticized more quickly than people who do not live with prejudice), it triggers that fight or flight instinct and many of us dig our heels in and fight for our hard won right to exist (online we are allowed to exist, at least). Defensiveness is easy to understand when one realizes that if the one criticizing is "nilla," her/his position carries the weight of the majority, and majority rule is often used as a license to harm/destroy that which is different (as a lesbian I am well aware of this fact).

And I wonder what that's all about...where does it come from?

IRL, sceners I know are not anonymous. In the clubs I've frequented over the years the attendees don't use avatars or fake names.

Are these "sceners" personal friends of yours or were you brought to their space by friends that are known by this group? Have you not earned their trust; thereby, assuring them that you mean them no harm? Many of us online have no such assurances (I am not speaking of you specifically, just a generic "you" when dealing with people online) as to your trustworthiness.

Additionally, is it possible that these people do not have young children or careers to lose, if exposed.

Here on Lit, we are all effectively anonymous.

So the fear of being found out is quite low if you have something you want to hide.

I, personally, know of two people who make every effort to find out the true identities of the submissives they meet online (and are successful). If they can out find this information, someone with less concern for safety, and perhaps out of revenge/hatred/intolerance, can too. The only way to ensure any level of safety is to be anonymous online.

Is it fear of ridicule? If so, those who feel ridiculed here have pretty sharp tongues themselves, I've noticed...and usually a number of friends to come to their rescue.

This seems to be a bit of personal finger-pointing, rather a general observation, since you include friends coming to the rescue and having sharp tongues themselves. How can you answer a response until you have heard it, unless you have aimed this question to a particular few and think you know what their response will be? Perhaps this is the reason some feel sensitive. They feel singled out and criticized.

This seems like a thinly veiled criticism to me and I haven't been around long enough to get to know anyone or come to anyone's rescue. Am I being too sensitive and seeing the "harm" (by "harm" I assume you mean negative connotation) in your words when none are meant? Perhaps, but since I do not know you or anyone else here well enough to feel anyone is targeting me or my lifestyle, I doubt that I am being too sensitive.

As an aside....In terms of snarkiness, the non-lurking subs here have seem to have no problem speaking up...and in fact the vocal subs here are in my experience quicker with a flaming snarl than the dom(mes)....so I don't think it's a D/s communication or style difference.

You have mentioned the subs being "vocal" in two threads that I have read just in the few weeks I have been reading here and they seem like negative comments to me. I must say, it seems to me that you have an issue with submissive people (at least the female subs) speaking their minds. Your comments remind me of many of the male (and some female) dom/mes I see in chat sometimes. Because their preference is for their subs to be more on the quiet-take-the back-seat types (and btw, I prefer this type myself) they seem to think that all submissives should behave this way and when they don't they are criticized (overtly or by implication).

Is it fear of actual harm? Again, I don't understand how that can happen...it's safer here than IRL by a couple of orders of magnitude.

So....where does this high degree of sensitivity come from?

The Big Sticky at the top of this forum refers to "fear" and "safety" several times....and I'm sure it's more than fear of the GB types "invading" this space.

So...as the quote at the top of this post asks more subtlely than I would:

"How is it that people who revel in talk (and we presume, skin-to-skin practise) of all manner of physical pain and torture...can be such babies on an online Board?"

How does being "people who revel in talk (and we presume, skin-to-skin practise) of all manner of physical pain and torture" relate to being what you call "babies" (this is obviously negative name-calling, do you mean no harm by it?)?

For the sake of discussion, I will assume you are suggesting that these people (babies) are being overly-sensitive (by your standards). I wonder why you think that someone into "all manner of physical pain and torture" can not or "should not" have their feelings hurt (easily or otherwise)?

I think it's a marvellously ironic dichotomy....and I look forward to the discussion....because I don't know about you, but IRL, I find BDSM people to be far less defensively sensitive than here.

Lance "A Penny for Your Thoughts....and a Dime For You To Keep Them To Yourself." Castor

BTW Lance, I find your observations thought-provoking, thank you for offering them.

~wonders if anyone will take the dime~

 

[Lancecastor]

Agreed.

Why should I leave my manners at the door just because here I am a pseudonymous voice?

.

Agreed. I like to think my "voice" here is the same as "there"...but I wonder if there is some reticence inherent in perceiving written messages from avs online....no body language, cant look you in the eye, inflection, tone....are all hard to "read".

And, unless the poster is tres articulate and possessed of excellent comprehension, there is always room to perceive someone and their message completely differently.

yes?

LC

 

[Lancecastor]

I think....

I believe that any group of people who is ostracized by society tends to be defensive about that group's right to exist. With this right to exist, the group expects to be treated with respect and allowed freedom of expression. Not to express itself "in your (society's) face," but in our own little corners of the world. In these corners (BB, chatrooms, lists, clubs, munches), we expect to meet people who are similar to us more than different from us, in at least, our basic desires/beliefs about how we live.

When someone comes into one of our little corners of the world and begins to criticize (or seems to - surely it is easy to understand how someone who is criticized often might feel criticized more quickly than people who do not live with prejudice), it triggers that fight or flight instinct and many of us dig our heels in and fight for our hard won right to exist (online we are allowed to exist, at least). Defensiveness is easy to understand when one realizes that if the one criticizing is "nilla," her/his position carries the weight of the majority, and majority rule is often used as a license to harm/destroy that which is different (as a lesbian I am well aware of this fact).



Are these "sceners" personal friends of yours or were you brought to their space by friends that are known by this group? Have you not earned their trust; thereby, assuring them that you mean them no harm? Many of us online have no such assurances (I am not speaking of you specifically, just a generic "you" when dealing with people online) as to your trustworthiness.

Additionally, is it possible that these people do not have young children or careers to lose, if exposed.




I, personally, know of two people who make every effort to find out the true identities of the submissives they meet online (and are successful). If they can out find this information, someone with less concern for safety, and perhaps out of revenge/hatred/intolerance, can too. The only way to ensure any level of safety is to be anonymous online.




This seems to be a bit of personal finger-pointing, rather a general observation, since you include friends coming to the rescue and having sharp tongues themselves. How can you answer a response until you have heard it, unless you have aimed this question to a particular few and think you know what their response will be? Perhaps this is the reason some feel sensitive. They feel singled out and criticized.

This seems like a thinly veiled criticism to me and I haven't been around long enough to get to know anyone or come to anyone's rescue. Am I being too sensitive and seeing the "harm" (by "harm" I assume you mean negative connotation) in your words when none are meant? Perhaps, but since I do not know you or anyone else here well enough to feel anyone is targeting me or my lifestyle, I doubt that I am being too sensitive.




You have mentioned the subs being "vocal" in two threads that I have read just in the few weeks I have been reading here and they seem like negative comments to me. I must say, it seems to me that you have an issue with submissive people (at least the female subs) speaking their minds. Your comments remind me of many of the male (and some female) dom/mes I see in chat sometimes. Because their preference is for their subs to be more on the quiet-take-the back-seat types (and btw, I prefer this type myself) they seem to think that all submissives should behave this way and when they don't they are criticized (overtly or by implication).




How does being "people who revel in talk (and we presume, skin-to-skin practise) of all manner of physical pain and torture" relate to being what you call "babies" (this is obviously negative name-calling, do you mean no harm by it?)?

For the sake of discussion, I will assume you are suggesting that these people (babies) are being overly-sensitive (by your standards). I wonder why you think that someone into "all manner of physical pain and torture" can not or "should not" have their feelings hurt (easily or otherwise)?



BTW Lance, I find your observations thought-provoking, thank you for offering them.

~wonders if anyone will take the dime~

..that the academic portions of your post are well-reasoned and insightful, and I am in agreement with your thoughts.

The portions that relate to me and my alleged and/or purported thoughts or feelings about others are all pretty much 180 degrees away from where I come from as a person.

One example: the reference to "vocal", strong willed subs I find simply humourous and interesting....because some of those sub "voices", from here, sound more like Dommes to me. My personal preference is and always has been for stubborn, strong-willed, high self esteem women....who happen to be 100% estrogen based grrly grrl units in the bedroom.

LC

 

[Quint]

But of course.

I don't presume to more perfection of clarity than I possess.

And yes, we do miss out on a great deal of the story by relying solely upon word choice and other written details--but then again, we're here because we're Literoticians. We have the ability to make our words strong enough to overcome the obstacles of distance and facelessness. There is and will always be an edge of nervousness dealing with new people, which I think is the defensive behavior you're referring to. But I don't see this hindering, obscuring, or damaging our communication here.

So I suppose pride and patience are the two necessary components to this answer: I take so much pride in my thoughts that I always strive to render them in the most apt words I know. I also take pride in this forum as a whole and so I want to contribute to it as much as I benefit from it. But I need patience to take the time to understand, not just rattle off my impressive vocabulary. Thus I grow both as a member of this forum and in real life with the experience and knowledge I gained here.

Edited for relevance. I do ramble, don't I?

 

[CarolineOh]

Re: Re: A surprisingly, um, sensitive bunch.

You have mentioned the subs being "vocal" in two threads that I have read just in the few weeks I have been reading here and they seem like negative comments to me. I must say, it seems to me that you have an issue with submissive people (at least the female subs) speaking their minds. Your comments remind me of many of the male (and some female) dom/mes I see in chat sometimes. Because their preference is for their subs to be more on the quiet-take-the back-seat types (and btw, I prefer this type myself) they seem to think that all submissives should behave this way and when they don't they are criticized (overtly or by implication).

Thank you.

 

[Quint]

LanceCastor said:

One example: the reference to "vocal", strong willed subs I find simply humourous and interesting....because some of those sub "voices", from here, sound more like Dommes to me. My personal preference is and always has been for stubborn, strong-willed, high self esteem women....who happen to be 100% estrogen based grrly grrl units in the bedroom.

I do know where you're coming from. I was reading a post today made by somebody who described himself as (paraphrasing) quiet and withdrawn like a good sub should be. Without the facial expression and tone of voice, I don't know if his tongue was firmly planted in his cheek when he said that or if he honestly believed that a sub worth their salt is a meek little thing. I'm not. [Insert self-promotion here]

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: I think....

..that the academic portions of your post are well-reasoned and insightful, and I am in agreement with your thoughts.

The portions that relate to me and my alleged and/or purported thoughts or feelings about others are all pretty much 180 degrees away from where I come from as a person.

One example: the reference to "vocal", strong willed subs I find simply humourous and interesting....because some of those sub "voices", from here, sound more like Dommes to me. My personal preference is and always has been for stubborn, strong-willed, high self esteem women....who happen to be 100% estrogen based grrly grrl units in the bedroom.

LC

~I notice that you didn't include "vocal" in your preference...lol~

~wonders what your definition of a "100% estrogen based grrly grrl unit..." is~

 

[morninggirl5]

Re: I think....

One example: the reference to "vocal", strong willed subs I find simply humourous and interesting....because some of those sub "voices", from here, sound more like Dommes to me. My personal preference is and always has been for stubborn, strong-willed, high self esteem women....who happen to be 100% estrogen based grrly grrl units in the bedroom.

LC

That is the problem. And it's why some of us read your posts the way we do. You question the submissiveness of posters. You've stated so on more than one occasion.

We get enough of that from the "Kneel slut" wanna-be's all over the web. We don't want that here, we need a place where we can speak freely without being questioned and the "prove your submissiveness" atmosphere that pervades most online places. No "subbie couches" here, we are all able to speak freely.

You have mentioned the subs being "vocal" in two threads that I have read just in the few weeks I have been reading here and they seem like negative comments to me. I must say, it seems to me that you have an issue with submissive people (at least the female subs) speaking their minds. Your comments remind me of many of the male (and some female) dom/mes I see in chat sometimes. Because their preference is for their subs to be more on the quiet-take-the back-seat types (and btw, I prefer this type myself) they seem to think that all submissives should behave this way and when they don't they are criticized (overtly or by implication).

I'm glad that i'm not the only one that has this perception.

 

[MzChrista]

Whats a grrly grrl unit, is that like them ones with the machine gun tits in Austin Powers?

 

[Ebonyfire]

See?

LC grows on you, like lichen!

Ebony <Who thinks LC is da bomb!>

 

[Ebonyfire]

My 2 cents worth!

I belong to other lists, and I post there too. I personally do not have the fear(if tha tis the right word) of outsiders that others may appear to have.

I feel most of the time, I am one of the oursiders. But that is ok. If you are strong in your beliefs you can be an outsider and survive.

I just feel compelled to champion the type of FemDom that I enjoy.

Ebony

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: I think....

My personal preference is and always has been for stubborn, strong-willed, high self esteem women....who happen to be 100% estrogen based grrly grrl units in the bedroom.
LC

I personally am trying to get a visual of that (grrly grrl units) LOL

Eb < who plays with mnnly, mnn units>

 

[cellis]

Here's the deal as I see it....

Lance comes in and because he has no relationship with any of us and no investment in this forum, he is able to see us for who he percieves we are. And as it has been pointed out in a couple of other threads here lately, we have a tendency to be a closed group, and maybe not so nice all the time, either.

No one likes to have their shortcomings held up in their face, so Lance is seen as a little snarky (love that word) with a chip on his shoulder. I don't think this is true. I think he just tells things like they are, sort of our own BDSM Dr. Phil. And no one really wants to be on the recieving end of Dr. Phil.

He doesn't walk on eggshells, protecting sensitive egos. He treats us like the adults we are. He has brought provocative discussion, without flames to this forum.

Of couse this is just my opinion and I own it.

 

[CarolineOh]

I respect your opinion, Cellis, as always. But my experience is that anonymous trolls came to this baord with the intention of being hurtful and disruptive. Some of us expressed our feelings of misgiving and disappointment that this happened, and were upbraided by Lance for "whining" and "snivelling". When people objected to his insulting characterization, we were told , in essence, that we were not being submissive enough, as if we somehow owe deference to anyone who shows up here and announces themselves dominant. He has repeated that ridiculous canard in this thread. I have tried on several occasions to address this issue with him, and each time I have been patronized and seen my words twisted in misrepresentation.
So I hope you will understand that we do not all see the situation in the same light.

 

[seXieleXie]

"How is it that people who revel in talk (and we presume, skin-to-skin practise) of all manner of physical pain and torture...can be such babies on an online Board?"

I think it's a marvellously ironic dichotomy....and I look forward to the discussion....because I don't know about you, but IRL, I find BDSM people to be far less defensively sensitive than here.

note: being politically correct with gendeer pronouns is getting too difficult, so i'll use male pronouns for ease. i'm not talking about any specific person.

a lot of us here live a very closeted life when it comes to our sexuality. for some, online is the only place where one's kinks can be discussed freely with others of a like mind. i can see how that would set people up to be on the defensive. if the internet in general, or Lit specifically, is the only place where a person can be totally out about his enjoyment of BDSM, then it is hardly shocking that he doesn't want to spend all his time definding his point of view or his experiances.

perhaps those who are in a place that they can comfortably pactice BDSM in real life have developed a tougher skin in order to protect themselves from the inevitable reaction of the less open-minded people of the world. perhaps those who are online have discarded that tougher skin in order to be totally open and free.

IRL, sceners I know are not anonymous. In the clubs I've frequented over the years the attendees don't use avatars or fake names.

Here on Lit, we are all effectively anonymous.

So the fear of being found out is quite low if you have something you want to hide.

i beg to differ on this matter. the teachers have commented again and again that their jobs would be in jeopardy if they were discovered here. those of us who work in especially conservative or unforgiving enviroments are in the same boat. and finding out someone's identity on the internet is much easier than you apperantly think it is.

i had the opportunity to meet a couple of lit members in real life not long ago, and two of them remarked that they were concerned about all the personal information about them they had posted on Lit. a handful of careless disclosures can quickly add up to detailed information about where one lives or works, what one looks like, and so on and so forth. and since it happens a little bit at a time, it's difficult to erase those tracks.

okay that's enough out of me. so, i think you owe me a penny

 

[cellis]

Caroline I am sorry if that has been your experience.

I guess we all see things a little differently and that's is what makes us who we are.

I do not feel that I owe Lance or any one else here any deference other than what I would give in polite company. I don't bow and scrape even to my own Dom... well not all the time anyway... I am certainly not going to do that to anyone I don't know in RL.

I have seen the friction there and wondered about it's source, but I figured the two of you would work it out amonst yourselves.

I find that you a wonderful mind and I have yet to see you back down from anyone or anything... besides you got Sam and MzChrista on your side.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

I respect your opinion, Cellis, as always. But my experience is that anonymous trolls came to this baord with the intention of being hurtful and disruptive. Some of us expressed our feelings of misgiving and disappointment that this happened, and were upbraided by Lance for "whining" and "snivelling". When people objected to his insulting characterization, we were told , in essence, that we were not being submissive enough, as if we somehow owe deference to anyone who shows up here and announces themselves dominant. He has repeated that ridiculous canard in this thread. I have tried on several occasions to address this issue with him, and each time I have been patronized and seen my words twisted in misrepresentation.
So I hope you will understand that we do not all see the situation in the same light.

Caroline...I couldn't put it any better. I have a tendancy to avoid posting on any of Lance's threads. I personally don't take it well when my submissiveness is called into question by anyone other than my Master. I don't feel I have anything to prove to anyone but Him. Being as I do have a RL, skin to skin D/s relationship, no matter how new I am to the lifestyle, I don't answer to any Dom but my own.

This is just my opinion.....take it for what its worth.

dixi